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Gun ban' utopia creates violent crime increase

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posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 05:15 PM
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www.record-bee.com...


Lets see where did I put my 9mm black talons. Oh well the hydra shocks should perform well enough. What do you do when your government rules by tyranny? You can not overthrow them now that your teeth have been pulled. Tell me this Texan wants to know


The cure is worse than the disease



In a pattern that's repeated itself in Canada and Australia, violent crime has continued to go up in Great Britain despite a complete ban on handguns, most rifles and many shotguns. The broad ban that went into effect in 1997 was trumpeted by the British government as a cure for violent crime. The cure has proven to be much worse than the disease.
Crime rates in England have skyrocketed since the ban was enacted. According to economist John Lott of the American Enterprise Institute, the violent crime rate has risen 69 percent since 1996, with robbery rising 45 percent and murders rising 54 percent. This is even more alarming when you consider that from 1993 to 1997 armed robberies had fallen by 50 percent. Recent information released by the British Home Office shows that trend is continuing.

Reports released in October 2004 indicate that during the second quarter of 2004, violent crime rose 11 percent; violence against persons rose 14 percent.

The British experience is further proof that gun bans don't reduce crime and, in fact, may increase it. The gun ban creates ready victims for criminals, denying law-abiding people the opportunity to defend themselves.

contrast, the number of privately owned guns in the United States rises by about 5 million a year, according to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The number of guns owned by Americans is at an all-time high, fast approaching 300 million.



[edit on 8-3-2005 by Reaganwasourgreatest]

[edit on 8-3-2005 by Reaganwasourgreatest]




posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:01 PM
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Are you trying to get us all to have guns?
BTW we can have guns...
How many crimes DO we have, anyone can make a percentage up..



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:48 PM
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Absolutely! Guns are cool. I remember the first time my 16 yr old daughter fired my 44mag. She hit everything she aimed at. I was so proud i went out and bought a 9mm just so my 8yr old son could enjoy the experience. I spent time with them teaching them gun safety so they do not blow their heads off. We all know daddy's guns are loaded. Play with them and die. I will never accidentally blow my head off cleaning them; i know one is in the chamber.

I remember see my older boy wince when he fired my high powered rifle. But the pleasure when he seen the bucket full of water explode.

We are Pro-life. The thought of taking human life is repulsive to all of us. Sometimes it is necessary but that time is usually for our government to decide, not the individual. If things get bad and I am forced to defend my family or myself, it will be nice to be able to stand trial. Without that weapon you may be helpless.

I personally think if the UK does not allow people to defend themselves then they should be liable for your protection.

Here police are to enforce the law. They do not get involved until a crime is committed



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:21 PM
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Well I Agree, just remember the guy in the UK that was sentenced to prison for injuring a man who was sexually assaulting his wife during a break in, where is the logic in that?

There was a reason that our founding fathers wanted the right to bear arms you know...

300Million? # that only accounts for Texas what about the other 49?



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:31 PM
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There's a reason why the poster sticks to % increases and avoids the specific 'bald numbers' like the proverbial plague.

All the serious crime surveys (when shown as a per 1000 of population) show the US has a much higher level.....

.....and that's before we get to the horrific numbers maimed and killed by accident in the US with those legal and easily available firearms.

There's an entire industry feeding Americans the childish lie that 'if the gov ever comes at you you can resist in the most fundamental way possible if you're armed'.
Yeah right, of course you can. Bound to happen.


(as for the 'logic' in the case you mention ed - always a huge proviso on the information you have seen too by the way - the point is meant to be that society should also get protection from the handfull of nutters who take advantage of a breaking and entering situation to go way beyond any kind of actual 'self-defence'......

.....and you do realise you are citing a law extremely rarely used, don't you?)

[edit on 8-3-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
Absolutely! Guns are cool. I remember the first time my 16 yr old daughter fired my 44mag. She hit everything she aimed at. I was so proud i went out and bought a 9mm just so my 8yr old son could enjoy the experience. I spent time with them teaching them gun safety so they do not blow their heads off. We all know daddy's guns are loaded. Play with them and die. I will never accidentally blow my head off cleaning them; i know one is in the chamber.

Dude.....why?



We are Pro-life. The thought of taking human life is repulsive to all of us. Sometimes it is necessary but that time is usually for our government to decide, not the individual. If things get bad and I am forced to defend my family or myself, it will be nice to be able to stand trial. Without that weapon you may be helpless.

Against what threat?
The commies?
You have an armed forces for that.


I personally think if the UK does not allow people to defend themselves then they should be liable for your protection.

As I have said WE CAN own guns and defend ourselves with out them.


