Biggest Welfare Fraud Mormons

fox13now.com...

Utah's Department of Workforce Services confirmed to FOX 13 it had ended the investigation, deciding to not pursue any action against rank-and-file members of the polygamous church who may have been caught up in what became the nation's biggest welfare abuse case.

I had insomnia and wanted to watch something really boring. I found something called 3 wives one husband on
Netflix. What could be more boring than Mormon polygamy. Wrong, this series infuriated me.

Basically this sect of Mormon fundamentalist believe in having as many kids and wives as earthy possible.
The problem is that it's not possible without you and me. We are funding this sickness. Read that quote again, Biggest welfare abuse case!!!

I'm a pretty much live and let live kind of person. I get chapped when my tax dollars are paying for this type of fleecing. For all the sassy folks, yes I hate corporate welfare too!
Basically here is what is going on. A man has multiple wives. Only one wife is legal. The rest are not considered legal. They have a whole bunch of kids. Seriously, a lot of of freaking kids. The man usually has a low or min wage paying job. Just imagine, a household of 20/30/40+ people and one min wage paying job. All the non-legal wives are seen as single moms and get a TON of government benefits. The cult then uses that to warehouse and even sell the excess to support their lifestyle.

There was an investigation into the FDLS but the state of Utah dropped it. The extra wives are technically legally entitled to all those benefits.
To me it is morally reprehensible. Every tax payer should be outraged at this.

Back to that series. I feel so sorry for all those extra wives. It is obvious they have depression and major self esteem issues. How anyone can live this lifestyle is beyond me.

originally posted by: JAGStorm

Basically this sect of Mormon fundamentalist believe in having as many kids and wives as earthy possible.
The problem is that it's not possible without you and me. We are funding this sickness. Read that quote again, Biggest welfare abuse case!!!

Didn't they break off from the Mormon church in 1890? To associate them to the Mormon faith would be like saying the branch Davidian are a main stream Christian faith.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Didn't they break off from the Mormon church in 1890? To associate them to the Mormon faith would be like saying the branch Davidian are a main stream Christian faith.

theconversation.com...

The LDS Church publicly renounced the practice of polygamy in 1890, but it has never renounced polygamy as doctrine, as evidenced in LDS scriptures. It has always permitted and continues to permit men to be married in Mormon temples “for the eternities” to more than one wife.Aug 17, 2017

In all seriousness, I don't care if one may has twenty wives, I just don't want to pay for it.

originally posted by: JAGStorm

In all seriousness, I don't care if one may has twenty wives, I just don't want to pay for it.

In all seriousness, what if in today's world I don't get married at all but I live with 20 women that I have children with each one, oh God help me in that hell, but what if?

a reply to: Xtrozero

In all seriousness, what if in today's world I don't get married at all but I live with 20 women that I have children with each one, oh God help me in that hell, but what if?

Of course your scenario happens sometimes, and it has nothing really to do with marriage.
The problem I have with it is the the entire welfare scam. The reselling of goods. If you really need welfare/food OK. If they have so much excess they are able to warehouse and sell it to support a lifestyle, that is a scam.
If people (anyone) are having an extreme number of kids and can't support one kid let alone 20, that is wrong too. I'm totally for child limits put on welfare. If you can't support one child, should I have to support your 20 kids?? No way.

You know where I think this group is wrong. They are all doing it with intent. They know they will have dozens and dozens of kids. They purposely take on low paying jobs to get those benefits.

originally posted by: JAGStorm

The problem I have with it is the the entire welfare scam. The reselling of goods. If you really need welfare/food OK. If they have so much excess they are able to warehouse and sell it to support a lifestyle, that is a scam.
If people (anyone) are having an extreme number of kids and can't support one kid let alone 20, that is wrong too. I'm totally for child limits put on welfare. If you can't support one child, should I have to support your 20 kids?? No way.

