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China quietly "threatens" Austrailia

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posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:43 AM
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China on Tuesday urged Australia to keep Taiwan out of its 50-year-old military alliance with the United States, but refused to confirm that it has asked Canberra to review the treaty.
"We believe these military alliances should not exceed the bilateral nature," foreign ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told a regular briefing.

Liu made it clear that the ANZUS alliance should not be used to interfere with China's plans to reunify with Taiwan, which Beijing has vowed to do by force if needed, and asked Canberra to consider China's interests.

"The Taiwan issue concerns China's sovereignty and territorial integrity and is the internal affairs of China," Liu said.

"Relevant countries in dealing with alliances should fully consider the benefits and concerns of other countries in the region, do more that is beneficial to the region's peace and stability," Liu said.

China considers Taiwan, which has been ruled separately since the end of a civil war in 1949, an inseparable part of Chinese territory which must be reunified eventually.

Liu, however, refused to confirm Australian media reports Tuesday that China has demanded Australia review the ANZUS (Australia-New Zealand-United States) Alliance.

The Australian newspaper quoted Beijing's director-general of North American and Oceanian Affairs He Yafei as saying Australia and the United States had to be careful not to invoke the ANZUS alliance against China.

"We all know Taiwan is part of China and we do not want to see in any way the Taiwan issue become one of the elements that will be taken up by bilateral military alliances, be it Australia-US or Japan-US," He was quoted as saying.

"If there were any move by Australia and the US in terms of that alliance that is detrimental to peace and stability in Asia then it (Australia) needs to be careful."

The ANZUS, drawn up at the end of World War II, is Australia's most important military treaty, under which each country is obliged to support the other in the event of an attack.

Australia would be expected under its terms to support the United States if China resorted to force over Taiwan."

www.spacewar.com...

Does anyone really read this as "urging" Austrailia to not help Taiwan when China attacks? Autralia should take this as a direct threat.....stay out or burn up..............


[edit on 8-3-2005 by DrHoracid]




posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 06:49 AM
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China is drawing alot of lines it seems , I only fear that the battles drills last year in the south asia sea doesnt mean that thaiwan and the us are going to end up fighting china. What was it now we had a full battle group down there for about a month ......then all the sudden China starts making threats towards everyone.

I think china has been given notice already that forces are committed to defending taiwan when the time comes, and china is trying to intimidate those who are committing this support.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:01 AM
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Originally posted by drbryankkruta
China is drawing alot of lines it seems , I only fear that the battles drills last year in the south asia sea doesnt mean that thaiwan and the us are going to end up fighting china. What was it now we had a full battle group down there for about a month ......then all the sudden China starts making threats towards everyone.

I think china has been given notice already that forces are committed to defending taiwan when the time comes, and china is trying to intimidate those who are committing this support.


Nice to see you 'converted" there ole buddy, nice avatar.

200,000,000 "men" marching up the dry bed of the euphrates coming soon to a plasma screen TV near you........



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:13 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
Nice to see you 'converted" there ole buddy


Converted?????



nice avatar.


Thanks Jak took some things I picked out and put it all together very nicely.



200,000,000 "men" marching up the dry bed of the euphrates coming soon to a plasma screen TV near you........



Yes sooner than most think , and its not going to be expected because everyone has this view that every thing in the world is the USA's fault and they are neglecting the abuse of smaller countries , by bigger ones just because of the publicity the USA has gotten.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by drbryankkruta
[Yes sooner than most think , and its not going to be expected because everyone has this view that every thing in the world is the USA's fault and they are neglecting the abuse of smaller countries , by bigger ones just because of the publicity the USA has gotten.




Very good point the doc........How about damascus being in the news lately.........its gona go soon too.

Conversion......."The Lord is a warrior" not a pacifist............Nice job...



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:29 AM
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The ANZUS treaty is a necessity to our defence and protection. A war with US and China (as the US will be the attacker here) won't necessarily invoke the ANZUS treaty, however we should do a careful review that it doesn't.

As an Australian I welcome He Yafei's words and we should make sure that the alliance treaty is fit enough for its role and doesn't drag Australia in an unwanted war.

