Evil Trump avoided the draft during the Vietnam War

Compulsory military service is an assault on liberty, and as Milton Friedman argued, more expensive than a volunteer army. It turns out Trump was right to avoid it.

originally posted by: StallionDuck
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

War is war.... If you went or if you didn't shouldn't make a difference in your 'status'.

McCain was right... The lower class were the bullet catchers. The ones that could afford college, the rich and well off folk, directed those poor sods to catch the bullets.

Where is the honor in that? I'd rather live to protect my country than die trying to hold yours together.

You're a coward if your afraid of dying? Sorry... Vet here who lived through Desert Storm (as if that was really lethal for the US - yet a lot of us came home the same as when we left, physically and mentally) and I can honestly say that I'm ok with someone running away from war and their own possible death.

Sometimes I wonder if this country is even worth dying for, thanks to government but I can say I'll defend everyone around me until death. Another country? Not so much. We had our break from tyranny hundreds of years ago. Nothing says people and other countries can't do the same.

The reason Desert Storm was so successful is because, unlike Vietnam, we didn't # around. We attacked with overwhelming force. We didn't try to nibble away at it for a decade. We hit them so #ing hard the media were covering it like the Iraqi army were victims and we were bullies. #ing media.

originally posted by: CitizenZero
Compulsory military service is an assault on liberty, and as Milton Friedman argued, more expensive than a volunteer army. It turns out Trump was right to avoid it.

Maybe here it is. Some countries really don't have a choice but to have it. But we've done a lot better here since we had an all-volunteer force.

i used to be a bouncer, i have ZERO problem getting into a scrape.

going somewhere to kill someone i never met?
hard pass.

im no coward, but i do know wars are fake, set up to make inter-nationlists richer, and to further their inter-nationalists plan for a one world g0v.

im not killing anyone so a r0thschild or some c#nt queen of engl-and can have a piano made of gold.

i would not have gone to canada, i would have gone to french tahiti myself lol.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I read that magic mushrooms are making breakthroughs in PTSD treatment of vererans.

originally posted by: GreenGunther
After WWII the US thought it was the rightful peacekeeper of the world.

This is partially correct. The fact is our European allies wanted us to take the lead militarily and economically after WWII and end our isolationism. This way they could focus on all their domestic and social issues, which caused the two world wars in the first place. Now those same countries complain about us being the leader. Then step up and take the reins. Up your military spending. You take the massive tariffs that put your economy at a disadvantage for decades. That's what we've been dealing with. You're welcome to it.

originally posted by: StallionDuck
a reply to: Krahzeef_Ukhar

War is war.... If you went or if you didn't shouldn't make a difference in your 'status'.

McCain was right... The lower class were the bullet catchers. The ones that could afford college, the rich and well off folk, directed those poor sods to catch the bullets.

Where is the honor in that? I'd rather live to protect my country than die trying to hold yours together.

You're a coward if your afraid of dying? Sorry... Vet here who lived through Desert Storm (as if that was really lethal for the US - yet a lot of us came home the same as when we left, physically and mentally) and I can honestly say that I'm ok with someone running away from war and their own possible death.

Sometimes I wonder if this country is even worth dying for, thanks to government but I can say I'll defend everyone around me until death. Another country? Not so much. We had our break from tyranny hundreds of years ago. Nothing says people and other countries can't do the same.

You don't get it.

The very people who feel as you do, actually spit on and in the faces of returning veterans.

They called them names.

They wouldn't hire them.

It wasn't until my after 9/11 that my father went to a veterans parade and was invited to join that he got over the absolute loathing and hatred spit at him by liberals, the very people you are defending.

My father was an old man then and died not too long after. He cried during that post 9/11 parade and said it was the first time he felt his country thanked him and honored him for putting his life on the line because it sent him to war.

You have no idea of the hell he lived. During his final days his mind was in that bunker, where he was one of only 4 out of 25 who came out alive. The only thing that would calm him was my nephew walking sentry at the foot of his bed.

For at least 30+ years, he was reviled, spit on, and loathed by progressive/liberals for his service in Vietnam by the very people who you laud for fleeing the country. Not something the family will ever forget.

I can honestly say that sentiments like yours that were reflected in the way my father was treated was why my formerly Democratic voting family turned Republican after the screaming, spitting and worse that was heaped on veterans for 30 years by liberals. Even the Clintons treated the military wretchedly, I know, I had friends assigned to the White House who were military, and the way the Clintons treated them and spoke about them is shameful.

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets

Suicide rates have almost nothing to do with being in a war zone. Most of the suicides in the military never left the United States. I hope you are aware of that fact. They were never deployed.

Citation needed.

originally posted by: Blarneystoner

originally posted by: RickinVa
Let that soak in....57% of the available men were given deferments for various reasons.

How many of those deferments were student deferments? How many were marriage deferments? How many were fatherhood deferments?
The truth is that the majority of deferments were given to young men from wealthy families. The majority of those who were drafted were from low income families.

