Biggest Welfare Fraud Mormons

a reply to: dawnstar

I dont know how they are stockpiling goods unless they are living in a commune type lifestyle and pooling resources. Even then, I dont think it would be that profitable.

Yes that is exactly how they are living, in a commune.
It is obviously working because a family of 30 are living comfortably on one min wage job.

a reply to: jhin1place

So basically you agree with most of my comments then. I've witnessed the things I've described in person, not just hearsay. Job applications? Yep, happened to me personally, and it wasn't a job at a church owned property, but rather an engineering firm. LDS partner firms? Yep, got told directly, in no uncertain terms, by a Managing Director within the City government what sub-contractors we would hire for a project at the SLC Int'l Airport..."if we really wanted the job". Then got told by some of those same sub-contractors about how the fee structure worked. These were heavy hitters in SLC too, not just some small-time subcontractors. Experienced it in person. You might not like it, it might make you uncomfortable, but it happened and I witnessed it with my own eyes. (We did in fact hire those subs, and we did get the jobs too...when in Rome, you know). Now granted, this was back in the 80's, and some of those things have changed since then, but it was real, and it existed. And, even if to a lesser extent, some of those practices still exist today.

BTW, my statements in no way suggest Utah is a bad state to live in. I actually love the state of Utah, but as an outsider you need to understand what you're getting into. I had, and continue to have, many Mormon friends, and yes, not all Mormons are scam artists like this, but there are far more of them then some 'tiny minority'. AND, the fact that the church knows full well how they operate and abuse the system yet choose to overlook these actions speaks of tolerance. They don't call them out.

Regarding the FLDS, I am very aware of how the FLDS came to be, and here again, the LDS church has been very careful selecting their words when making public statements about their beliefs and activities. Warren Jeffs is a douche bag, a convicted felon and a child abuser. The state of Utah should have had him on their Top 10 most wanted list for 20 years before the FBI ever started chasing him. Utah should have eradicated that cult from their state and then publicly denounced them. But they didn't. They just left them alone until the 2000's when the feds came on the scene. A person could go to jail in Hildale just for being a non-FLDS outsider and neither the State, nor the church, would lift a finger to do anything about it. I'm sorry, but that's complicit.

You say the state of Utah had a "standing agreement" not to prosecute plural marriages. What better example could anyone cite as an example of church and state connections???? Of course they did, but they shouldn't have!

Lastly, no, the entire state is not like the FLDS in Hildale, but you cannot possibly deny the favoritism afforded to Mormons in numerous other LDS strongholds around the state of Utah. Places such as Provo, communities surrounding St. George, Nephi and Heber. Things like bank loans, business credit lines, building permits, and the list goes on.

Have things improved since the 80's? Absolutely they have, and I'm going to say something here you'll rarely ever see me say; one of the reasons for this is the MSM coverage of some of the issues notorious for Utah. BTW, you can also thank the media (who I am usually hyper-critical of) for the non-Mormon population exceeding the LDS population in SLC too (though I'm not convinced this is an altogether good thing. You used to be able to eat off the sidewalks in SLC, but not anymore!)

Utah is a beautiful state, and their Parks (not just national) are staggeringly beautiful. But to deny that some of the favoritism and 'good 'ol boy' network related to the church continue to exist is simply foolish and an admission you have blinders on. It's greatly improved, on this we might agree, but there are still many pieces of it remaining.

ETA - BTW, U of U in SLC and Weber State in Ogden are my alma mater(s). I lived in Utah for about 6 years, but 'home' was Wyoming.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Lastly, no, the entire state is not like the FLDS in Hildale, but you cannot possibly deny the favoritism afforded to Mormons in numerous other LDS strongholds around the state of Utah.

Exactly!

a reply to: dawnstar

A few wives and a dozen kids all living in a HUD subsidized house would be quite noticable you'd think?

Not when you're living in a community where everyone else is doing the exact same thing. This is precisely why some of these communities are so suspicious and wary of outsiders even entering their communities at all and will go to great lengths to run them off.

It's a form of organized crime.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Ummm.. kind of makes me want to kick myself in the arse for worrying about what the laws are...

And the plot thickens...

Mormon church misled members on tax exempt investment fund

The investment fund they're referring to is the same $100 "billion" (you read that right) main fund where all the member's tithing donations are deposited into. Each year the church collects approximately $7b from its member's, $6b of which is used for operating costs and church related capital expenditures. The remaining $1b is supposed to be used for charitable purposes. According to the linked article this last $1b for charitable purposes may not have been used for charitable purposes after all.

Consequently, and to the point of the OP, my questions would be...

1. If a donation, in the form of tithing, to the church is used for a 'for-profit' venture then isn't this considered "income" under IRS tax law?

2. So, if an individual used welfare dollars to pay their tithe, and (per #1) this money was not used for charitable purposes by the church, but rather for 'for-profit' ventures, then has the church then knowingly circumvented a tax obligation on income generated from welfare dollars?? (Double whammy!)

Dum...DUM...DAAAAAAAaaaaaah!!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I just saw that! Pretty much speaks to exactly what you were saying previously! cough cough!

That whole state needs a shakedown!

a reply to: JAGStorm

Using tax dollars for income, and then not paying taxes on that tax dollar income. That's like getting over twice on the same dollar. Yeah, nothing to see here, folks...move along now.