Here police are to enforce the law. They do not get involved until a crime is committed

Police here are involved in stopping a crime before It happens



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:44 PM
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I thought devil, you would have a hard time passing up on this one. So how many guns you own? How difficult is it to get one? i had to get an FBI background check for my concealed weapons permit. No never carried, never needed to but when you do you might not can wait for 6 months. We do I need guns. I don't but a want them and enjoy shooting them. Who knows maybe some sick SOB might break in and do something to my family (chuck manson types) The only ones who have guns in England are them criminals as the article shown. Percentages not accurately reflecting fact pinky? Tennessee had high crime around Jackson. They allowed honest citizens to conceal and carry, violent crime totals went down. it one thing to try and rape a women, another doing so when she might have an equalizer. That trining class i went to was mostly senior citizens. Grandma's were pulling out their glocks and hitting what they aimed at.
I would reccomend against busting into those old ladies houses.

Standing Army, yep Stalin used his to kill millions of their own citizens. America has the oldest continuous form of government. Why because the fear us not we them.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:17 PM
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When they come for the guns, givem the ammo first!



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 06:07 AM
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Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
Percentages not accurately reflecting fact pinky?


- In this case, of course not.

I'm quite sure you are bright enough to know it's a dishonest game here as well as any.

(For instance.
A 600% rise in *whatever* sounds terrible until you find out you are talking about a rise from 2 cases of *whatever* to 8.)

Try avoiding % and start talking actual numbers and cases per 1000, that way we can all see the plain truth of the matter and not this deliberate distorted spin.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 06:43 AM
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Originally posted by ReaganwasourgreatestThe broad ban that went into effect in 1997 was trumpeted by the British government as a cure for violent crime. The cure has proven to be much worse than the disease.
Crime rates in England have skyrocketed since the ban was enacted. According to economist John Lott of the American Enterprise Institute, the violent crime rate has risen 69 percent since 1996, with robbery rising 45 percent and murders rising 54 percent. This is even more alarming when you consider that from 1993 to 1997 armed robberies had fallen by 50 percent. Recent information released by the British Home Office shows that trend is continuing.


There were changes made in the way that crime reporting was done.
In 1998 they started counting all reports of crime even if there was no supporting evidence behind the complaints and no charges were filed.



The effect of the change in the counting rules in 1998 was to artificially increase recorded crime by 14% (and recorded violence against the person by more than 100%) while estimated that effect of the introduction of the NCRS caused further 10% increase recorded crime (23% for violence against the person) in its first year. Our best estimate that, had these two changes not been made, then there would have been a decrease in recorded crime from the period before the counting rule change to 2003/2004.


Here's the latest UK Homeoffice report on crime:

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

There are some increases in gun crimes but they count replicas, pepper spray, CS Gas and even paintball guns in their gun crime statistics.



[edit on 9-3-2005 by AceOfBase]



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 07:14 AM
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Yet again a quality post AoB.

Way above for that mate.

Nice work.

(now, what are the bets we don't see anything remotely comparable from our gun 'fans', hmmm?)



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 09:23 AM
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Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
I thought devil, you would have a hard time passing up on this one. So how many guns you own?

It involves my country and guns..
None, I have no need nor no desire to get one..



How difficult is it to get one?

Not that difficult.



i had to get an FBI background check for my concealed weapons permit. No never carried, never needed to but when you do you might not can wait for 6 months. We do I need guns. I don't but a want them and enjoy shooting them. Who knows maybe some sick SOB might break in and do something to my family (chuck manson types)

You need to undergo an SO-19 check here I think.
Also we have neighbors who help and the fact there is not really any SOB's over here willing to break in and do something to our familys.




The only ones who have guns in England are them criminals as the article shown.

Well speaking as one from above the border in scotland I can safely say that aint true....Unless these guys and the bisley range is a big lie....www.nra.org.uk...




Standing Army, yep Stalin used his to kill millions of their own citizens. America has the oldest continuous form of government. Why because the fear us not we them.

I believe we are older....unless you think we fear our government?



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 08:20 PM
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So you Scotts now bow to your Queen? You better because she has disarmed you, pulled your teeth so to speak. You highlanders must have traded your kilts for dresses, to bow to down to your English Lords.



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
So you Scotts now bow to your Queen? You better because she has disarmed you, pulled your teeth so to speak. You highlanders must have traded your kilts for dresses, to bow to down to your English Lords.


We English folk are no longer the Lord over the Scottish, then again when we were they didn't put up with it.

Today England, Wales and Scotland are all equal



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
So you Scotts now bow to your Queen?


- You'll find the Monarchy isn't quite the object of deference it once was for any of us Reag whether Scot, Welsh, Irish or English.


You better because she has disarmed you, pulled your teeth so to speak.