How many times have we seen the scenario of where poor minorities pop out kids because each one is XXX dollars per month for the mom/dad that find welfare easier than working? Many scams so to speak out there so what do you do when you still have a bunch of kids the Goverment is forced into taking care of without the means to force the parents to actually take care of them and not use the money for drug and booze instead.

What these people do might be the lessor of evils in all this, as far as I know the kids are actually taken well care of.

Well, and I'm not trying to make excuses, back in the day the Mormons had a small population with a sex ratio imbalance. The multiple wives and large families increased their numbers so they had enough man power to run their farms and other businesses. It wasn't uncommon back then for a regular farm family to be larger, my great grandmother had 13 kids, and that was just a normal couple with great grandfather and her.

Now, it is obviously not necessary to have multiple wives. No need for all those kids either, but if they were actually working the kids on a farm, they wouldn't need the assistance. Sounds like they need to get legal with their lifestyles, they need to come down hard on this, but I bet the official LDS Church has a lot of influence to prevent that.

And remember kids, don't do LDS. You'll screw your brain up and forever have horrible flash backs where these two nicely dressed young guys appear and try to get you to read the Book of Mormon.

a reply to: Xtrozero

How many times have we seen the scenario of where poor minorities pop out kids because each one is XXX dollars per month for the mom/dad that find welfare easier than working?

The welfare system should only support the first two children. After that, your problem.

That would stop most of this crap in its tracks and help with global population control.

P

a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

...but I bet the official LDS Church has a lot of influence to prevent that.

HA!! You don't even know the half of it!! The Mormon church OWNS the Utah state government! I went to college in Utah and the stories I could tell you would melt your brain! I've seen job applications which blatantly straight-up asked you to fill in the name (and phone #) of your "Bishop" as a character reference! Leave it blank, or put an "N/A" in the box and your application went straight into 'File 13' (aka, the garbage). The church, of course, denies these things, but they were real back then. I've seen Requests For Proposals to contractors which asked ("optionally" of course) what "Ward" you belonged to, and the name of your "Bishop" as a corporate reference. Bottom line; you don't work in Utah unless you belong to the Mormon church! You don't get contracts in Utah...unless you belong to the Mormon church.

If you wanted to win contracts in Utah there was an unwritten rule that you had to partner up with an LDS contractor, who would openly charge a 30% premium on everything just because they were Mormons and this was your "dues" which went to the Mormon church as payola. It's like the frigging mafia!

There are towns in southern Utah where they will literally arrest and jail you for not being a Mormon. No kidding. Again, of course, the "Church" denies all these things, but they're real. Want to see some examples? Just do some research on a town named Hildale (also known as Colorado City) on the Utah / Arizona border. Now granted, this town is predominantly Fundamentalist LDS, but the simple fact that the main Mormon church allowed this place to exist unfettered for over 100 years should tell you something. Remember polygamist leader and now imprisoned sexual predator, Warren Jeffs? Yeah well, he was pretty much the defacto leader there.

Regarding welfare, in many communities fleecing the federal government is considered a legitimate "job". The average family size in towns like Hildale is something like 8.1 children per household, and upwards of 40% live below the poverty line.

This is happening with illegal aliens. Come to America, have as many kids as you want, it’s all free! I’m in new York, 5 lids isn’t unusual, heck it’s all free. You have to see the food pantries around here, like a trip to South America, all loading up in nice SUV”s.

a reply to: JAGStorm

In all seriousness, christian scriptures allow for polygamy also. I dont know much about the mormon church but unless they are actually marrying couples into polygamous relationships, what's in their scriptures have no more relevance than what's in any other's scriptures. They have all laid aside those parts that have been deemed to not be relevant in modern society.
As far as their men taking low wage jobs so the govt has to provide more support. Unless he is living with all these wives and it can be proven, only those wives that he is spending a significant amount of time in the household with or hes using as his address needs to claim his income. All the rest he would at most, have to pay child support for. I dont think it would matter how much he is paid, he probably cant make enough to even come close to providing full support for 20 or more kids living in multiple households. And, I dont know how they are stockpiling goods unless they are living in a commune type lifestyle and pooling resources. Even then, I dont think it would be that profitable.
As far as the influence of the mormon church, I've seen its reach out into NY state utilizing connections within the mafia.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: JAGStorm

In all seriousness, I don't care if one may has twenty wives, I just don't want to pay for it.

