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BUSINESS: America: #22; 49; 54 and Falling Fast

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posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 05:14 PM

I've waited for hours in American emergency rooms. Once for seven hours with a girlfriend who had a head wound. Once for four and a half hours, puking blood into a napkin sweetly provided by the receptionist.

You know why you wait? There are people with far more serious injuries. You are always guarenteed to see a doctor, though. You are not guarenteed that same right in a free medical program, like the UK's. You may not see anyone if you go their free ER's. They may not even have nurses around.

The best universities maybe, but graduate students are abandoning our country in record numbers. America is no longer the education mecca it used to be.

Where are the abandoning our nation to go to?

The richest corporations are certainly here, you're right about that. But last time I checked their big houses and fancy cars and many mistresses don't help me pay the bills or find a good paying job.

They pay the salaries of god knows how many Americans.

You asked for proof, but I'm not sure what you actually want proof of. I'll just give whatever I can think of. The following is all from the CIA world factbook:

GDP Per Capita
Germany: $27,600
France: $27,600
UK: $27,700
USA: $37,800

GDP Growth
Germany: -.1%
France: .5%
UK: 2.2%
USA: 3.1% (based on 2003, this year we're back up to almost 4%)

Germany: 10.5%
France: 9.7%
UK: 5%
USA: 6% (this figure is more like 5.5%, and the German and French figures have grown recently)

Public Debt (% of GDP)
Germany: 64%
France: 68.8%
UK: 51%
USA: 64%

* Foreign applications to U.S. grad schools declined 28 percent last year. Foreign student enrollment on all levels fell for the first time in three decades, but increased greatly in Europe and China. Last year Chinese grad-school graduates in the U.S. dropped 56 percent, Indians 51 percent, South Koreans 28 percent (NYT, Dec. 21, 2004). We're not the place to be anymore.

It's nice to see that you're basing this off a single years worth of data. I mean, this could have nothing to do with things like politics, right?

* "The European Union leads the U.S. in...the number of science and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) expenditures; and new capital raised" (The European Dream, p.70).

This could possibly have something to do with the fact that the EU has a far larger population then we do. Just a thought...

* "Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, p.70).

Once again, the EU has a far higher population then we do. Is it any surprise they'd be producing literature?

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 05:17 PM
I would just like to point out that patriotism and believing your country is #1 are very diferent things

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 05:22 PM
Maybe if all these liberal America-haters would leave the country like they continue to promise to do but never seem to act, these numbers would rise significantly.

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 05:33 PM

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Maybe if all these liberal America-haters would leave the country like they continue to promise to do but never seem to act, these numbers would rise significantly.

Wouldn't work. It's a pyramid system - needs the poor labor at the bottom to feed on.

Disturbed Deliverer - Even 4 years ago, the USA was still a world leader in science and higher education. Gone now. Reputation destroyed.

Really you guys. Why do you think so many people are so upset? ...We're responding to reality, not some kind of induced chemical imbalance.


posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 05:45 PM

More socialist editorials on ATSNN. Who would have guessed?

I'm fascinated by all this talk about how Europe is so much better than the United States.... especially considering that the population of Europe will be extinct within a few generations and, today, couldn't even defend itself from Russia if the United States didn't spend so much money defending it.

So, yeah, European countries have, on average, a better standard of living than the the US (under some measurements). That's not because the European system is better, it's because anyone can have a great standard of living if they don't have to be bothered with:
1)Having Children
2)Defending themselves

The bottom line is that Europe's current success is fleeting. It isn'y replacing its population at the same time that militant muslims are beginning to flood its major cities. It'd also reliant on American power for protection.

So, to all those socialists who think that the EU is fundamentally better than the US, I ask you to look 25 years into the future. How wonderful will life in the EU be when it is run by people who share the same outlook as Osama bin Laden? And, no, I am not saying that all Muslims are terrorist... what I am saying is that the EU is being flooded with Muslims who happen to agree with the teachings of militant islam.

And, as for standards of living, I have to say that the standards used to compare the US and EU are off. Ultimately, every citizen of a socialist EU country is not in charge of their own economic destiny. They are, to be frank, just a modernized serf. Americans, who live in a free enterprise society, have a reasonable degree of control over their lives. We have, that is, a chance to work for ourselves and prosper. I'm guaranteed the right to my property.... how many Europeans can say the same?

