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Impeachment!!

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posted on Dec, 10 2019 @ 03:28 PM
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originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Wayfarer
This isn't accurate though.

It is, actually.


Its the United States Money, taken from yours and my pockets, and appropriated by a duly elected Congress. The fact that the President is playing seeming political games with that money is ALL OUR BUSINESS.

No, actually, it isn't, because he isn't playing games, he is doing his job.

Sorry, but neither you nor me - nor Congress, gets to micro-manage The President of the United States.

Get back to me when you have evidence of a crime. Meaning, an actual crime, not just if he does something you don't like.


But now we're just in some silly schoolyard slapfight. I say you're wrong, you say I'm wrong. We're both exactly where we started and nothings changed.

Oh, and get back to me when you have evidence or proof that it's the President's job to do with Congressionally appropriated money whatever he wishes without oversight or recourse......




posted on Dec, 10 2019 @ 03:59 PM
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originally posted by: Wayfarer
But now we're just in some silly schoolyard slapfight. I say you're wrong, you say I'm wrong.

Ummm... no. You are claiming non-evidence is evidence. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong, and that there is currently no evidence that Trump has done anything wrong.


Oh, and get back to me when you have evidence or proof that it's the President's job to do with Congressionally appropriated money whatever he wishes without oversight or recourse......

Ahem...

"Under Section 503 of the Foreign Assistance Act, a president “is authorized to furnish military assistance, on such terms and conditions as he may determine, to any friendly country or international organization, the assisting of which the President finds will strengthen the security of the United States and promote world peace.”



posted on Dec, 10 2019 @ 05:37 PM
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Democrats are so dumb. They're walking into an obvious trap that will damage the entire party, and expose many of wrongdoing. You can tell them it's a landmine and they still step on it, LOL.



posted on Dec, 10 2019 @ 05:45 PM
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a reply to: carewemust
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is as stupid does.



posted on Dec, 10 2019 @ 05:53 PM
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originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Wayfarer
Why did Trump withhold Ukraine money exclusively then as opposed to other countries aid money (who were equally notorious for being corrupt)?

Its none of my business, or yours. It is his prerogative as President.

PERIOD.


This isn't accurate though. Its the United States Money, taken from yours and my pockets, and appropriated by a duly elected Congress. The fact that the President is playing seeming political games with that money is ALL OUR BUSINESS.

Where have you been for the last 3+ years while your party flushed over 40+ million dollars of taxpayer money right down the crapper chasing unicorns??? Clueless statements like this is why it's impossible to take people like you serious.



posted on Dec, 10 2019 @ 05:55 PM
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a reply to: Sillyolme



Stupid Is , What Stupid Does .....


Forrest Gump



posted on Dec, 10 2019 @ 06:10 PM
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originally posted by: mtnshredder
a reply to: carewemust
You can't fix stupid. Stupid is as stupid does.

So much TRUTH embodied in a single meme.

Obi-Wan Trump says: twitter.com...



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 07:36 AM
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originally posted by: mtnshredder

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Wayfarer
Why did Trump withhold Ukraine money exclusively then as opposed to other countries aid money (who were equally notorious for being corrupt)?

Its none of my business, or yours. It is his prerogative as President.

PERIOD.


This isn't accurate though. Its the United States Money, taken from yours and my pockets, and appropriated by a duly elected Congress. The fact that the President is playing seeming political games with that money is ALL OUR BUSINESS.

Where have you been for the last 3+ years while your party flushed over 40+ million dollars of taxpayer money right down the crapper chasing unicorns??? Clueless statements like this is why it's impossible to take people like you serious.


I mean, Trump's personal taxpayer paid vacations have spent far in excess of that but you do you man and keep talking about how clueless I am without any trace of irony.....



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 07:39 AM
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originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Wayfarer
But now we're just in some silly schoolyard slapfight. I say you're wrong, you say I'm wrong.

Ummm... no. You are claiming non-evidence is evidence. I'm simply pointing out that you are wrong, and that there is currently no evidence that Trump has done anything wrong.


Oh, and get back to me when you have evidence or proof that it's the President's job to do with Congressionally appropriated money whatever he wishes without oversight or recourse......