- The laws you make you silly oblique references to were - rightly or wrongly - formulated, proposed, debated, amended and finally passed by the people's representitives in Parliament and not by the Crown.
Actually.

As for silly ideas of a modern on-going English domination over the Scots you might care to examine the effects of the Scottish Parliament, the representation of Scots in the Gov since 1997 .......and some would even point to a 'generous' over-representation of the Scottish voice in the UK Parliament.


You highlanders must have traded your kilts for dresses, to bow to down to your English Lords.


- Absurd. Do you know just how remote any @Lord' is from day to dday living throughout the UK Reag?
.......and how about those Scottish Lords the Reag, what of them?

(Your jests might be a tad more amusing if you knew a little more about how things are and how they are done here.)

...............so anyway, dumb childish jibes aside; no response to the facts as posted by Ace of Base?
Still desparately avoiding comparing the actual figures then
, huh?



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Still desparately avoiding comparing the actual figures then, huh?


Guess he voted for Bush then



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 03:48 PM
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Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
So you Scotts now bow to your Queen? You better because she has disarmed you, pulled your teeth so to speak. You highlanders must have traded your kilts for dresses, to bow to down to your English Lords.

Funny last time I checked the treaty of union existed.....
Not really, since we are the ones constantly being the first into the fray of every war...
We have actually have a house of lords who are not all english.....read before commenting.....



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 05:47 PM
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AOB nice post, I stand corrected. It appears people have a way of manipulating statistics. Some there I do question their rationalization particularly but not exclusively the increase in sex crimes. That is why we arm our women. the liberals here have an affinity for sexual predators. they care more about the rights of the guilty than the victims of the crime. That high of an increase ~20% I think has to be partially by there new standards but all of it?

As for the the other stuff, I am fully aware of how you have democracy not a monarchy. Why are y'all so hung up on the queen and her butt ugly prodigy. I must add, he does look much better standing next to Camilla? As far as references to my lineage the ancestral incest, back at ya.

Pinky, i do not believe the harmony touted between irish english welsh and scottish. I heard to many jokes over here from another about another.
Peace!



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest
It appears people have a way of manipulating statistics.


- No sh*t!


Mind you when some gun fans have a tendancy to talk about silly nonsense re 'Utopia's' etc, that is kind of a give-away, no?



Some there I do question their rationalization particularly but not exclusively the increase in sex crimes. That is why we arm our women. the liberals here have an affinity for sexual predators.


- Except if you go on the basis of per 1000 people (rather than hide behind rather meaningless %'s) you'll find the level of rape is higher in the armed US than the unarmed UK.


they care more about the rights of the guilty than the victims of the crime.


- Don't be silly; we care far more about the actual, better, outcomes and what works rather than insisting on a 'philosophical' position regardless of the actual outcome.

In our society we have less rape and serious sex crime......an actual outcome which sees more people enjoying their right to a life free from that kind of criminal trauma.


That high of an increase ~20% I think has to be partially by there new standards but all of it?


- You can see the breakdown.
The actual real gun element has reduced.


As for the the other stuff, I am fully aware of how you have democracy not a monarchy. Why are y'all so hung up on the queen and her butt ugly prodigy. I must add, he does look much better standing next to Camilla? As far as references to my lineage the ancestral incest, back at ya.


- Like I said many many people could care less either way.
We don't have much debate about becoming a republic and it is thought that around 30% of people would already prefer one nevermind considering the effect of an extended full and frank debate on the matter.


Pinky, i do not believe the harmony touted between irish english welsh and scottish. I heard to many jokes over here from another about another. Peace!


- I imagine it's a situation not unlike many parts of the US......or like the UK/Europe & US for that matter.

We sometimes bicker, we sometimes get genuinely offended with each other but by and large much of it is not too serious and anyway there are enough grown-up enough to know the benefts of not letting any of the real bad feeling get too out of hand and that we all benefit more by sticking together than acting alone.

Look at Ireland, not (except for the 6 county 'Northern Ireland' bit) a part of the UK but since WW2 with so many close familial ties to the UK the relationship has changed completely from one of quiet hostility to the kind of excellent one obvious close family ties generate.

Once that kind of suspicious hostility was the norm between all of the British Isles 'home nations', it is absurd to suggest it genuinely exists like that now beyond a nutter die-hard fringe.

Peace indeedy.


[edit on 10-3-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by Reaganwasourgreatest

Pinky, i do not believe the harmony touted between irish english welsh and scottish. I heard to many jokes over here from another about another.
Peace!


its called british humour. we can take the piss out of each other without it necessarily being offensive (unless heard by the PC brigade of course). in other words, we can laugh at ourselves - a key element missing from american society, in my experience.

i would say that whilst there is a rivalry between the countries, for the most part, this isnt animosity.



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