It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

China quietly "threatens" Austrailia

page: 4
0
<< 1  2  3    5  6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:03 PM
link   
white_raven,

So basically what you're saying is that Taiwan doesn't have to do anything and it will be okay? I mean I get what you're saying but I don't see how Taiwan can do that. China really isn't gonna back down from this.




posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
csulli456,

You present a very idealistic view of things. How assured are you that you are right? I think the problem is that people like yourself are so convinced that they are right and are so convinced the world is black and white that all they have to do is go kill people and boom, everything is all happy and good and red white and blue, without ever considering that perhaps they might have been the ones wrong all along. What if God came down one day and told us authoritarianism, tyranny, etc., were all "good" and everything you percieve to be "good" was actually evil? Ever consider that? Or do you just choose not to think about it?
First off I dont believe in starting any war with the Chinese but if they start a war to aquire Tawain we should defend. People are tortured persecuted and killed every day in China for their beliefs. (I dont think we should invade China because it would be such a bloodbath for all involved but instead manipulate a new democratic government into place with the use of spies and whatever means at our disposal.) On the other hand it would not be right to let our friends the Tawainese to be taken over by such a cruel government. When you were a kid in school did you ever stick up for a friend that was being picked on or bullied or did you just look the other way? What if it was 30 of your friends being beat up by 300 other kids and you had other friends who could take them, would you do it? Thats what this is about we have a friend who may only survive if we stick up for them. It simply isnt right to look the other way. So if China starts it we will finish it, enough said. Secondly to think that God would come down and tell us that the definitions of good and evil are actually the opposite as to what we define is so insane unless infact your God happens to be the devil himself. We all know the difference between right and wrong whether or not we believe in God is not totally relevant.
Let me ask you a provocative question. As a parent, you must be authoritarian at times. With that in mind, are you going to say the authoritarianism is ALWAYS wrong? You imply that considering you think China is "evil."
As a parent it is my responsability to tell my child what to do so that she may know the difference between right and wrong. It is my responsability to help her grow into a unique individual with ideas of her own and at the same time keep her safe and protect her. There is a huge difference between punishing a child for not listening when you told them not to play with the electrical outlet then punishing a grown adult for saying that they dont agree with your opinion. I would never inflict physical harm or any harm at all on my child no matter what. Comparing being a parent to being a communist is totally ridiculous to say the least.
All I can say is, there is only so much in the world a person can control. We have to choose what we think is more important to protect. And don't love anything "good" (like freedom) too much. Everything has equal amounts of upsides and downsides. You have to keep an open mind.
My mind is very open and I always look at the whole picture which is why I am even on this site posting anything. You obviously too have a very open mind but it is my belief that while you may mean well you are not looking at the whole picture. That is if you do know the difference between right and wrong. I know that risks are high but to do nothing and look the other way is horrible. If you were kidnapped and forced to do as your captors said wouldnt you have so much hope that someone would rescue you and free you so that you could have your life back? We are the only hope to a lot of people out there. Again the issue with China as a whole would best be dealt with other ways then war, but if they were to invade and slaughter those in Tawain who stood up to them to prevent them from gaining control it would be even more of an atrocity then what actually happens in China today. All those who share the belief in freedom and whats right and good and just need to stick together or else they (the bad guys) are winning.
BTW, you're not unique when you say you considered joining the military. Just three months ago, I was on the verge of starting my entry into the U.S. Marine Corps. So don't love yourself too much.
I never stated my thought of joining the military to pat myself on the back. There are so many people here in my country who are much braver and courageous then me on that front and I have nothing but the upmost respect for them. I am alive in this world with this life because of great men and women just like them. I was merely stating why I am not over there fighting. I may not be brave enough to take up arms as so many have but it is because probably I am spoiled with this option. It is because of my great country that I dont have to join right now. But if the whole world went into a war and it was the US military`s need to dramatically upsize the military and so enact a draft, here I am. At that time for me and for millions of other Americans we will be ready and willing to fight for our country. Right now I am fighting on another front by stating these words to help encourage all those who are good to stick together and not tolerate someone beating up on our friends.
[edit on 8-3-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by DrHoracid
China considers Taiwan, which has been ruled separately since the end of a civil war in 1949, an inseparable part of Chinese territory which must be reunified eventually.