And.... I just have to point this out... who uses European technology? Who wtaches a European movie, or listens to a European song? Who uses a European invention? Sorry, folks, but the United States is the planet's inventor. It is the technology that has been developed in the United States that runs the world.

Oh... ands another thing... a national health care system in the US won't cure the health problems of the US. It will just make the taxpayer pay for them.

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:03 PM
statistics are statistics....everybody will find or make thier own spin.....after reading some of the posts..i find it morbidly funny how so many don't/won't see the obvious......what is that ask?? no.. it is not the fact that AMERICANS think they are the best at is the fact that there is so much public hate, questioning and suspicion about the actions and direction of the AMERICAN govt. notice that i did not say 'American people.....the citizenry are sheep and lemmings that get lead around, there is no power in the current AMERICAN citizenry.

AMERICA is falling in all aspects of life accept power projection and influence. despite all the varied opinions..the one thing i think we can agree on is that there is something wrong and there are no attempts to try to fix it and what was tried, has failed or failing.....................................

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:08 PM
Everything about this thread pisses me off. I'd tear sofi a couple of new orifices over it... if not for that pesky little fact that she's right. Beneath any disagreements with our government I see myself as a patriot (meaning that I think that me being born in America actually made America the best country in the world, lol). You wont find me ever "bashing" America, but maybe this isn't bashing. There is a real problem which goes mostly ignored, because ignoring it has somehow become the "patriotic" thing to do.

Nowhere is it written that America has to be number one. "We the people... ?in order to be number one?..." I guess they meant to put that in the preamble to our constitution and just forgot. I'm OK with the fact that we're not the best at everything. What I'm not OK with is the defficiencies of many services our government provides the the complete lack of access to other services which ought to be provided. Even if we were number one, I'd still be upset with the state of many things in our country. America's a dang fine country. It's not that there's anything wrong with our country; there's just a few things wrong in our country. We ought to fix those things up and get on about our business (the business of proclaiming ourselves to be number one perhaps).

Our education system is a joke; It's daycare with grades. The standardized tests, redundant bureaucracies, and cookie-cutter program have to go. We need to re-think the entire system from the ground up to introduce meaningful standards, financial responsibility, and student accountability. No wonder we're not number one in education. The usual call is the expand and over-fund a broken system. Nobody important calls for a real shakeup because they live by Richard J. Daley's rule: "Back no losers, make no waves." (a slogan so useful that it kept that man in the office of Chicago's mayor for over 20 years until he died in office- even though he very commonly uttered what today would be called "Bushisms".)

I could go through the laundry list a paragraph each but it would take a while. Healthcare, law enforcement, infrastructure construction, assorted failing socialized insurance programs- we've got more bureaucracy and waste and failed programs than we know what to do with.

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:21 PM
Thank you Vagabond for a balanced opinion.

It really saddens me when those campaigning for a stronger, more responsible America are automatically labeled socialists. I think socialism is a dream, like communism, like democracy. It looks great on paper, but presents several insurmountable problems in the implementation.

I don't think any of the modern political paradigms offer any better than we've got. We need a completely new system, using the good points of all the others. I've been a proponent of a meritocracy for some time. The current America is about as far away from a true meritocracy as possible without going full circle.

In case it slipped by some people, I never said Europe was better. I said America has problems that need to be addressed - argue that point at your own peril. Pointing out the problem doesn't make me un-American. It makes me a responsible, forward-thinking American. Go ahead and play ostrich if you want, it makes no difference to the future whether or not you attend.

All those who refuse to admit to the problem are actually symptoms of the problem. We are a culture of refined, encouraged idiocy and mediocrity. One need only peruse a TV guide for validation of that opinion.