"One aspect of the conflict, by the way, that I will never ever countenance is that we drafted the lowest income level of America, and the highest income level found a doctor that would say that they had a bone spur. That is wrong. That is wrong. If we’re going to ask every American to serve, every American should serve."

~ American Hero John McCain
I don't think Trump is evil because he dodged the draft, I think he's a coward and unpatriotic.

Only some truth to your statement. I had a student deferment [2-S] while an undergrad. I am hardly from a wealthy family and have no political pull. The student deferment isn't permanent and goes away when one is no longer a student...for any reason. Take a semester off and 2-A is waiting for you. I graduated in June 1968 and was 2-A immediately [this was before the draft lottery]. I decided to "pick my poison" and signed up before someone else decided my fate for me.
For bone spurs, flat feet, wool allergies, and a host of other ailments, there is a 4-F classification. As I remember, this is related to infantry, much like color blindness will get one disqualified from becoming an officer in sea services (but not defer from service.)

John McCain was a spoiled Admiral's son which prevented him from getting booted out of Annapolis or Naval flight school. There are many rumors about John but I don't know if any are true.

The draft dodgers are those who ran. They weren't bright enough to think it through and select their service and just ran away. I heard many excuses but it boiled down to selfishness.

ETA: Hanoi Jane is now trying to change the narrative about her actions. She did betray prisoners. She is a traitorous dirtball who was an actress because daddy was an actor.

originally posted by: StallionDuck
War is war.... If you went or if you didn't shouldn't make a difference in your 'status'.

Really?
Would you prefer to take orders from Trump or McCain?

I guess I am saying its cowardly to dodge the draft. I definitely would have tried my hardest to dodge as well.

But I'm not here to defend either position really.

I just enjoy how Trump messes with liberals to the point that they're kind of tacitly approving the Vietnam War and the draft.

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: GreenGunther
After WWII the US thought it was the rightful peacekeeper of the world.

This is partially correct. The fact is our European allies wanted us to take the lead militarily and economically after WWII and end our isolationism. This way they could focus on all their domestic and social issues, which caused the two world wars in the first place. Now those same countries complain about us being the leader. Then step up and take the reins. Up your military spending. You take the massive tariffs that put your economy at a disadvantage for decades. That's what we've been dealing with. You're welcome to it.

This I totally agree with.

The US needs to pull out of Europe and stop occupying it.

There are only a handful of bases that need to be left in this day and age of good air travel, when we can get troops on the ground anywhere in the world within 72 hours.


The US should ONLY keep: #1 Kaiserslautern as a storage facility in Europe, minimal troops #2 Ramstein airbase and hospital for the needs of soldiers on that side of the world #3 Vencenzia as the only naval base #3 Mindenhall airbase to protect the UK from the EU when it withdraws from the EU: All the rest of Europe should be de-occupied and defend itself. NO thousands of US troops should be in Europe anymore, period.

ALL of the other bases in Europe MUST be closed. The Europeans must now defend themselves first and foremost. We should stop funding their defense and giving them hundreds/thousands of troops all the time. They can and should take care of themselves.

The US should not rush in at all over genocides, that is the role of the UN troops and forces. We contribute to that and they, not the US should be responsible for stopping genocides and persecutions. The US is hated, deeply hated by the entire world - we should butt out and leave them alone. Let the UN troops do their jobs, it is no longer the duty or responsibility of the US.

Vietnam was a mistake, yes, so is Afghanistan. But the drafted who fled the country to Canada and other places during Vietnam should have stayed where they fled to if they hated the US that much to run and not go when their country called. Cowards and vermin for sure.

Even if Trump had served in Vietnam he would be a baby killer, or they would be damn sure to find someone who saw him kill 12 babies with their own eyes but does not recall what day or where in Vietnam.

a reply to: The2Billies

The very people who feel as you do, actually spit on and in the faces of returning veterans.

100% false

Idiot hipsters, the snowflakes of the 60s and 70s did this. My grandfather and one of my younger brothers were also military as were many of my cousins and so forth. WE did nothing of the sort. WE were once spit on and called names, beaten and bludgeoned for being who we were and I'm not even referring to the military. Don't put US all in one basket.

I'm anti killing a living, breathing human being. I can't fathom taking a soul from a body, a son from a mother, a father from a daughter.... on so on. Still, I joined the war effort but not to kill... I was the idiot who didn't think his life's choices because I was at a low point in my life when I joined. I can't tell you that I didn't kill anyone because I don't know where my exploding rounds landed when I pulled the cord on my howanser or set the triangulation to where that round was landing based on coordinates I was given. I couldn't see the carnage from 10 miles away but I can imagine and I don't feel good about it.

I had friends that hated being where they were. I don't blame them. I had 'friends' who loved the idea of carnage but not one of those SOBs likely could have stood there and looked at the bodies if it had come to that. We were little more than kids trying to play 'man'.

