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BUSINESS: America: #22; 49; 54 and Falling Fast

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posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:16 PM
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JackJuice - You need to check the definitions - or else you're comparing apples
and oranges. ...Ie., the Global Finance study likely used several parameters
to define "best company" - Forbes for example looks only at the bottom line.


So it was completely arbitrary and pointless...

The richest businesses are in America. I fail to see what else matters.


It amazes me how a country as rich as America can have such a terrible literacy rate. It absolutely cannot be unintentional. There is no way. It's a calculated decision, akin to marketplace eugenics, and it has to be stopped. The people need to be educated, the corporate goons need to be stripped of their money and prestige, and the America I held dear to my heart as a child must be reborn.


Right...It has nothing to do with massive drug problems, or huge amounts of poor immigrants flooding into our country, right? Has to be some massive government conspiracy, even though huge amounts of money is pumped into education every year.


Back to politics for a sec... I tend to like democratic constituents more than republican ones, and here's why. Democrats would never elect men like: David Duke. Strom Thurmond. Jesse Helms. Rick Santorum. These men are unfit to clean litter from the streets. They should have been neutered before they had a chance to impregnate the help. They are representative of all that is wrong with Republican politics. How can you ever have any respect from your opponents, as long as you choose to protect and employ such pathetic, racist, mouth-breathing parasites?


Not like Democrats like the Kennedy's, who are drunken murderers, right? Or the Clintons. Nothing corrupt there. How about the Democrats who like to compare Republicans to Nazis, like Dean? Another good one is Kerry. The guy is a hero in Vietnam.

Just so everyone knows, more Democrats voted against civil rights then Republicans.


The answer to our problems isn't necessarily legislation, or litigation, or impeachment. It's education, pure and simple. If critical thinking was taught in middle school we wouldn't have half the problems we have today. Americans decided a long time ago they wanted a hands off system of politics. I think it's high time we reevaluate that decision because it's hurting us.


Yea, we shouldn't let grown adults make their own decisions with their lives...


"If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, and if you're still a liberal at forty you have no brain." I'd like to add another line, which is "if you're still partisan at 50 you should be exiled and beaten with pointy sticks."


By saying you like Democrats more, you become partisan. Look at your own posts. There's a clear liberal slant to them. Look at the people you most relate to. Are you going to tell me Soficrow isn't a bit extreme?


Of course when you consider the roots of America, it's no surprise we're lying, cheating, and murdering. The whole country was founded on saying one thing and doing another. If we're ever going to cure the disease, we have to assess the reason for its existence. Hypocrisy runs as thick in American veins as Patriotism, it's part and parcel to the American way of life. Every SUV with a "no blood for oil" sticker is testament to that fact.


Not like in other nations, say France, for instance, who get completely ignored when they screw-up...

If you want to come off as fair, and not as liberal anti-American, then you can't simply focus on the flaws of America, and let other nations get off completely.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by Disturbed Deliverer]




posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:57 PM
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I think that to reduce this to a relative question really misses the point. On the whole, America's still as attractive a place to live as any developed nation pretty much, fine. Is that to say that there aren't things to work on here?
The relativism of it isn't really the point, it's only a tool for provoking questions. For example if I say "America is behind nations X, Y, and Z in healthcare. How can we catch up?", is it really that we have to catch up with X, Y, and Z, or is it just a suggestion that our health care system could perhaps be better and that we should look into it?

If you get to a certain point and say "Thats far enough, I'll stay right here", you're going to stagnate. Progress is important, even when you're already great. So although the tone of a thread like this might be upsetting to some people, it is occasion for a much-needed talk about how to improve from here. Just because somebody questions authority, questions decisions, and probes the less pleasant possibilities of our situation does not make them anti-American.
Soficrow might be in fact be some kind of evil pinko commie America hater. How the heck would I know just from reading a few a few pages worth of material over a short period of time? I'm just saying that's not the only possibility. Unpleasant issues are still legitimate issues, even if the opinions and points of one holds in relation to them are questionable (in the subjective judgement of the reader).