"Mr Downer hinted at a policy shift on Taiwan in Beijing last year, when he suggested Australia might not have to go to Taiwan's aid under the terms of ANZUS because a flare-up might not constitute a direct attack on US interests."

So in the current terms of the ANZUS treaty, we may find our excuse. Without the doubt the US will want Australia's support in the fight against China but I sincerely hope we don't follow them into hell.


That said getting involved in a conflict with our second largest export partner (even beating the US) and neighbour China over Taiwan would be insanity.

Taiwan is an internal issue, it's a Chinese issue, it doesn't have anything to do with me and there's no way i'm going to support to send Australian troops to fight a nation that is around 70 times bigger than us and that has nuclear weapons.

Let the Americans fight their delusional battles for freedom and democracy right in China's backyard by themselves i say.

The issue between Taiwan and China involves the Chinese people only, let them deal with it and let us continue to live peaceful and prosperous lives.

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 8-3-2005 by drfunk]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:35 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
Does anyone really read this as "urging" Austrailia to not help Taiwan when China attacks? Autralia should take this as a direct threat.....stay out or burn up..............


I and many other Australians take it as common sense. Many Australians don't want a war with China and want to continue our great period of peace and prosperity. We have had the healthiest western economy (a goldilocks economy, not too hot, not too cold) in the world for quite some time and have had a 14 year boom. Life is good and not many of us want to be dragged into a battle with a world power that is around 70 times our size.

DrHoracid, your country can stand upto China, it's America and it can't back down because if it does it loses it's position as numero uno. Our country though is a neighbour of China's and we are totally independent of China and far outside of their sphere of influence.

China is no threat to Australia unless we make ourselves a threat, which is getting involved in their business. Let's not do that, lets keep trading and making friends with the Chinese so we both keep getting rich and happy.



thanks,
drfunk



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:35 AM
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Originally posted by drfunk

Let the Americans fight their delusional battles for freedom and democracy right in China's backyard by themselves i say.

The issue between Taiwan and China involves the Chinese people only, let them deal with it and let us continue to live peaceful and prosperous lives.

thanks,
drfunk

[edit on 8-3-2005 by drfunk]


Your right there funky. Iraq invading Kuwait was an Iraqi thing. Oh, yes Japan invading the entire pacific was a japanese thing, the US should have let them take over Austrailia, it's in their "backyard".........

Oh, yes, Hitler had a right to ake over Poland.

Lets not forget USSR and the Check's

Put the "fosters" down and think a bit..........



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by DrHoracid
Your right there funky. Iraq invading Kuwait was an Iraqi thing. Oh, yes Japan invading the entire pacific was a japanese thing, the US should have let them take over Austrailia, it's in their "backyard".........

Oh, yes, Hitler had a right to ake over Poland.

Lets not forget USSR and the Check's

Put the "fosters" down and think a bit..........


A typical neo-con trait is to look at foreign policy in 1939 terms. China isn't like any of those countries you speak of, it has no intention nor ambition to expand out of its borders for the far forseeable future. No navy in Asia has the naval capability to invade Australia, the only country that can do this is the USA.

What is not thinking straight is throwing away a chance for a peaceful world and a country at peace for something that is a Chinese issue. Taiwan is a rogue province, it is the last bastion of Chiang Kai Shek and his nationalists. Our government accepts the one-china policy and our government looks like it is moving towrds sitting this one out. USA has everything to lose if it backs down, Australia doesn't, we have more to gain if we sit this one out.

Australia is not a global power, we are a small country and we can't defend ourselves. The only strengths we have is our money and our mines. We have survived because we have always made friends with the top dogs, Britain, the USA and now China. This is how we ensure our survival.

China is a nuclear power, it's population is 70 times the size of ours. Taiwan is part of China, Taiwan are chinese people. It's a civil war. It's not our business.

I for one will not be supporting sending my mates to fight against China. I don't think my government will either.

thanks,
drfunk



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:56 AM
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In a way it is an internal China matter to a point, but like with Cheznia and Russia , once a country decides to suseed then it becomes a world issue , every country deserves a right to determine where it stands and in these two cases the people of the countries decided they didnt want to follow old doctrines.