There are also some really interesting comments in the comments section from 'former Mormons', about how all the tithe "annual settlement" process works.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

There are also some really interesting comments in the comments section from 'former Mormons', about how all the tithe "annual settlement" process works.

Like what, I'm curious?

@ flyingclaydisk. You hit the nail on the head.

I love the state to visit, but never to try and find a place to live or work. It’s Way worse than being from California and moving to a podunk town in Georgia or Carolinas. If your not Mormon that is.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Just talks about the process, and how they conduct it. It was actually fairly lengthy, I'd have to go find it. It was kind of a back and forth between two insiders with minor clarifications of the process. Just scroll down through the comments, you'll see them.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

wow those comments are good!
From your link, this is my favorite comment!

Oh its a bit more sinister than that.........the church collects around 7 billion per year and of that 7 billion they spent around 40 million on charity.......that equals .57% of their income. Let's put that in perspective. If the church was making 50,000 per year they are spending $285 on charity......that is gross!!!

a reply to: JAGStorm

I'm not a Mormon, but I was raised in the real Mormon church and I assure you they do not practice polygamy. The nuts that broke off from the church are a very small group of people.

From the 13 Articles of Faith that Mormons live by -

We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

The rule of law is not only recognized, it's mandatory to obey the law as it exists.

I think it's important when discussing these topics that people not imply the millions of real members, have anything to do with the nuts in the fake church. To do so is dishonest and misleading.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Mormon leaders are as corrupt as the leadership of many other churches, which is why I'm not one.

Judge them however and not the average member, who is unaware of the goings on at the top. You are right, the leadership is corrupt.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

ha, love your tagline about epstein!

Thanks for the reply. I would say things have improved, but personally I never encountered some of the favoritism you described.
My only experience with this was applying for a tech job with the LDS church about 5 years ago. Got offered the job, but wasn't really comfortable with wearing a shirt and tie every day, starting each day with a prayer and devotional, and moving (writing code for projects) at the speed of a glacier.

I was going to mention the whistleblower complaint that came out this week about church assets, but I just scrolled down and see you have it linked. This comes up every few years, but wow, 100 billion is a lot of cheddar.

a reply to: Blaine91555

I hope I didn't give the impression that all Mormons are into polygamy, because I don't believe that.
I had in my original post

this sect of Mormon fundamentalist

Maybe I should have clarified it is a small sect.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

You might also be interested to know, that when I quit, I read all the books of hate I could find about them coming from mainstream Protestants and they were filled with lies. Pots calling kettles black.

I think the top leadership at pretty much all churches are corrupt. The members though are not to blame for anything but being fooled and needing new leaders.

I'm always amazed by illiterate people who think the Mormons all have multiple wives. You lived there, so you know the facts. I was raised there in a small town. Good people in general, more honest than the general population by far, if you discount the corruption at the top.

a reply to: JAGStorm

You're fine. I just like to reinforce it when I see them in topics, since most people think the nuts are actual Mormons. Many don't know the difference. Your post was fine

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I am a temple recommend holder in the LDS church now. (wasn't growing up). Just wanted to throw .02 more cents in. Tithing settlement really isn't a big deal, and no, the bishop does not require a W2 when you go in.

Below is an official church statement on the subject (which to me is open to some interpretation):

Q: Do I pay tithing on my income before taxes are taken out or on what I receive after taxes?
A: The First Presidency has answered this question in this way: “The simplest statement we know of is the statement of the Lord himself, namely, that the members of the Church should pay ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income. No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, Mar. 19, 1970).
In other words, the way you define your income, and consequently your tithing, is a matter between you and the Lord. Prayerfully seek the Lord’s guidance on issues like taxes, gifts, scholarships, and other matters to determine what qualifies as a full tithe.

a reply to: Blaine91555

You know, it's interesting; some of the best people I've met are LDS. I actually love their virtues.

It is also extremely interesting you pointed out the Protestant angle. This particular subject lends more credence to the Mormon faith than any other...and they cite it often.

Yes, the people in general are wonderful people, but then again there are places where they are not so wonderful. I was "blessed" with seeing more of the former than the latter. So, overall, my impression is good. However, I cannot help but observe some of the inequities which go on in the state on a regular basis. Of this, I am sure you are aware.

No, not all Mormons have plural relationships, but this subject is something the Mormon church has struggled with since the days of Brigham Young, and the founding of..."This is the place!.

I find issues with the Mormons in their conquest of places like South Pass Wyoming (my home), where they have tried to revert history. This is wrong, IMHO. And, they have bought up land, in the name of the church, and actively prevent people from traversing the historic Oregon Trail as a result. As a historian, I'm sure you would know this...right?

Things are not always what they seem, and the Mormon faith falls among these things. No, they are not all plural wife worshippers, but equally many live dual lives. In public they seem one way, but inside the home they are completely different. Growing up, my next door neighbors were the exact same way.

But yes, corruption at the top is deplorable, of the highest order...and hearkening back all the way to the OP; it's hard to deny there is an endemic philosophy of taking advantage of government support programs withinn the lower income Mormon communities.

BTW...I would hope you don't think I am an "illeterate persons"! Surely, you know I am NOT!