Just for example: I want the Raiders to win a superbowl as much as anybody does. I'm a huge Raiders supporter; they are my favorite football team. All the same, I think their owner ought to be shot and about 1/3 of the team belongs on the practice squad at my old highschool. Doesn't make me anti raiders- I just see problems with them that ought to be addressed, because they haven't won a superbowl since the year I was born and they probably wont do it again until the year I die.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:04 PM
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I think that to reduce this to a relative question really misses the point. On the whole, America's still as attractive a place to live as any developed nation pretty much, fine. Is that to say that there aren't things to work on here?
The relativism of it isn't really the point, it's only a tool for provoking questions. For example if I say "America is behind nations X, Y, and Z in healthcare. How can we catch up?", is it really that we have to catch up with X, Y, and Z, or is it just a suggestion that our health care system could perhaps be better and that we should look into it?


The problem is the people asking those questions have agendas. People bring up arbitrary lists to try and push free healthcare, which causes a great deal of problems which get completely overlooked.

And if you're goal is to simply improve America, why say we're behind nations? The tone of this topic wasn't how to improve America, but to make America look bad, like all of Soficrow's topics.

There's no need to make a topic about American problems, then talk about how we're ranked this or that number by some biased poll. I'm perfectly willing to discuss America's problems.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

JackJuice - You need to check the definitions - or else you're comparing apples
and oranges. ...Ie., the Global Finance study likely used several parameters
to define "best company" - Forbes for example looks only at the bottom line.


So it was completely arbitrary and pointless...





Not at all. Quite relevant. Go back and read the material again.






The richest businesses are in America. I fail to see what else matters.




The richest businesses have offices in America, and are incorporated in America, usually as "foreign owned" - they operate internationally without nationality or national loyalty.







It amazes me how a country as rich as America can have such a terrible literacy rate. It absolutely cannot be unintentional. There is no way. It's a calculated decision, akin to marketplace eugenics, and it has to be stopped.







Astute observation. Sharp.







The people need to be educated, the corporate goons need to be stripped of their money and prestige, and the America I held dear to my heart as a child must be reborn.


Right...It has nothing to do with massive drug problems, or huge amounts of poor immigrants flooding into our country, right? Has to be some massive government conspiracy, even though huge amounts of money is pumped into education every year.





Hmmm. Couldn't be how that money is actually used, or what it's used for, could it? ...Maybe who actually gets it? Cuz it doesn't get to the classrooms.




The answer to our problems isn't necessarily legislation, or litigation, or impeachment. It's education, pure and simple. If critical thinking was taught in middle school we wouldn't have half the problems we have today.





Seems perfectly obvious to me.






Are you going to tell me Soficrow isn't a bit extreme?





How so, exactly?







If you want to come off as fair, and not as liberal anti-American, then you can't simply focus on the flaws of America, and let other nations get off completely.





Good morning?!

...The US government is in now session. Bills, new legislation, acts and the budget are being debated RIGHT NOW in the Senate and in Congress. ...These activities will affect ALL of America, potentially for generations.

But you think it's against the rules to talk about it - never mind critique the issues?! Or the government's activities?

Hullo. Part of being a citizen in a democracy is participating in the democratic process - and part of a citizen's responsibility is paying attention.



Re: Talking about other nations. FYI - Other nations have nothing to do with US legislative activity, the US national budget or US policy.


.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:14 PM
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Not at all. Quite relevant. Go back and read the material again.


The only goal of a business is to make profit. If American companies turn the largest profits, they're the best. You can't throw in some other areas and say that makes them better.


The richest businesses have offices in America, and are incorporated in America, usually as "foreign owned" - they operate internationally without nationality or national loyalty.


You mean they have factories in China producing goods. It doesn't really matters. They're still American companies at the end of the day. Besides, if this applies to American companies, it also applies to European companies. It's part of having a global market.


Hmmm. Couldn't be how that money is actually used, or what it's used for, could it? ...Maybe who actually gets it? Cuz it doesn't get to the classrooms.


There are misuses of the funds at the state level, but that doesn't mean we haven't seen an improvement in our education system. If you want to have a real argument on how to fix the education system, fine. Actually offer up ideas, don't badmouth it and act like nothing is being done.


How so, exactly?


Someone who goes around posting about various medical epidemics, or America running out of water isn't all there. It's like the nuts who were out there talking about Y2K. It's all good to be prepared, and aware, but you take it to another level.