The world as a whole has an obligation to keep those who wish to stand on their own get the chance.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:03 AM
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Ps Dr H my old avatar had the same slogan The Lord is a Warrior is only fitting to my avatars old and new , but thanks for mentioning the avatar anyway, I figured I would just make the text bigger and bolder.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:54 AM
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Let the Americans fight their delusional battles for freedom and democracy right in China's backyard by themselves i say.



The issue between Taiwan and China involves the Chinese people only, let them deal with it and let us continue to live peaceful and prosperous lives.

thanks,
drfunk


Really? So, let me get this straight..........

It's perfectly OK for Australians to sit by and not lift a finger to help those people who helped keep Australia from getting invaded by Japan during WWII? I mean, who was it that kept the Japanese Imperial Army from knocking on your door? It was the Americans and the nationalist Chinese, friend.

And our battles for freedom and democracy are delusional, eh? Well, if thats the way you really feel about it, I wish you folks would have spoken up about 65 years ago so we didn't have to loose tens of thousands of Americans remving the Japanese from the SW Pacific. After all, if freedom and democracy aren't worth fighting for, well, why should the Allies have wasted so much blood, time, and effort keeping you free?


Australia is not a global power, we are a small country and we can't defend ourselves. The only strengths we have is our money and our mines. We have survived because we have always made friends with the top dogs, Britain, the USA and now China. This is how we ensure our survival.


I can almost guarentee that you do not speak for all Australians on this subject, especially the 300K who died in WWII fighting alongside the other Allies in the face of tyranny and fascism.

When I think about the people of Taiwan and the constant state of threat they must live under, I am reminded of something Victor Hugo once said: "There is no such thing as a little country. The greatness of a people is no more determined by their numbers than the greatness of a man is by his height".

I see no reason why this rationale cannot apply to Australia as well. Americans support Taiwan because we know it would be morally wrong to allow a nation with a democratically elected government, excellent human rights, and a thriving free-market economy to fall into the hands of a godless communist juggernaut. Remember, the right thing is quite often the hardest thing to do............



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:19 AM
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You have voted Pyros for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

Excellent post Pyros!



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:26 AM
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Pyros,

So what are you gonna do about it? Sitting and whining and crying isn't going to "deliver democracy."

The way I see it, a country should be able to walk the walk ON IT'S OWN. Thus if the U.S. is gonna talk about "spreading democracy," then it must be prepared to do it on it's own. Without help from anybody else.


Americans support Taiwan because we know it would be morally wrong to allow a nation with a democratically elected government, excellent human rights, and a thriving free-market economy to fall into the hands of a godless communist juggernaut.


Americans support Taiwan because Taiwan is the only other bastion of resistance against China's potential threat to the U.S. Other than that, U.S. could care less about Taiwan. Get with reality.

BTW, World War II wasn't about democracy.


[edit on 8-3-2005 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:41 AM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Pyros,

So what are you gonna do about it? Sitting and whining and crying isn't going to "deliver democracy."

The way I see it, a country should be able to walk the walk ON IT'S OWN. Thus if the U.S. is gonna talk about "spreading democracy," then it must be prepared to do it on it's own. Without help from anybody else.

This is true, however it's always nice to have like-minded allies helping to share the load - especially when in doing so helps to protect both the security and soveriegnty of those like-minded allies.



Americans support Taiwan because Taiwan is the only other bastion of resistance against China's potential threat to the U.S. Other than that, U.S. could care less about Taiwan. Get with reality.

The US support for Taiwan stems from a long standing allegiance with the nationalist Chinese of WW2. The US did not abandoned nor forsake these allies when the communist revolution took place and forced them to the island of Taiwan. Support for Taiwan is first and foremost a longstanding loyalty and unwillingness to forsake an old ally, any strategic importance with Taiwan goes hand-in-hand with protecting Taiwan.
As for today, I don't see where the US and China are really adversaries except for the potential of conflict over Taiwan, so there is no real need to have a "bastion of resistance" against China if not for the issue of Taiwan.



BTW, World War II wasn't about democracy.

It was not about democracy, that is true - it was about imperial fascism vs soveriegn nations, some of which enjoyed self-determination...



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:22 AM
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Excellent posts Pyros and Intelgurl,

I agree with you both. I fell that we should not forget Taiwan in their strugle to stay independent of China.