China lost Taiwan to Japan in 1895 and Japan give it up in 1945. In 1947, Taiwan became a nation after the commies took over the mainland and it's Constitution was written in 1946 for the mainland, it's just that Taiwan adopted it since the commies don't abide by it!

Today, Taiwan is about as much a part of China as Sri Lanka is a part of the United States.

Anyone who thinks differently is not denying ingorance!



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:55 PM
link   
csulli546,

First off, thanks for not calling me "Thong Boy." That was very low of you earlier, but it's good to know you've changed your ways.


Let me address one issue. Not everybody believes in good or evil. To us, it all depends on how we see things, and it doesn't have to be good or evil. And my "God example" was simply a hypothetical situation I came up with to make you think more. And I'm not sure it was successful, since you are pretty right on the idea that God is exactly as advertised in the Bible.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:58 PM
link   

See here lies the problem. We have to fight all your wars with you so that you don't forget about and decide not to protect us. We don't have a choice, because if we don't go along with America we may not have our defence ensured. We are really only in Iraq to ensure our defence. Most Australians didn't want to go to war.


Oh so you expect Americans to die coming to your country's defense? But you don't want to come to another country's defense that is weaker than you? Sounds kind of hypocritical to me that you expect others to die saving your country when you wouldn't do the same to save another.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
csulli546,

First off, thanks for not calling me "Thong Boy." That was very low of you earlier, but it's good to know you've changed your ways.


Let me address one issue. Not everybody believes in good or evil. To us, it all depends on how we see things, and it doesn't have to be good or evil. And my "God example" was simply a hypothetical situation I came up with to make you think more. And I'm not sure it was successful, since you are pretty right on the idea that God is exactly as advertised in the Bible.

Sorry I forgot to call you Thong Boy, Thong Boy, my bad. Good and evil are not to believe in rather they are words used to describe actual living things and or actions. Who is us anyway? My belief in God is not relevant here and I never said which God I believe in or which religion I follow or if I even believe in the bible or any religion at all. That is not at issue here. What is at issue is what are your beliefs in life? Are you the kid that turns his head and lets his friend get beat up or are you the man who stands up to those who threaten your friends?



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:35 PM
link   
csulli546,

I can see you're new here, so some advice. ATS is not your usual message board. So if you don't like showing respect for other posters, the message boards at IMDb.com may be more suited for you.

Good day.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by Rasputin13

Oh so you expect Americans to die coming to your country's defense? But you don't want to come to another country's defense that is weaker than you? Sounds kind of hypocritical to me that you expect others to die saving your country when you wouldn't do the same to save another.


Exactly! People like drfunk think it's perfectly natural and logical for the U.S. to rush to aid countries like France or Australia but nuts to help Iraqis or Taiwanese. It's the height of hypocrisy and vanity!



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:56 PM
link   

Originally posted by Rasputin13
Oh so you expect Americans to die coming to your country's defense? But you don't want to come to another country's defense that is weaker than you? Sounds kind of hypocritical to me that you expect others to die saving your country when you wouldn't do the same to save another.



Do what you want. In the terms of the ANZUS treaty, basically Australia is obliged to help the US if it comes under attack, but the US doesn't have to aid us, they are to consider it I believe. What i'm saying is that the US has a choice to come to our aid if it wants, but we rarely have a choice because we have to secure that aid, regardless of our feelings of the conflict.

Democracy at its finest, boys. Punish those who don't agree with you.

Australia has been a faithful dog and servant to America for the past 50 years and has been involved in nearly every major war alongside them. I've had family fight in WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam. These are all wars where the United States has been an ally of Australia. Australia also has fought recently in Afghanistan and Iraq. Just because we look like we won't go to Taiwan, all our efforts mean nothing?? this is the same treatment given to France and Europe, you feel you would never save them if they needed help because they didn't want to fight in one of your wars in Iraq.

There is no hypocrisy at all, we only expect help because time and time again we've been there to help out. Just because we may not go to Taiwan I don't see why we should be punished for not agreeing with America on this. Iraq was an illegitimate war for oil and profits, a racket that has so far created not only a fledgling democracy but a strengthening of terrorism in that nation. Iraq wasn't a US ally at the time and I don't think Taiwan has done anything for the United States except counter China. Nobody is gonna invade us in the far forseeable future and they will find it very very difficult to reach that capability for a large part of my life.