I didn't see the carnage and I still have dreams that I snap awake from because I don't want to be there anymore - right where the dream puts me. It's a fear. It's nothing like say my brother-in-law who watched his whole squad get blown to pieces from an IED. He survived with shrapnel and he's not exactly a whole person anymore. His nightmare is far more real than mine. Mine can't even touch his.... Would I have called him a coward knowing what he would have been through had he joined but instead ran away?

What monster would?

That's my point and I'm far from missing it.

originally posted by: Blarneystoner

originally posted by: RickinVa


Let that soak in....57% of the available men were given deferments for various reasons.

How many of those deferments were student deferments? How many were marriage deferments? How many were fatherhood deferments?

The truth is that the majority of deferments were given to young men from wealthy families. The majority of those who were drafted were from low income families.

"One aspect of the conflict, by the way, that I will never ever countenance is that we drafted the lowest income level of America, and the highest income level found a doctor that would say that they had a bone spur. That is wrong. That is wrong. If we’re going to ask every American to serve, every American should serve."

~ American Hero John McCain

I don't think Trump is evil because he dodged the draft, I think he's a coward and unpatriotic.

If you are given a deferment for being in college, the wealth would be over represented since by default the vast majority of the wealthy at that time would have been in college.

My father was drafted. By some miracle he wound up serving in Germany though instead of 'Nam.

I'm not a fan of drafts because people should not be forced into military service. If we have a conflict that is really necessary, I am sure we will have plenty of volunteers.

People of means will always "pull some strings" to their advantage whether it is getting jobs, admissions to schools, etc. It is nothing new and doesn't matter the political party.

a reply to: The2Billies

In the end, you do have the choice to refuse to go to war in the united states. Jail or escape to canada is an option and choosing to accept a draft is choosing to participate.

If drafters chose to not go in droves would Vietnam still have occured for so long? 2.2 million Americans drafted. If 50% refused could the military still proceed?

I couldn't shame veterans of Vietnam but it's hard to say they faught for anything good.

originally posted by: Krahzeef_Ukhar

originally posted by: StallionDuck
War is war.... If you went or if you didn't shouldn't make a difference in your 'status'.

Really?
Would you prefer to take orders from Trump or McCain?

I guess I am saying its cowardly to dodge the draft. I definitely would have tried my hardest to dodge as well.

But I'm not here to defend either position really.

I just enjoy how Trump messes with liberals to the point that they're kind of tacitly approving the Vietnam War and the draft.

Well... McCain was a career military man so no... Not preferably.

Trump appears to have less of an attraction to war. Mostly likely Trump. He appears to have our interests as a people. Not counting the socialist welfare loving commie bastards we have on the left... of course.

You're labeling which is a fully biased stance. I don't see how it's a cowardly action to want yourself or your family members to take a really high chance of being dead because of some hypocrite tells you to go to war for the safety of our country when our country's safety isn't at stake. Hypocrite by way of not joining oneself or allowing their children to get placed in harms way.

I'll say that the most intelligent action from either of those two would obviously be trump.

Is it stupid to jump off of a bridge because the channel in that spot is too deep? I'd say so. Yet... many people in high places will demand you do so to fill that hole so their children can walk across without drowning - simply because they don't know how to swim.

When you are trying to show the russians that you will send in troops to die you don't want to send your upper class young men .

Vietnam was a mistake, yes, so is Afghanistan. But the drafted who fled the country to Canada and other places during Vietnam should have stayed where they fled to if they hated the US that much to run and not go when their country called. Cowards and vermin for sure.

a reply to: The2Billies


????

ok... If it's a mistake and you ran away - why are they cowards? Your words conflict themselves.

WHO said they hated the US? They likely hated the tyrannus demands of the government at that time. No one said they hated their home. Sometimes country means government and sometimes it means your home. You have to note what is exactly meant there. Government? They obviously hated the government! Home? Doubtfully... They came back.

So you're a coward if you run away from a murderer with a shotgun? What's exactly what you're saying. It's the wrong thing to do but you shouldn't run from it?

originally posted by: Stupidsecrets
Even if Trump had served in Vietnam he would be a baby killer, or they would be damn sure to find someone who saw him kill 12 babies with their own eyes but does not recall what day or where in Vietnam.

Yea.. you are probably right. However, Trump deserves it in a way. He talks a lot of trash and receives alot back in return. Liberals hate him because he is a shameless republican a-hole. Now, they have become shameless liberal a-holes in return...

Politics suck..

Many kids avoided the draft by going to College when they were drafting. Trump was one of Millions of kids that did this. The government did not want the smart kids getting shot and killed, they wanted those who might uprise someday against our government to be eliminated, not the intelligent ones that would work with our government.

I doubt if many congressmen these days are veterans. Most wanted nothing to do with the military.

Bill Clinton actually did the College thing to get out of being drafted, he even participated in some demonstrations against the draft if I remember right. What Trump did is only being considered Draft dodging by some of the people who fought in those stupid wars in Vietnam and Cambodia. They did not have a choice, back in those days it was hard to get accepted in College, there were lots of kids who did not want to go fight in that war. The war was over already when I graduated but I was advised to stay in school to avoid being called if something happened.