In all seriousness, what if in today's world I don't get married at all but I live with 20 women that I have children with each one, oh God help me in that hell, but what if?

Then pay for those kids, and I don't care.

a reply to: dawnstar

I see no reason for polygamy to be illegal. I see no reason for me or anyone else to be funding their kids.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

If it was legal, maybe these families would be all living under one roof, it wouldn't cost so much to support all of them.
And, I think, historically speaking, it was allowed, but also expected that the men wouldn't take more wives than they could afford. Maybe???

a reply to: dawnstar

They are living under one roof I think. They just would not be single moms. I want to get out of the business of tax breaks/subsidies for anyone regardless of income past their 2nd child. If you can make it, you can take care of it, if you can't, then there should be a mandatory tube tying or something similar.

No one should ever be forced by the government to pay for other people's multiple children.

a reply to: JAGStorm

A lot of this goes on where my in-laws live in Upper Peninsula Michigan - and I'm sure other more rural areas as well. Not a lot of income opportunity, and the cost of housing is ridiculously cheap, making welfare more lucrative than most places.

It seems the most typical situation is remaining unmarried to maximize benefits. I don't think its done strictly out of laziness - its their way of getting by when there's very few jobs available.

And the cycle repeats, as it does in the inner city. Its sad, and the solutions are tough, because nobody wants to just let children starve. Its probably been determined that it costs less to just keep providing than to cut off benefits and employ enough people to ensure children are heing cared for.

If only there was a way to make people smarter...

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: dawnstar

They are living under one roof I think. They just would not be single moms. I want to get out of the business of tax breaks/subsidies for anyone regardless of income past their 2nd child. If you can make it, you can take care of it, if you can't, then there should be a mandatory tube tying or something similar.

No one should ever be forced by the government to pay for other people's multiple children.

When it really began to bother me most was when I realized, with my tax burden and paying for my own housing/student loans, I had NOTHING left after feeding my children, while folks on welfare could go out and do fun things, buy new shoes, etc, because they didn't have that burden.

If you're collecting benefits on the backs of others, it should be an extreme struggle. If its very short-term, I understand, but if its ongoing, there should be a level of misery that motivates most to find a way out. Our welfare system provides too much ongoing comfort.

a reply to: JAGStorm

Brainwashing. That's how the 'extra wives' put up with this nonsense. Even if God wants you to have as many children as possible, surely he doesn't want you to have them with an emotionally immature and socially inept man.

Even if you love the notion of a patriarch, he still has to be worthy of his status. Relying on state aid to fund your children is the opposite of leadership.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Wow, your post is so full of half truths, distorted facts, and hearsay, you should use it for a job application to the mainstream media. I generally don't respond to a troll post such as this, but as a lifelong native of Utah (non-lds, not that it matters), I felt compelled to reply. Let's break this down piece by piece:

"I went to college in Utah and the stories I could tell you would melt your brain! I've seen job applications which blatantly straight-up asked you to fill in the name (and phone #) of your "Bishop" as a character reference!"

If you went to a private university like BYU, yes, you do need an ecclesiatical endorsement to attend (had no problem getting one back in the day to attend the Y one semester). As for the comment "job applications with the name of your bishop", uh, fake news. If you were applying for a job with a private, church owned entity, like BYU or Deseret Industries, ya, they could ask you that, which is their right. But any other company that asked that question, no. You'd get your pants sued off if that was on a job application. Just did some interviews for positions in my company. Interviewed a brilliant lady from India who had a wedding band and talked about her son, but I didn't even dare to ask if she was married 'cause I know that's out of bounds. No public company is going to ask your religious affiliation.