I shall pose you a question : If the Australian people and govt decide not to go to Taiwan because of differing viewpoints, what should the US response be?? taking into account of 60 or so years of being allies.

Here's what a Sgt in the Australian Army said about the whole ordeal :


Yeah, the chance of Australia interfering in any conflict over Taiwan is very remote. The way the issue is generally viewed here is that all parties involved (China, Taiwan, US) are acting like a bunch of school children fighting over a lollypop, and who all need a time-out in the corner. I mean, China is war-mongering, the US is scare-mongering, Taiwan for some reason is trying to pick a fight; they're all acting like dickheads.

I think the Aussie Government is quite happy to sit on its hands and ignore the issue completely, and just hope that both sides see sense. If push came to shove, and a conflict started, I think Australia would 'morally' side with Taiwan, but wouldn't get directly involved. I mean, I'm in the military, and I don't to go and fight for some stupid pricks who can't sort their own **** out.

Still, I believe that as the mainland gets more prosperous, social change is inevetable, and that Tawian will eventually reunite peacefully. I really don't think either side is stupid enough to start a war.


thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 8-3-2005 by drfunk]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
csulli546,

I can see you're new here, so some advice. ATS is not your usual message board. So if you don't like showing respect for other posters, the message boards at IMDb.com may be more suited for you.

Good day.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]

I see you can dish it out but you cannot take it in terms of insults. So are you actually at a loss for words? You failed to answer my question. Are you the kid who runs away when his friend is getting beat up or are you a man who defends your friends when they need it most?



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
csulli546,

I can see you're new here, so some advice. ATS is not your usual message board. So if you don't like showing respect for other posters, the message boards at IMDb.com may be more suited for you.

Good day.

[edit on 8-3-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo] [/quotI
I see you can dish it out but cannot take it in terms of insults. Are you actually at a loss for words? You failed to answer my question that pretty much summed up all we were debating about. Are you the kid who runs away when his friend gets beat up or are you a man who defends his friends when they need him most?



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:21 PM
link   
hey since china can get away with this why dont we do the same with cuba,and indonesia, i mean they were once our territory too, its only fair....



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by csulli456
I see you can dish it out but you cannot take it in terms of insults. So are you actually at a loss for words? You failed to answer my question. Are you the kid who runs away when his friend is getting beat up or are you a man who defends your friends when they need it most?


What? Where did I dish out insults? You're the only one dishing out the insults (besides, DrHoracid, who dishes it out by the hour).

Really, if you're going to be like that, then I don't get what you're doing on ATS. There are tons of other places that tolerate your kind of behavior. And no, I prefer to not answer the question of someone who can't help but throw insults.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by csulli456
I see you can dish it out but you cannot take it in terms of insults. So are you actually at a loss for words? You failed to answer my question. Are you the kid who runs away when his friend is getting beat up or are you a man who defends your friends when they need it most?


What? Where did I dish out insults? You're the only one dishing out the insults (besides, DrHoracid, who dishes it out by the hour).

Really, if you're going to be like that, then I don't get what you're doing on ATS. There are tons of other places that tolerate your kind of behavior. And no, I prefer to not answer the question of someone who can't help but throw insults.

Ok enough with the baby stuff here. I`m sorry about the whole big thong mess. But I take as an insult anytime someone tries to turn my words around and I also take insult to anyone blatantly insulting someone else especially when that person has served his (my) country well whether or not I may agree with that person. So I`ll ask you one more time; Are you the kid who runs away when his friend is getting beat up or are you a man who will defend his friends when they need him most?



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:40 PM
link   

Originally posted by csulli456
Ok enough with the baby stuff here. I`m sorry about the whole big thong mess. But I take as an insult anytime someone tries to turn my words around and I also take insult to anyone blatantly insulting someone else especially when that person has served his (my) country well whether or not I may agree with that person. So I`ll ask you one more time; Are you the kid who runs away when his friend is getting beat up or are you a man who will defend his friends when they need him most?


It was NOT an insult, it was called being provocative. In order to learn the truth, in order to learn anything, you gotta turn up the heat from time to time. I never blatantly insult anyone, I just like to dig very deep.