...The US government is in now session. Bills, new legislation, acts and the budget are being debated RIGHT NOW in the Senate and in Congress. ...These activities will affect ALL of America, potentially for generations.


Is this topic about actual legislation? You just seemed to want to throw out statistics showing how awful America is.


Re: Talking about other nations. FYI - Other nations have nothing to do with US legislative activity, the US national budget or US policy.


Yet you feel the need to compare us to them with this topic...



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer

Not at all. Quite relevant. Go back and read the material again.


The only goal of a business is to make profit. If American companies turn the largest profits, they're the best. You can't throw in some other areas and say that makes them better.




...I don't actually know what parameters Global Finance used - I just offered up the standard explanations for discrepancies. But in fact, there are other legitimate considerations to the "bottom line" in determining how "good" a company is - some of these do have to do with long term profitability and methods of accounting, others are about corporate culture and quality of life.







The richest businesses have offices in America, and are incorporated in America, usually as "foreign owned" - they operate internationally without nationality or national loyalty.


You mean they have factories in China producing goods. It doesn't really matters. They're still American companies at the end of the day.





No. They're not. "Foreign owned" means they're not American.






Besides, if this applies to American companies, it also applies to European companies.





Absolutely. American-owned corporations are incorporated as "foreign-owned" when they have offices in other countries. The important point here is that a lot of companies people think are American really are not.


[Skipping over the education bit cuz it's too big a topic right now]







How so, exactly?


Someone who goes around posting about various medical epidemics, or America running out of water isn't all there. It's like the nuts who were out there talking about Y2K. It's all good to be prepared, and aware, but you take it to another level.





My point is that there are real crises present in the USA that are being completely ignored while Bush is on a huge spending spree creating phenomenol debt - and leaving no money at all to take care of the homefront. ...I have provided good references and sources to substantiate my claims - and trust me - pretending problems aren't real doesn't make them go away. They'll just cost more to fix when you finally get round to it.








...The US government is in now session. Bills, new legislation, acts and the budget are being debated RIGHT NOW in the Senate and in Congress. ...These activities will affect ALL of America, potentially for generations.


Is this topic about actual legislation? You just seemed to want to throw out statistics showing how awful America is.





You were casting wide aspersions - I responded widely. ...But yes, my current theme is legislation that has been, is being or will be enacted this session. This article puts a different and important light on the current legislative issues. I posted this topic because I think it's interesting and because it shows clearly that things are not what we think they are.







Re: Talking about other nations. FYI - Other nations have nothing to do with US legislative activity, the US national budget or US policy.


Yet you feel the need to compare us to them with this topic...




Nope. Not me. These are the demographic studies used by bankers, insurers and investors who make decisions that affect Americans..



.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by soficrow
* Women are 70 percent more likely to die in childbirth in America than in Europe (NYT, Jan. 12, 2005).


This number was particularly disturbing to me. One has to wonder what statisitics they were looking at when coming up with these numbers.

Were they looking at “skilled attended births” as the indicator or the “maternal mortality ratio”? Skilled attended births is always a much lower number and usually a narrower gap. An advantage obviously exists in developed countries where health care is provided by the government, for obvious reason, its free.

Here are the rates according to WHO/UNICEF/UNFPA for 2000. I'd like more recent, but have not found them.
www.who.int...

The first number you will see next to each country is the "reported maternal mortality ratio" and the second number is the "adjusted maternal mortality ratio". These numbers are based on deaths per 100,000 live births.

Australia 5 8
Canada 4 6
France 8 17
Germany 5 8
Ireland 4 5
Israel 11 17
Italy 4 5
Luxembrg 18 28
Mexico 60 83
Netherlnd 11 16
New Zeal 7 7
Norway 11 16
Russian Fed 45 67
Spain 3 4
Sweden 1 2
UK 7 13
USA 11 17

Another interesting chart shows that in the UK women have a 1 in 3800 chance of maternal death and the USA women a 1 in 2500 chance. Based on number of total maternal deaths per women population.

The U.S. admits that this number is far to high (has not gone down since 1982) and attributes the number of deaths to many things such as domestic violence, smoking, substance abuse, and mental illness.