-Reason



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:39 AM
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To kinda branch out this issue, where do you think the China-Taiwan situation ranks in terms of U.S. foreign policy/security? High or low?



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 11:56 AM
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BTW, World War II wasn't about democracy.


Yes, I know.

The Second World War was caused by:

a. Hitler’s Plans for World Domination

1. To unite German speaking people under the concept of the National Security Doctrine, which had been denied at the Treaty of Versailles.
2. Hitler wanted lebensraum (living space) in order to gain self-sufficiency (autarky).
3. Hitler wanted to dominate Europe and the World.

To achieve any of these aims involved breaking the Treaty of Versailles, which resulted in war.

b. The aggression of Hitler’s Allies

1. Italy – Mussolini wanted a Fascist-Roman empire in the Mediterranean and Africa. This plan was initiated with the Abyssinian invasion in 1935.
2. Japan – Japan wanted a Nipponese empire in the Pacific, extending into China and Australia. This plan was initiated with the Manchurian invasion in 1931.

c. The Axis powers were all inherrently hostile to Communism (USSR), and this also was a cause of the war.

d. Democratic powers were passive and/or isolationaist in nature.

1. USA – policy of isolationsim.
2. France – France was passive and reluctant to intervene against Germany, because France could not rely on Britain’s and America’s support.
3. Britain – Between 1934 and 1937, Britain was sympathetic to German recovery. Between May 1937 and March 1939, Britain appeased Germany.

These powers could have stopped Fascist aggression earlier than 1939.

e. The League of Nations failed to keep peace


War was caused by a combination of a-e, but Hitler’s aims and actions were the main cause of war. In a nutshell, WWII was caused by Fascist aggression and the failure of democratic powers to stop this aggression.


Today the democratic powers are faced with different forms of aggression. There are traditional forms we are familiar with, such as communism in China, and fascism in Iraq. But there are also new forms of world aggression, such as the expansion of radical Islamic groups determined to gain dominion over weaker peoples.

The point is that the democratic powers have a responsibility to ensure that, whenever possible, the perpetrator nations of aggression and tyranny must be contained, destabilized, and if necessary, eliminated.

In the last 100 years, we have paid too high a price in pain, blood and suffering to not have learned the lessons of the past. The cold, hard truth is that it is better to invest 1500 American lives now to ensure the stability of the mid-east, than to count the price of our freedom in the face of a nuclear-armed foe like Saddam Hussein in the future. The same can be said of Taiwan. We simply will not allow an oppresive, communist-controlled regime to conquer and subjugate a smaller, friendly nation whom we share so many values and links of common history.

I believe that eventually China will endure some sort of internal change (hopefully non-violent), and that a massive change will sweep the people of the Middle Kingdom. The forces of the free market economy coupled with the information age are too powerful for the old greybeards in Beijing. The western powers understand that these changes will come slowly, and we are willing to wait. After all, there is an ancient Chinese proverb that says "Be not afraid of growing slowly; be afraid only of standing still".

But in the meantime, it will be a cold day in Hell before we allow a group of communist thugs to pull another Prague Spring on a valued friend.




posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 12:03 PM
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ACK!

I forgot to add this other awesome and apropos quote from Thomas Jefferson:

"The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of tyrants...."




[edit on 8-3-2005 by Pyros]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 12:20 PM
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Pyros,

China is not on some Hitler-esque quest to dominate the world. It's grudge against Taiwan is simply that China believes that Taiwan belongs to China (which historically, it does). If California secceeded from America, we'd take the exact same approach China is taking against Taiwan. Oh yeah, China's not communist.

Also, using your logic of "pre-emptiveness," that means the prudent thing to do would be to pretty much conquer and "liberate" every country ni the world that is not just like America. Why? Because all nations have a high capacity to become hostile to America.

I was also confused as to where you got the idea that the terrorists are picking at the weak. I have yet to see a terrorist attack in Congo, Bangladesh, someplace truly weak. Are you saying that the terrorists attacked the U.S. because we are weak? And how doy ou exactly know what they are thinking?

Finally, I was bothered by something you said. You said "The cold, hard truth is that it is better to invest 1500 American lives now to ensure the stability of the mid-east..." Given that, why haven't you quit your job and become death #1501 in the cause you so believe in? You don't have to answer that, just think about it.




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