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Bible contradictions & a Mystery

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posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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I believe in a man in history that was against the politics of his time and the control of the Roma empire.

I believe in the Jewish man that wanted his people to be free.

I believe that he was human and was at the right time in history when the the church was born and in need of an icon.

But you ask me of a son of God and I tell you that our creator have many sons and daughters and we are all of them.

He didn't had the need of only one divine son for humanity, the creator created humanity created the world and he has the power to ended without another middle man.

I believe Jesus was real a teacher a visionary, but he never ask to be martyred into divinity.

I do not believe in the divine Christ.




posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 11:04 AM
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*scribbles and nods* Thanks marg. Always interested into why you don't like the idea of Jesus as His son, but would rather you initiate if you wanted to discuss it.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 12:00 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
I believe in the Jewish man that wanted his people to be free.
I believe Jesus was real a teacher a visionary, but he never ask to be martyred into divinity.


Marg - can i ask you a question..?
Is your surname SIMPSON maybe?

The JEWISH MAN as you so lovingly refered to Jesus was in fact ARRESTED PERSECTUTED and SENT TO HIS DEATH by his fellow jews of the senadrin...
Poncius Pilate was simply pushed into a position he didnt want to be in.

There are letters from Rome to Pilate telling him to calm his act down as his taxes where too high and his punishments too severe and rebellion was in the air in Judea..he was amazingly close to being relieved of his position of command in judea..

Then to top it of, the senadrin, the highly ortodox sect of jews come to him and say they want a young guy named Jesus arrested because hes bad for their church and causing problems...We have to remember that Jesus was´nt simply a carpenter but a member of the house of David and heir to the throne of Judea..The marriage between him and the Magdalena (her being of another house of isreal, Benjamin) was a strategic alliance between two families.

The house of David lost control of Judea in a inter-tribal war centuries before between them and all the other tribes of Isreal for unknown reasons and the land occupied by the Benjaminites..In this manera the house of David by marrying with the house of Benjamin regained its throne and formed an alliance sufficienlty strong to challenge Rome..

Pilate is left with the politacally hot potato of the senadrin asking him to jail if not Kill the heir to the throne, and pilate doesnt want to know because one more mistake and the man is waiting for a monthly welfare cheque...So he washes his famous hands of the subject..and according to JEWISH laws, christ is put on trial and executed by his own people.. and yes he was martyd into divinity to fulfill a prophecy..a prophecy of a faith much older than judeasim...a mix of egyptian folklore and the cult of mithras from Persia.. dont you consider coincidental how Horus, an egyptian god, and Jesus where both born on the same date...and the both were persecuted for their beliefs and the both died knowing that their respective "fathers" was waiting for them on the other side and it was their fate...

Marg i recommed that you read the book named "the holy blood and the holy grail"

[edit on 15-4-2005 by andy1972]



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 12:26 PM
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I read the book, ha,ha, and many others. Yes I believe Jesus was a man, as real as you and me.

Now the divinity has always been an issue, funny it comes back over and over again whenever a discussion of religion comes around.

Yes he was put to death, occurs he was, after all he was questioning the Empire.

Is a thin line that has been fading for quite some time between the real man and the divine man.

But if you look at the historical facts, they are not many, but has been absorbed on only one book the bible.

Is not much about Jesus the man that you can find outside the bible, due to the facts that historians of the time don't even mention Jesus.

Only the bible has the account of witnesses of the time.

Another Issue that has been discussed before over and over. Jesus was a very important man among his followers of the time.

But historically he was not well known outside his people, or we will have tons of information on him by the writers of the time. Beside the bible ones.

All these things have to be taking in consideration. If you are a religious believer you don't need anything else but the bible.

If you are looking for facts outside the bible you pretty much will find a wall, and not enough information.

That is what make people like me question what is real and what is not. The mysteries of the bible and the mysteries of religion will for ever hunts us in our lives.

We forever will have the questioning of how much is real and how much is a myth and a fantasy.

Is nothing wrong to learn from the teachings of a wise man, but I have a problem when the wise man is turned into a myth of divine birth.