Here is a terrifying thought, in the USA domestic homicide is the number 1 cause of death for pregnant and recently pregnant women.
www.amchp.org...



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:51 PM
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...I don't actually know what parameters Global Finance used - I just offered up the standard explanations for discrepancies. But in fact, there are other legitimate considerations to the "bottom line" in determining how "good" a company is - some of these do have to do with long term profitability and methods of accounting, others are about corporate culture and quality of life.


European companies don't seem to be doing all that well, along with the entire European economy. I highly doubt they have more long term profitability.

The other two are basically what I figured "best" meant. Arbitrary things like that don't matter. You can't pass that off as statistical fact. Information like this makes up the majority of the "facts" you give.


No. They're not. "Foreign owned" means they're not American.


Could we see actual examples?


Absolutely. American-owned corporations are incorporated as "foreign-owned" when they have offices in other countries. The important point here is that a lot of companies people think are American really are not.


If you agree that the same applies to European companies, then why would you post information showing the best were mostly European? It seems you're only willing to address this information when it makes America look negative, and not when it comes to other nations.


My point is that there are real crises present in the USA that are being completely ignored while Bush is on a huge spending spree creating phenomenol debt - and leaving no money at all to take care of the homefront. ...I have provided good references and sources to substantiate my claims - and trust me - pretending problems aren't real doesn't make them go away. They'll just cost more to fix when you finally get round to it.


These problems you mention will most likely never come to anything.

And honestly, Bush isn't going crazy with his spending when you look at what he had to deal with his first four years. The budget will go down in the next four years. Spending is already going down. Our debt isn't as bad as Europe's is compared to the GDP.


You were casting wide aspersions - I responded widely. ...But yes, my current theme is legislation that has been, is being or will be enacted this session. This article puts a different and important light on the current legislative issues. I posted this topic because I think it's interesting and because it shows clearly that things are not what we think they are.


Maybe you should have made those connections in your first post, or sometime in the pages of posts in between then and now.


Nope. Not me. These are the demographic studies used by bankers, insurers and investors who make decisions that affect Americans..


It's your topic. You don't post things you don't care about, or put stock in. You posted this topic comparing us to Americans. You went out of your way to gather various sources and pieces of information.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:59 PM
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Here is a terrifying thought, in the USA domestic homicide is the number 1 cause of death for pregnant and recently pregnant women.


This is not so terrifying when one considers that there aren't that many things that kill women of childbearing age. Car crashes and childbirth are probably #2 and #3.

Perhaps more terrifying is the fact that most pregnant women who are murdered are murdered by the child's father.

When one considers the number of women who die during childbirth in the US, it must be considered that our population is much more diverse than most countries and the range of deviant behavior is also much higher given the freedom we enjoy. Living an unhealthy lifestyle, in and of itself, is not yet illegal.

[edit on 05/3/9 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott


Here is a terrifying thought, in the USA domestic homicide is the number 1 cause of death for pregnant and recently pregnant women.


This is not so terrifying when one considers that there aren't that many things that kill women of childbearing age. Car crashes and childbirth are probably #2 and #3.

Perhaps more terrifying is the fact that most pregnant women who are murdered are murdered by the child's father.
[edit on 05/3/9 by GradyPhilpott]


300,000 pregnant women are victims of domestic violence each year, that is terrifying. Actually death during pregnancy accounts for a large amount of the deaths due to embolism, cardiomyopathy, pregnancy induced hypertension, etc. I think suicide due to post-partum depression is pretty far up there accounting for around 10% of the deaths. Death during abortion. An interesting study in Britain found that 1 in 3 pregnant womens deaths (35%) were in obese women, so apparently obesity plays a role. Though they didn't attribute it directly to the condition of obesity, it just seems to be the case year after year. African American women are 4 times more likely and Hispanic women are 1.7 times more likely than white women to die of pregnancy-related complications in the USA.
www.cdc.gov... great charts here

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.womensenews.org...
Recent Centers for Disease Control studies have revealed startling disparities in maternal death ratios in the United States, based on factors such as geography, race, ethnicity, marital status and age.