Ahem...

"Under Section 503 of the Foreign Assistance Act, a president “is authorized to furnish military assistance, on such terms and conditions as he may determine, to any friendly country or international organization, the assisting of which the President finds will strengthen the security of the United States and promote world peace.”


Does 'Furnish military assistance' mean he can hold up assistance already furnished (but not delivered) by congress? I guess you're argument is watertight if you can make the words mean anything in any context....



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 08:01 AM
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originally posted by: Wayfarer
" "Under Section 503 of the Foreign Assistance Act, a president “is authorized to furnish military assistance, on such terms and conditions as he may determine, to any friendly country or international organization, the assisting of which the President finds will strengthen the security of the United States and promote world peace.” "

Does 'Furnish military assistance' mean he can hold up assistance already furnished (but not delivered) by congress?

It hasn't been 'furnished' by Congress, it has been allocated. There is a lot of red tape in the process from Congress allocating funds by law, before the funds are actually delivered to the recipient.

But yes. It is part of his responsibility as President.



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 08:17 AM
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originally posted by: tanstaafl

originally posted by: Wayfarer
" "Under Section 503 of the Foreign Assistance Act, a president “is authorized to furnish military assistance, on such terms and conditions as he may determine, to any friendly country or international organization, the assisting of which the President finds will strengthen the security of the United States and promote world peace.” "

Does 'Furnish military assistance' mean he can hold up assistance already furnished (but not delivered) by congress?

It hasn't been 'furnished' by Congress, it has been allocated. There is a lot of red tape in the process from Congress allocating funds by law, before the funds are actually delivered to the recipient.

But yes. It is part of his responsibility as President.


Section 503 does not encompass the full breath/scope of the complexity of this issue. The president is empowered to do what he will with the money within the confines of the allowances laid out by congress when the money is appropriated. If he sits on money congress wants spent for a reason congress doesn't agree with, its effectively a hijacking of congressional money/power. You are using 503 as some blanket to suggest that the President wields absolute power, and that whatever checks and balances exist are trifles to be ignored via one of many grey and ill defined sections of law.



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 08:24 AM
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Are you denying the executive branch has oversight responsibility over foreign aid?



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 08:46 AM
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originally posted by: shooterbrody
Are you denying the executive branch has oversight responsibility over foreign aid?


No, simply that there isn't some steel stamped clear explanation for what exactly the powers/limitations are. There are some vague references in a couple of statutes that give direction, but ultimately if Congress wants the money to go to Ukraine and doesn't put any conditions on it, Trump is supposed to send the money (and if he doesn't he is supposed to notify congress why he isn't sending it).

We can all dispute the reasoning behind this (and its ultimately fruitless), but in the end as far as I can tell when an impasse such as what I've described above happens it seems it goes to the Supreme Court to decide.



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 09:26 AM
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a reply to: Wayfarer

Foriegn Policy Roles of the President and Congress are definitely complicated and have been from the beginning.


The United States Constitution divides the foreign policy powers between the President and Congress so that both share in the making of foreign policy. The executive and legislative branches each play important roles that are different but that often overlap. Both branches have continuing opportunities to initiate and change foreign policy, and the interaction between them continues indefinitely throughout the life of a policy.
This report identifies and illustrates 12 basic ways to make U.S. foreign policy. The President or the executive branch can make foreign policy through:
1) -- responses to foreign events
2) -- proposals for legislation
3) -- negotiation of international agreements 4) -- policy statements
5) -- policy implementation
6) -- independent action.
In nearly all of these circumstances, Congress can either support the President's approach or seek to change it. In the case of independent Presidential action, it may be very difficult to change policy in the short term; in the case of a legislative proposal by the executive branch or treaties and international agreements submitted to the Senate or Congress for approval, Congress has a decisive voice. In most cases Congress supports the President, but it often makes significant modifications in his initiatives in the process of approving them.
Congress can make foreign policy through:
1) -- resolutions and policy statements
2) -- legislative directives
3) -- legislative pressure
4) -- legislative restrictions/funding denials 5) -- informal advice
6) -- congressional oversight.
In these circumstances, the executive branch can either support or seek to change congressional policies as it interprets and carries out legislative directives and restrictions, and decides when and whether to adopt proposals and advice.
The practices illustrated in this report indicate that making U.S. foreign policy is a complex process, and the support of both branches is required for a strong and effective U.S. foreign policy.