That is my problem the only proof if the one given in the bible and nowhere else but on prophecies foretold after the facts again in the bible.

Questioning everything has gotten me in more trouble that I can count, but still I never take anything for face value, I guess that is how I am.



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 03:53 PM
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Marg...youll find that the former judean general captured and converted by rome to the official writer of its history, flavius josefus, infact mentions the man but in only 2 lines of the official history of he roman occupation of judea..the man named christus..mentioned for rebellion..

and we have to remember that his name was jesu ben josef...jesus christ is mearly the translation in greek.


[edit on 15-4-2005 by andy1972]



posted on Apr, 15 2005 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
because if gives the impression to many that only through the church as a mediator you can only achieve salvation can be close to God.




I'm glad to know your church background. It bothers me when the catholic denomination(or others ) are referred to as the "church". The CHURCH is individual people who have come to God through Jesus Christ.

I couldn't agree with you more that God wants a very personal relationship with each person individually. God walked with Adam and Eve, that was very persona,l to have the God of the universe at your side. I know very little about the7th day adventist denomination but I know quite a bit about the catholic denomination. I've said this before it doesn't let you come to God in personal closeness and in truth. I'm actually glad you don't follow the catholic faith. People are to personally know God for themselves without the "middleman" you mention. Since Jesus is God when we know Christ we know God, no middleman involved.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 01:50 AM
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Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by marg6043
because if gives the impression to many that only through the church as a mediator you can only achieve salvation can be close to God.




I'm glad to know your church background. It bothers me when the catholic denomination(or others ) are referred to as the "church". The CHURCH is individual people who have come to God through Jesus Christ.

I couldn't agree with you more that God wants a very personal relationship with each person individually. God walked with Adam and Eve, that was very persona,l to have the God of the universe at your side. I know very little about the7th day adventist denomination but I know quite a bit about the catholic denomination. I've said this before it doesn't let you come to God in personal closeness and in truth. I'm actually glad you don't follow the catholic faith. People are to personally know God for themselves without the "middleman" you mention. Since Jesus is God when we know Christ we know God, no middleman involved.

[edit on 15-4-2005 by dbrandt]

[edit on 15-4-2005 by dbrandt]

Hi dbrandt...
In the Old Testament there was the Sinagogue..There Christ was preaching about the new Covenant.....came to fullfil the Law of God
What is that?
The church(Ekklisia) as you say .....is a number of people,yes corrcet...''where two or three are gathered in my name''..........we need the teachings from the priests as was the teachings of Christ.....He came to FULLFILL the Old Testament .....not destroy the old law of God,which many prophecies pointed to His coming......the crucifiction was prophesied,the curse of man (His crucifiction is the curse of man....in order to redempt us from that sin)

helen...



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by helen670
we need the teachings from the priests as was the teachings of Christ
helen...


I agree that we need pastors/reverends/lay leaders who have studied and been ordained to lead congregations.

And if a priest solely declares that Christ is the way back to God for forgiveness of ones sins. Trouble is to find one who will only emphasis Christ is hard. They throw in Mary, the eucharist, dead saints, hail mary prayers as part of the way we are saved.

I hope I say this clearly. Faith/trust in JESUS CHRIST alone is what removes sin and then He alone living in us is what changes us as we surrender our lives to Him.

If any pastor/rev/priest of any denomination says Christ is the way, then they add a but, mary, works etc are also needed, they ARE NOT preaching salvation, they are preaching works and no one works his/her way to heaven and if you are living by works to get to heaven then you are not saved and are on your way to hell.

We do good works because we are saved not to be saved.



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 09:55 AM
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Um...I have a question. If Jesus is actually "god" then why is it said that you have to have him to make it to heaven? if the two are one...doesn't that mean you must believe in god and accept god to get to heaven?



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by LadyV
Um...I have a question. If Jesus is actually "god" then why is it said that you have to have him to make it to heaven? if the two are one...doesn't that mean you must believe in god and accept god to get to heaven?