Women in urban areas and in a swath of southern states that extends from North Carolina to New Mexico are far more likely to suffer a pregnancy-related death than women in other areas.
Black women are four times more likely to die than white women from childbirth, pregnancy and their complications.
Hispanic women in the United States are about 1.6 times as likely to die as white women, and those born outside the United States fare much worse than those born here.
Unmarried women, women over age 35, and women who already have many children have a higher than average risk of death.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 01:01 AM
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It took me a while to get around to replying to this post. I had to eat 3 potatoes just to keep my bile down. I was going to just ignore you, but then I remembered, you have to address the problem otherwise it will never go away...


Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
The richest businesses are in America. I fail to see what else matters.


The richest businesses 'in America' aren't in America. They use international banks, pay no taxes on their enormous international holdings, support just enough community programs to get their tax breaks on domestic infrastructure maintenance, and generally suck money OUT of America. You have a very simplistic understanding of international business, and it shows.


Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Right...It has nothing to do with massive drug problems, or huge amounts of poor immigrants flooding into our country, right? Has to be some massive government conspiracy, even though huge amounts of money is pumped into education every year.


You're actually blaming immigrants for the failure of American kids to read? That takes balls sir. You should consider politics. To be able to stomach that sort of insanity makes you ideally suited to a world where the truth doesn't matter, and the important part is playing to the prejudices of your constituents.

Huge amounts of money being pumped in should fix the problem, but it continually fails to do so. Why? Because the money is handed to politicians and policy makers instead of teachers. They spend money on things like efficiency consultants, lobbyists, lawyers, sports teams and new fields, bonuses for administrators and other indirect expenses. They WASTE the money, otherwise our kids would be able to read, now wouldn't they? Well not necessarily...

Part of it, the biggest part, is the failure of parents to prioritize, to sacrifice, but you can't fix that with tax dollars, so lets focus on desks and books and teacher training.

It's the drugs? Got to be the drugs. Because nobody did drugs in the sixties when literacy rates were at accectable levels. C'mon... If it IS the drugs, it's not the illegal ones, it's the OTC and prescription drugs being prescribed to shut kids up and essentially kill their inquisitive spirit, which can be such a bother to parents on the run... Parents are obviously incapable of raising their own children, so the schools need to step up and do a better job of it.

Or we could just blame the immigrants...


Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Not like Democrats like the Kennedy's, who are drunken murderers, right? Or the Clintons. Nothing corrupt there.


I clearly said Democratic politicians are no better, or are you part of that illiteracy statistic? Either you can't read or you're selectively quoting me to distort the facts for the benefit of those who won't read back far enough to know you're full of offal. I'll say it again. DEMOCRATIC POLITICIANS ARE NO BETTER. They're just designed differently to appeal to a different demographic. You are so stuck in your partisan paradigm, the world could be engulfed in flames, awash in misery, spinning out of control, and you'd still be parroting the same tired old crap because that's your comfort zone.

There's no easy way to say this, so I'm just going to say it; you've been brainwashed. I GUARANTEE that given a week locked in a motel room with a professional deprogrammer, you'd start to understand the error of your ways.



The answer to our problems isn't necessarily legislation, or litigation, or impeachment. It's education, pure and simple. If critical thinking was taught in middle school we wouldn't have half the problems we have today. Americans decided a long time ago they wanted a hands off system of politics. I think it's high time we reevaluate that decision because it's hurting us.



Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Yea, we shouldn't let grown adults make their own decisions with their lives...


What the hell are you talking about? Where did I say adults shouldn't be able to make their own decisions? That's exactly the OPPOSITE of what I was saying! You think critical thinking is a bad thing? You would rather have a nation full of you's? Well I guess that goes without saying...

Seriously, if this is what you consider debating, I'd love to know what your idea of masturbation is (probably involves pedestals, microphones, an audience, and a moderator .


Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
By saying you like Democrats more, you become partisan. Look at your own posts. There's a clear liberal slant to them. Look at the people you most relate to. Are you going to tell me Soficrow isn't a bit extreme?


I said I liked more of their constituents, because they don't elect homophobic racists, or at least they don't elect overtly homophobic racists. Unlike you and others who will remain nameless (until they step up with some smack of their own) I don't allow anybody else to do my thinking for me. I REFUSE to be categorized based on your limited ability to perceive the world. Keep your labels for someone docile enough to wear them.