The link above is pack full of historical transitions of how roles have overlapped and evolved. It seems that this is a long standing feud between legislative and executive. Check out the short 10 page report created in 1999 and realize there has never been a concrete answer. Fascinating read and perhaps someone else can perceive more out of it than I.

I only see that the President has a right to temporary withhold the release of defense measures/ funding that Congress allegates. They then have the ability to veto or modify their legislation if they disagree. Equal branches...equal abilities.



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 09:28 AM
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a reply to: Wayfarer



We can all dispute the reasoning behind this (and its ultimately fruitless), but in the end as far as I can tell when an impasse such as what I've described above happens it seems it goes to the Supreme Court to decide.

oh
not attempt to impeach for obstruction of congress???

lol



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 09:41 AM
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originally posted by: Wayfarer
Section 503 does not encompass the full breath/scope of the complexity of this issue.

I agree completely. The Executive powers of the President when it comes to Foreign affairs - including disbursement of foreign aid - are substantial and outside the purview of Congress.


The president is empowered to do what he will with the money within the confines of the allowances laid out by congress when the money is appropriated. If he sits on money congress wants spent for a reason congress doesn't agree with, its effectively a hijacking of congressional money/power.

If Congress appropriates money to a nation or group that the President determines has serious corruption or national security issues, the President is well within his Rights - and in fact is duty bound - to withhold the funds - either temporarily, or if he determines it is an actual National Security risk, permanently.



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 09:43 AM
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originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: Wayfarer



We can all dispute the reasoning behind this (and its ultimately fruitless), but in the end as far as I can tell when an impasse such as what I've described above happens it seems it goes to the Supreme Court to decide.

oh
not attempt to impeach for obstruction of congress???

lol




This is a misunderstanding/mis-characterization. The impeachment is for the crimes of obstruction of justice and abuse of power.

The Supreme Court would decide on the legality of Trump withholding the Ukraine Money specifically and whether or not it should be forcible disbursed to Ukraine or not (assuming Trump was still withholding it). This is the currently understood remediation for issues such as this independent of other crimes.



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 09:46 AM
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originally posted by: tanstaafl

If Congress appropriates money to a nation or group that the President determines has serious corruption or national security issues, the President is well within his Rights - and in fact is duty bound - to withhold the funds - either temporarily, or if he determines it is an actual National Security risk, permanently.


You are saying this with absolute certainty without mentioning that the ultimate determiner if what the president thinks he's duty bound to do is the Supreme Court, and not him.

I find it a little humorous that your prerogative is to perpetually paint the president and his powers as absolute, above any other branch of government, and beyond reproach. That position would certainly protect Trump completely in the current climate, but is a patently biased view (and one I'm sure you would find odious if I were making the argument with Obama or the future president Occasio-Cortez).



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 10:04 AM
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originally posted by: Wayfarer
You are saying this with absolute certainty without mentioning that the ultimate determiner if what the president thinks he's duty bound to do is the Supreme Court, and not him.

In a roundabout way, maybe, but they certainly aren't there to micro, or even macro manage him. He is the President, the Chief Executive of the Executive Branch of the US Govt.

The job comes with quite a bit of power if you hadn't noticed.


I find it a little humorous that your prerogative is to perpetually paint the president and his powers as absolute, above any other branch of government, and beyond reproach.

Please don't go all fake-news on us and put words in my mouth. I never, ever said, or even suggested, his power is 'absolute', that is just nonsensical TDS deflection.

Now, make a valid argument against the fact that the President has considerable powers when it comes to Foreign Affairs - or
.
edit on 11-12-2019 by tanstaafl because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 11 2019 @ 10:07 AM
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a reply to: Wayfarer



This is a misunderstanding/mis-characterization.

no
the abuse of power is directly related to such
they are attempting to impeach potus for doing his job



This is the currently understood remediation for issues such as this independent of other crimes.

not any more
obstruction of congress if you go to the court

and this is what you are supporting?



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