Excellent question. Yes, you must believe in God and accept God to get to heaven. It's difficult for us to conceptualize a lot of what Jesus has to say about God. Personally, I think it's easier to first recognized Jesus as God's son first. Jesus pointed up to God when he spoke, he did not say, "You must bow down and worship me" and for good reason. He was asking people to recognize him as the Messiah (messenger), son, and by following his teachings which come from his father, that is how you get to Heaven. Now, heaven apparently is a very spiritual place and God is not confined to the same types of physical limitations we are. The Holy Spirit is an entity described as a part of God that can enter into people to bring clarity, understanding, feeling of joy, peace, etc. Now, given the properties of what we know of God, being omnipotent and all, he can be physical (by creating us and his son being born of a woman), he can be spiritual (like the Holy Spirit, being everywhere at once), and has no problems mixing the two. We have no way of seeing this daily because o/~ We're livin' in a material world and we are material girls/guys o/~ Hope this helps. I think your posts are interesting.

Pray, trian, study.
God bless.

[edit on 27-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by LadyV

Um...I have a question. If Jesus is actually "god" then why is it said that you have to have him to make it to heaven? if the two are one...doesn't that mean you must believe in god and accept god to get to heaven?


Very simple one is the Church needed to humanized God with Jesus and second it needed to make a connection, as incredible as it sounds people bought it.

Now, wonder it took 300 years later to make the connection and took that long to be able to come out with the plot to fit the scriptures.

Christianity has build his whole concept on the power of the 3 of 1 and 1 in 3.



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 10:23 AM
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Hiya again LadyV. I had some questions if you don't mind:


From LadyV's signature line
Heaven is achieved through deed, not creed. -- Emanuel Swedenborg


I presume this is part of your signature line because it is a belief you share or at least a position you support. If this is quote is true, then what can a person do in 80 + or - years that would entitle them an eternity of happiness? Also, does that mean only people who've reached their elder years are going to get to Heaven or is it that they get special priviledge for eternity over a teenager who has had little opportunity to have a long record of achievements? Do women get a higher place in heaven since they live longer and can do more in a lifetime than males? I am genuinely curious about this frameword of thought.

Do you want me to work on the 'iron chariots' part too or were my previous points addressing Bible contractions not helpful?

[edit on 27-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
Very simple one is the Church needed to humanized God with Jesus and second it needed to make a connection, as incredible as it sounds people bought it.


This was God's idea, not ours. Don't believe me? Ask Him yourself.

Pray, train, study.
God bless.



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by marg6043
Very simple one is the Church needed to humanized God with Jesus and second it needed to make a connection, as incredible as it sounds people bought it.


This was God's idea, not ours. Don't believe me? Ask Him yourself.

Pray, train, study.
God bless.


I don't know about that saintGod, the last time my creator and I had a discussion of what await us after death he never mention Jesus or the bible.........but he sure has showed me what "haven" looks like and what I left back "home".

My creator also told me that everything is just the way I left it before coming to this human life to fulfill my role and achieve enlightenment.

You know it doesn't take much to talk to your creator at all, if you belief it will be there for you.

By the way haven is just a place full of lights because we all beings made of pure energy and we glow with the purity of our energy.

Next time you are talking to God perhaps ask "it" to show itself to you......you may be up for the treat of your life but don't show fear because that will turn it away.

By the way I was only about 6 years old when I knew what the creator was all about, it has been always around me.

Life is just a steeping stone, on our way to enlightenment.



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 11:25 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
I don't know about that saintGod, the last time my creator and I had a discussion of what await us after death he never mention Jesus or the bible.........but he sure has showed me what "haven" looks like and what I left back "home".


Strange...he did with me. In fact, he gave me a lot of push-back for not studying and listening to his Son's final words some years later too. I wasn't given word on "haven". I do know a good bit about Heaven though. You were talking to God, right? When was the last discussion?


Originally posted by marg6043
My creator also told me that everything is just the way I left it before coming to this human life to fulfill my role and achieve enlightenment.


I haven't gotten a Heaven update recently, but told to focus on right now and let Him take care of the rest. For me specifically, I was spending too much time dreaming of the future which caused me to tune out my mission.


Originally posted by marg6043
You know it doesn't take much to talk to your creator at all, if you belief it will be there for you.