Soficrow is doing her best to encourage a culture of responsibility and learning. You can't say the same. Given the choice between helping others and helping herself she has chosen to help others. Do you think she spends hours typing and researching and debating with the likes of you because of the enormous paycheck?! You aren't fit to judge her, and you're not fit to judge me.


Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
Not like in other nations, say France, for instance, who get completely ignored when they screw-up...


Are we talking about France? No, we're talking about America, and how to address the problems Americans face. To hell with France! For right now we're worried about America. We're trying to fix American problems. Maybe when we figure out a workable system, we'll export it. Just because your neighbor murders and rapes and exploits the poor doesn't give you the right to! "Well they screwed up, that means we can screw up too..." What sort of backwards-ass logic is that? If you want to talk about other peoples problems, go somewhere else, we're talking about the future of America. You are cordially not invited.


Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
If you want to come off as fair, and not as liberal anti-American, then you can't simply focus on the flaws of America, and let other nations get off completely.


I don't give a damn how I 'come off', I care about finding solutions to problems. I care about change, and growth. Once again, I'm not letting anyone off the hook. I have not once said France is better, or Canada is better, or the EU is better. Not that you'd notice one way or another because it seems you can't take the time to actually read what is written.

Does this make you feel better - "South Africa leads the world in rape, and Scotland can't keep out of its cups long enough to win independence from the wankers that colonized them." Do you feel better now? THE WHOLE WORLD IS MESSED UP! I know that! I just want to fix this country so I can have kids without feeling guilty about the world I'm bringing them in to.

What is the allure of such an obviously broken machine? Are you a professional? Do you get paid to make no sense? What is YOUR slant, who puts the words in your mouth? Or maybe you're just a product of the American education system combined with indolent, irresponsible parents.

What saddens me most is the fact that you MAY be indicative of the majority of the American public. If that's true, I'm praying for a meteor to wipe this whole god-forsaken country off the map.

By the way, we are running out of fresh water, and if you cared less about maintaining 'sides' and more about the pursuit of truth, you might have cared enough to check the facts. Due to the enormous amount of precipitation (especially in the Sierra Nevadas) and the early spring expected, this year will be one of the worst droughts on record. Because of simple, petty, human greed, the most plentiful substance on earth will soon be a commodity more expensive than silver.

I'm actually just kidding about that whole water shortage thing. On an unrelated note, do you have any water you'd like to sell me? I'll trade you gasoline for it? Promise when you get thirsty enough to try drinking it, you'll videotape the results, and with your last ounce of strength, mail me a copy of the tape.

Rock on dude, you're really an inspiration to us all. Seriously.
We need people like you to drive home the importance of education and parental guidance.


[edit on 9-3-2005 by WyrdeOne]



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 01:11 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
You're actually blaming immigrants for the failure of American kids to read? That takes balls sir.


In no small measure, the educational crisis in California, and elsewhere, can be blamed on those who insist on accommodating illegal, non-English speaking pupils. A whole bunch of educational fiascoes can be attributed to that bunch, when you stop to think about it. So it may not be the fault of immigrants per se, but it is the fault of those who would seek to aid and abet criminals.

[edit on 05/3/9 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 01:37 AM
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Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
So it may not be the fault of immigrants per se, but it is the fault of those who would seek to aid and abet criminals.


I agree with you Grady, but there is more to the issue than illegal immigrants. That being said, I think we need to make up our damned mind (as a country) about this issue. Either we close the borders and expel the illegals, or we open the borders and welcome them with open arms. Maintaining the middle ground is not a sensible alternative in this scenario. California is certainly no model for efficient government, and it's probably not a good place to start fixing problems (they're just going to float away anyway).

The root of the problem in my opinion is much deeper. It doesn't matter if little Jimmy's class if full of illiterate mexicans, that should in no way impinge on his ability to learn to read. And bi-lingual education has nothing to do with it, children have a simply stunning aptitude for languages when started young. Children of only average inteligence have no problem learning 4 or 5 languages, as long as they're learned young. However, when the curriculum gets brought down to the lowest common denominator (usually with the goal of improving test scores), little Jimmy suffers. Now, that's when little Jimmy's parents are supposed to pick up the slack...