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:26 PM
a few apples to apples suggestions...

first off... for those that say the poor of america are better off than the rich or poor of other countries...
hogwash... from someone who has seen the bad, the worse and the worse than that...
there are whole sections of states that look like they were pulled out of poor mexican villages... and remember... the cost of living is WAY higher here.

second: it is hard to compare, by rote numbers, the "productive capacity" unless you look at all the variables... like population

third: thank you for the post sofi:
although you have picked up some students... they seem to be difficult... as they wont read their homework...

it is alot more interesting to read threads from educated people who research the facts and argue the facts...
than reading responses from people that just say "NO IT ISN'T"

there is always bias in media, and that is why there is debate over credible arguements...
but argueing over a "feeling" is about as useful as debating with a fencepost... look up the facts and present them...

No comment needed for my post,
but people, at least read the links before you say "YOU'RE WRONG"... because you might save yourself some embarrasment.

back to the program...

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:33 PM
Well, yes,

There are many problems with America. Crime has made many of our major cities barely habitable.

So, on at the outset, I agree with Soficrow.

The problem, though, is that the solution that some people have offered -- greater centralized planning along the lines of a European model -- would only aggravate the problem.

You see, a lot of our nation's domestic problems are the exact result of experiments with socialist ideas in the past. Public housing in major cities, for instance, generated an urban culture and climate of violence that is, 30+ years after Johnson's 'Great' Society program, still hurting America.

Some here have pointed out that the US doesn't have a national health care system. Ok. So how will it help anyone if the state takes care of individuals who chose to smoke or become overweight? A socialized health care system won't discourage poor lifestyles.... on the contrary, it will reward them.

Let's also look at education. The US, already, spends far more, per student, on public education than it does on private education.... yet private schools consistently outperform public schools. Why? Because throwing money at something and putting a centralized bureaucracy in charge isn't the answer. Those two things can't eliminate gangs and violent behavior. If, anything, those two things have served to cushion and protect 'gangzta' culture over the last 30 years. Again, why is that? Because when taxpayers are made to pay for the bad behavior of those who aren't carrying their own water that bad behavior isn't eliminated. Greater socialization, greater bureaucratic centralization, and an abandonment of personal responsiblilty will only INCREASE the problems the US is experiencing because it will create conditions where even the laziest, dumbest, and most violent person will always get a check at the beginning of the month.

So far we've only been looking at broad statistics. I ask all of you guys... where would you rather start a business? Or try to invent something? Or try to move up in the world? Ultimately, the path of upward mobility is far greater in the US than it is in the socialist-leaning EU.

Ultimately, survival is the only determinant of what is the 'best' way to run a society. Europe, as a recognizeable entity, won't be around in a few generations. The current status of its citizens doesn't matter, then, as all the pleasures and standards of personal development in the world don't matter if your society has stopped producing children at a rate that can keep the society going.

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:43 PM
opps nevermind

[edit on 8-3-2005 by LazarusTheLong]

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:48 PM
being number 1 alone. no friends no allies.out there floating in mindlessness. believed your number one.well everyone thinks like that once in awhile.but to continue down the path of tillions of dollars in debt and being the most hated country on the planet right now.ouch i think you need a face lift or something.view outside the box see the cause and does not match what is being said.being number 1 and acting like number one are 2 different things.remeber the world eats at the same table and would like to be number 1 also.better to teach the world to be happy at being themshelves then being just a 1 lonely first prize dog fight. that all the winner really gets is a used dog the end of the day look around and see what number 1 means inside yourshelf.

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:13 PM
The good ole' US of A is such a dwindling, used, corrupt has been of a nation.
Oh my...
I don't know whether to cry or laugh, but I can simply say this: if the good ole' US of A is sucking so hard now, I guess about time to bail from this hell hole, huh?
What say ye' US members?
Lets just bail off this bleeding stuck pig and head to Canada or Mexico?
maybe Australia?
*Puts hands to face cheeks*
We need to get out of here before things really get bad!!

Opppss, did I forget to utiilize the sarcasm emoticon?


posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:28 PM
Vegemite I agree with you, in every patriotic American hart our nation is always number one, and for those out there that don't have anything better to said than calling names, take that and bite you hart out.

djohnsto77 you must hate American so much that you spend much of your time discrediting what are proven facts. I wonder why?