To answer your question, and I have done this many times, if a friend is being beat up, I will always back him up. However, if my friend told me not to interfere, I will respect his wishes, unless the guy he's fighting takes out a gun.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:57 PM
link   
I don't get it.
China just keeping its country as a whole and u know U.S government likes to use taiwan issue when they have problems with China. All the countries including us admit taiwan is part of china this is official! then why should we fight China if China wage a war to stop one of it's province from independence and this provence is recognised as part of china by U.S government and most countries in the world?

Afterall, taiwan itself is a historical problem after china's civil war during WWII........anyone spend enough time in history book should know U.S's paradox policy on taiwan issue.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:01 PM
link   

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

Originally posted by csulli456
Ok enough with the baby stuff here. I`m sorry about the whole big thong mess. But I take as an insult anytime someone tries to turn my words around and I also take insult to anyone blatantly insulting someone else especially when that person has served his (my) country well whether or not I may agree with that person. So I`ll ask you one more time; Are you the kid who runs away when his friend is getting beat up or are you a man who will defend his friends when they need him most?


It was NOT an insult, it was called being provocative. In order to learn the truth, in order to learn anything, you gotta turn up the heat from time to time. I never blatantly insult anyone, I just like to dig very deep.

To answer your question, and I have done this many times, if a friend is being beat up, I will always back him up. However, if my friend told me not to interfere, I will respect his wishes, unless the guy he's fighting takes out a gun.

Thank you for finally answering the question. That being said Tawain has asked for our help when we formed the alliance with them and Australia after WWII. It was a pact between 3 nations that we would defend one another. Furthermore if the Chinese invasion is iminent I`m sure that Tawain will formally ask us for assistance. Then in your own words we should help should we not? Also you said you would respect a friend`s wishes to not intervene unless the other guy pulled out a gun. If by pulling out a gun you mean then the other person is clearly overpowering your friend and you need to stop him then wouldn`t that same standard apply to Tawain? We are their friend and it sure as hell wouldn`t be a fair fight if China were to be their enemy in a fight, right? If it all goes down China will be pointing a whole lot of guns at our friend Tawain. Can you clearly state that you would be ok with us just standing by and letting it happen or are you now saying that if they ask for help we should?



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:12 PM
link   
Sometimes you gotta earn the right to have your question answered.


The thing is, I dunno. The friendship between two people is very different from the "friendship" between nations, which probably cannot be called a friendship at all. When it comes to international politics, it's all about economics and what side they present, nothing else. Should circumstances change, "friends" can easily become enemies. So it's kind of hard to relate the two

To give you a real answer, though, I wouldn't be against the U.S. responding to a Chinese invasion of Taiwan, simply because China is the 2nd most powerful country on Earth and it's survival of the fittest in the world. Also, the simplicity of the situation is rather "appealing." Win, or lose to the world's rising superpower. Unfortuntaely, besides the survival of Taiwan and the defeat of China, the U.S. really has nothing to gain from fighting China.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:26 PM
link   
drfunk, are the entire government and leadership of China democratically elected by the whole people of China? Do the people of China enjoys more freedoms than ever before? Are human rights improving in China? Is there an excellent free press going on around China? Am I just seeing something's wrong here about the current reality of China now?


Your country and Taiwan enjoy all the things and opportunities that China doesn't have. If China invades, subdue and annex Taiwan forcefully, the people of Taiwan would no longer enjoy the same benefits that your country have now. One less country with the opportunities of liberty and prosperity disappear in a blink of eye because you don't wanted to lift a finger to aid or worry about your buddies sending off to fight in a war to keep the Taiwanese people from becoming subservient to Red China.

Perhaps you have a racial bias against the people of Taiwan and secretly wish the demise of Taiwan?

Bear in mind, drfunk, China have a global agenda to be a hegemonic superpower of all Asia and your country is on its list of future subservience due to the economic relationship between China and Australia. If you believe that relationship is good, you're just deluding yourself. China seeks nothing but a complete leverage of your country's economy and resources in the long run.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
All I can say is, there is only so much in the world a person can control. We have to choose what we think is more important to protect. And don't love anything "good" (like freedom) too much. Everything has equal amounts of upsides and downsides. You have to keep an open mind.
[edit on 8-3-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]

(seriously) - What is the downside of freedom?



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1  2  3    5  6 >>

log in

join