There's the root. It's mostly a parental involvement issue. How many parents read to their kids these days, and what are they reading? My mother weaned me on Odysseus and Hercules, Homer (not Doh!) and Crates. She read to me in the womb, all the way up until I could read on my own. She instilled in me a love of erudition, and it has not faded one iota.

To be honest, school taught me social skills and little else, but maybe it can be better for MY kids than it was for me. Or maybe, and this would be a shame, maybe that's all school is good for; teaching kids the realities of bullies and cliques and violence and cheating and all the various facets of human interactions.

If parents are incapable of teaching their kids anything, the school needs to find a way to pick up the slack - our very society depends on it. If the school is incapable, the parents need to pick up the slack. If nobody cares about the damned kids they're going to come out all screwed up. Just look at the news...

I'm sure you care about American kids as much as I do, so what do you propose be done about the problem? I think a rational, objective analysis of the problem is long overdue.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 01:40 AM
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It continues to amaze me the effort several of you put forth to prove how "bad" the US is.

Let's see, the President is a power hungry fascist dicator, so let's give the federal government greater controls over our children's minds and our medical well being. (Socialized medicine isn't working as swimmingly as those living under it will have you believe either).

That sounds genius to me.

Really, think about it.

It's all political - what's right or what wil truly fix what's wrong with America has nothing to do with it. See Fredt's Social Security thread for examples of that.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by PistolPete
Let's see, the President is a power hungry fascist dicator, so let's give the federal government greater controls over our children's minds and our medical well being. (Socialized medicine isn't working as swimmingly as those living under it will have you believe either).


Who's saying this? :looks around:

I have no problem giving the federal government more power..assuming we completely revamp the way the federal government does business. Giving them more power now is like giving a chainsaw to a nine year old. (They might get some wood chopped, but chances are they'll hurt someone in the process)

Socialized medicine is a money pit, no doubt. Capitalist medicine is an oxymoron. There is a middle ground we can find, I'm sure of it.

How about reasonable controls over how much companies can charge for life saving medications? How about emergency treatment (life saving) for those living below the poverty line (with exceptions for the incredibly stupid ie: self inflicted gunshot wounds incurred during robberies). How about a culture of learning and comraderie instead of a culture of profit at all costs?

I don't want to pay with my taxes for my neighbors sprained ankle just because he's poor - let him walk it off. I don't want to pay so the bi-polar chick next door can sit on ass and collect SSI. However, because I'm poor, I would appreciate a little help when I'm diagnosed with cancer or heart disease. Of course, many currently unaffordable treatments would be emminently affordable if profit weren't the number one goal of the health care industry.

I understand it's a difficult line to toe, but I think if we were a little less cut throat as a society we might have more luck. If we were a little more cut throat, we could a hell of a lot more efficient, but we all know that road and where it leads...

The answer, as usual, is somewhere between the extremes.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 02:13 AM
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Good. I am glad to see we are ranked so low on the communist scales.
Our healtcare is unfair? Life is unfair.
10% of American families struggle to feed themselves? Excellent, that means we are culling the weak.
Child hood poverty? Great, those children will learn the value of a dollar the hard way.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 02:19 AM
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Originally posted by mwm1331
Our healtcare is unfair? Life is unfair.
10% of American families struggle to feed themselves? Excellent, that means we are culling the weak.
Child hood poverty? Great, those children will learn the value of a dollar the hard way.


I'm glad to see you're in touch with the Christian values of charity and brotherly love. Seriously, how do you balance that equation? Are you being serious? You've got to be an imposter on one front or another. The whole idea behind Christianity is that it was contrary to evolution, diametrically opposed to the cold hard realities of the world. Do you think Jesus only washed the feet of CEOs? Do you think he took money from his disciples and hoarded it like a fat old dragon? Do you think he charged fair market value for his healing services? Explain yourself or I will ignore you as a complete yahoo. If you're representative of modern Christian values, it's no wonder religion is a dirty word.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 02:22 AM
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I care whether you ignore me or not for what reason wyrdone?



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 02:25 AM
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Christian values are not to be found in the high taxes of welfare secular state, but rather through the works Christians do through their churches and volunteer work.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 02:46 AM
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Another gem Mwm1311!! it's good enough to be added to my signature



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