The entire world depend on the US for their corporate ties and the corporate power, US and us the Americans are a big money making pot, but guess what they are profiting from all of us, and we are getting nothing but budgets cuts, slaps in the face with laws to favor corporations against the American consumer.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by marg6043]

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:38 PM

Foreign investors held more than 38 percent of the $4 trillion in U.S. Treasury bonds, but only 11 percent of the $6.1 trillion in agency bonds (such as those issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac); 23 percent of the $6.5 trillion in corporate bonds; and 11 percent of the $15.5 trillion in equities outstanding.


At the start of 2004, total U.S. securities amounted to $33.4 trillion (some 50 percent of the world total).

the U.S. has a stubborn current account deficit because it grows faster than its trading partners and spends a disproportionate share of its growing income on imported goods and services.

Foreign-owned assets in the United States

Foreign-owned assets in the United States increased $286.4 billion in
the third quarter, following an increase of $270.7 billion in the second.

U.S. liabilities to foreigners reported by U.S. banks increased
$46.6 billion in the third quarter, following an increase of $41.2 billion in
the second.

Net foreign purchases of U.S. Treasury securities were $14.1 billion in
the third quarter, down from $29.7 billion in the second.

Net foreign purchases of U.S. securities other than U.S. Treasury
securities were $90.5 billion in the third quarter, up from $88.8 billion in
the second. Net foreign purchases of U.S. stocks were $2.9 billion, up from
$1.8 billion. Net foreign purchases of U.S. corporate bonds were a record
$84.7 billion, up from $51.1 billion. Net foreign purchases of federally
sponsored agency bonds were $2.9 billion, down from $35.9 billion.

Net financial inflows for foreign direct investment in the United
States were $53.1 billion in the third quarter, up from $32.6 billion in the
second. A shift to net inflows on intercompany debt from net outflows and a
small increase in reinvested earnings more than offset a decrease in net equity
capital inflows.

Foreign official assets in the United States increased $60.1 billion in
the third quarter, following an increase of $73.3 billion in the second.


Like I said, if investing in the United States was not good then foreigners would quit doing it. The USA is still a good place to invest your money. Name another country that you would rather risk your capital in other than the USA.

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:42 PM
I'm getting a little tired of your bashing America, soficrow. What does it matter to you where America falls on any scale. I can tell you that most Americans are not overly concerned with rankings, per se, but at the same time many of us are very concerned with the quality of primary and secondary education. Rankings rise and fall and where we are weak we will strive to be better. It is this dynamism that has made America so resiliant over the centuries.

In the meantime, soficrow, instead of spending all your time researching what you don't like about America, why not spend some time telling us about how wonderful Canada is? Oh, I forgot. No one cares about Canada.

Frankly, you're beginning to make me sick and there must be more than a few who feel as I do. Or is points all you care about?

[edit on 05/3/8 by GradyPhilpott]

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:42 PM
Soficrow, I saw this article days ago (could be similar) and the United States is very low on the charts for just about everything.

One cant blame our citizens because they think we're the best. Its part of the pride and glory. Its great to be able to say "I'm an American"

I do beleive though, that its good that something like this article gets published. Its good to know while we are extremely proud, we should drop our arrogance level a couple of notches..hmmm... Lets be humble for we now know some statistics that point out we may not be the best at everything.

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:44 PM

Umm how about Canada? The TSE Has been outperforming the Dow for quite some time now. We are a resource giant and if you want to get into the China and India boom invest in some Canadian resource companies NOW. Potash corp is a good pick as is any company involved in the Tar sand or Natural Gas as it was just found out that Alberta has 23 Trillion Cubic Meters more then was originally thought.

North America is decaying fast. I include Canada in this as I see it with my own eyes. Our power infrastructure, roads, public transit(or lackthereof), lack of highspeed rail links, pitiful rural broadband penetration, piss poor rural cell phone reception etc. This list goes on and on.

Check out this comparision between Canada and China. Alot of the comparision is relevant to the USA as we are so similiar.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by sardion2000]

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:48 PM
Grady if Sofi threads make you so sick, god forbid we don't want anything to happen to such a patriot as you, please by all means don't read her threads.

Its plenty of threads that will keep your health in good spirits.

I bet you and many other would love to see Sofi gone, but the truth is that she bring most of the best threads here in ATS, after the UFO one occurs.

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:48 PM

You have voted soficrow for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Another excellent post sofi

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