RFP's that asked for your ward? Ya, sure that could happen if you're bidding on an LDS church project. They have pretty high standards when it comes to who works on buildings, church landscaping, etc. Having said that, my non-member father's contracting business did many jobs in Utah on meeting houses. We did have a couple restrictions: no smoking on the site, and no swearing. (which is difficult with construction guys).

Your comment about "you have to have an LDS partner to compete in Utah" and they add 30% to the bid, is just ignorant or asinine. Again, my parents ran 2 businesses in Utah for over 40 years without any problems, and one of them was a bar in Happy Valley (Utah Valley). Saying they added a premium is just stupid. If anything, their bids were probably 30% higher 'cause they were honest bids, not something put together by a scab.

Now, about towns in southern Utah. Wow, glad this site's motto is "Deny Ignorance". Let's review: The towns of Hildale (and Colorado City) on the Utah/Arizona border were founded by the Fundamental LDS church (FLDS). The mainstream LDS church did practice polygamy for several decades, but Wilford Woodruff (then president of the LDS church) released "The Manifesto" in 1890 which states that the Church would follow the law of the land, which had outlawed plural marriage. There were some plural marriages still happening outside the U.S, but no more were officially sanctioned or approved by the LDS church in the United States or other areas where it was illegal. Most existing polygamist families continued to live together after this time, and the practice began to die out due to attrition.
From this was born the FLDS church, who still had strong beliefs about plural marriage and continued to practice it. One of their strongholds was Hildale/Colorado City. They no longer recognized the president of the LDS church, and sustained their own prophet and president, and splintered from mainstream Mormonism. They are not affiliated in any way with the LDS church, other than they do share some common beliefs about Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the "Plan of Salvation". In Utah, however, they are pariahs in many ways.

So, southern Utah towns. Yes, Hildale was notorious for not tolerating outsiders. Pretty much everyone in that town answered to the FLDS president (Jeffs), from the mayor to the chief of police. Was a pretty messed up place for a long time. To say "How could the LDS church allow them to exist?", what does that mean? Grab your torches and pitchforks? A better statement would be, "How could the State of Utah allow them to exist?" The LDS church has nothing to do with Hildale or their lifestyle, but the state does. They've had a long standing agreement to not prosecute people in plural marriages, unless there is something like neglect or child endangerment happening, which they have pursued much more aggressively in the last 10 years or so (statutory rape was one of the charges against Jeffs). Also, now that Jeffs is behind bars, the town is actually much more open than it used to be. There are social workers and advocacy groups in the town now, new law enforcement, etc. I'm sure there are still issues, but they're much more transparent than they used to be.

Okay, last point. Let's get back to the OP's original statement, that welfare fraud is rampant among some polygamist communities. This I can agree with 100%. I know someone personally that works for a polygamist owned company here in Utah, so he as a bit of inside information on their mindset. They view, and are taught, that the government, local, state, and federal, are the enemy, and they should try to cheat, rob, and steal from the government at every opportunity. What is described about "single mothers" collecting welfare is exactly how it usually goes down. This behavior is why most of them eventually get busted for fraud or tax evasion.

So, painting with such a broad brush for the people of the great state of Utah based on the FLDS town of Hildale is just a complete misrepresentation. Are there bad apples everywhere? Of course. Does Utah have issues with opiods? Pollution? Infrastructure? Ya, of course. But overall, it's a great place to live. Come visit our National Parks, they're awesome! And by the way, Salt Lake City now has more non-Mormons than Mormons.

a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Unless they are all claiming to be renting rooms, how??
Each person who applied would have to claim a household income along with the number of people in the household ect. If someone else in the household was getting benefits they'd have to claim them. I'm not saying they couldn't do it fraudulently but I've lived in low income units and seen a few boyfriends and husbands hurriedly loading their crap in a car and bailing out before welfare showed up for a home inspection because someone reported them. A few wives and a dozen kids all living in a HUD subsidized house would be quite noticable you'd think?