I agree it's easy to talk to God. God is there whether I believe it or not. He's been there the whole time, I just refused to see it.


Originally posted by marg6043
By the way haven is just a place full of lights because we all beings made of pure energy and we glow with the purity of our energy.


Perhaps. I don't have any information on it and haven't felt the need to inquire.


Originally posted by marg6043
Next time you are talking to God perhaps ask "it" to show itself to you......you may be up for the treat of your life but don't show fear because that will turn it away.


I did. I can send ya a MS Word .doc on it if you like. I trust that you wouldn't call me looney and pitch it aside without a second thought.


Originally posted by marg6043
By the way I was only about 6 years old when I knew what the creator was all about, it has been always around me.


That's all you. No person has the ability to say they know otherwise.


Originally posted by marg6043
Life is just a steeping stone, on our way to enlightenment.


No problems with that statement. Here's why I find your posts intriguing. A lot of things you've said seem to be spot on with the nature of good and understand. What confuses me by what you've saidis, it is obvious to me that you see the fruits of God, yet when talking about God specifically, it sounds like there's static on the line. What is it about what I'm saying about God that you don't like specifically?

[edit on 27-4-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by LadyV

Um...I have a question. If Jesus is actually "god" then why is it said that you have to have him to make it to heaven? if the two are one...doesn't that mean you must believe in god and accept god to get to heaven?


Hi LadyV
Yes, Jesus is God. Sin had to be atoned for by one who had no sin of His own. God is the only one who matches this criteria. Another thing is that all the physical, mental and emotional abuse Christ received before and during the crucifiction was enormous, then add onto that every sin of every person who has or will ever live. Then this sin load was literally put on Jesus and He felt them as if He had done them. I don't believe a person can comprehend what this would have been like for Christ, anyway only God could have been able to bear that enormous load of all those combined things.

[edit on 27-4-2005 by dbrandt]



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 11:40 AM
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T'is a good point *nods*. I like that perspective.



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 11:47 AM
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SaintGod, I had experiences with "things" none of this "world" since I was a child, but it has always been personal and because I was never told to share if I didn't wanted it I had kept it to myself and close family members.

I will never call anybody a loony and that is one of the reasons I don't share much about it because I will not want to be call loony myself either.

We humans "are supposed" to be held by earth believes and interpretations, is all part of our roles as "been humans".

When you know what is beyond the human mind, our lives, sadness, pain and sorrow became better to understand and then is when you experience the joy of just been human and just enjoy your humanity with others.

Life is supposed to be a challenge that is why we chose to be here, but when you know that this life is just a short time, it makes thinks more bearable and when you know you are free of earth made believes you get to live happier whatever time you have here.

Happiness and a fruitful life is achieve better and then we can help others.

When you understand that your role in life is a way to make you soul better it becomes more bearable and is not need to find a scapegoat to blame our short comings.

When you learn to overcome unhappiness then you are truly free.

I will say not more, if you are open to understand you will but if you are bind by earthy believes you will never understand and is OK, is just part of being human.

I am human after all but I have a different uderstanding of life.



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
I don't know about that saintGod, the last time my creator and I had a discussion of what await us after death he never mention Jesus or the bible


This is contradictory to what christians believe. As christians we need to present Jesus Christ, if we don't we are not accepting a responsibility God has gievn us. Doesn't mean you have to think what we think but it needs to be presented to you and to be accepted or rejected.

When I talk with people on ats and I hear of other views people have on God and eternity and how you arrive there(LadyV for example and wiccan beliefs) it doesn't mean I have to believe them, and I don't get bent out of shape and angry.

So when christians put forth Jesus Christ it's info others can accept or reject.



posted on Apr, 27 2005 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
I will say not more, if you are open to understand you will but if you are bind by earthy believes you will never understand and is OK, is just part of being human.


Well, I guess that’s a bit of a shut-down then. If you don’t understand now, you never will? I’m glad God doesn’t feel the same way. “Seek and you’ll find”, “ask and it will be given to you” says He. Sorry I didn’t make it into your club, but you’re always welcome at mine.



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