State Department releases detailed accounts of Biden-Ukraine corruption

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
a reply to: Gryphon66

Repeats? Do you have a link to the originals? This was just released, as shown on the date in the docs, on the 22nd....4 days ago.

Other than that, if you can't see what it is saying then there is no point in discussing with you.

I used the link above in the post I replied to.

If you don’t want to discuss the matter, that’s fine. Did you feel constrained to tell me you don’t want to talk to me for some reason in an open forum?

Okay, thanks and we’ll talk later.

Come on man, you are better than this. There are facts in the articles. Real facts, not alternative ones. Some have already been mentioned on page 1. Long ago, we would discuss those, but we don't seem to do that anymore.

Have you looked at every one of the documents included in the link I replied to?

I have. I have it open on my laptop. Is there something you’d like to discuss? I gave specific details in summary about what the linked PDF contains.

I’m here, let’s talk facts.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

Conservative Treehouse is an openly biased source.

Agreed -- but the document is what it is. Here's the link at scribd.

Giuliani and Graham are both open Trump allies.

And Biden and Schiff are both open Trump enemies... I don't trust any of them farther than I can throw 'em. It doesn't matter. Either they've got the evidence -- even better, proof -- for the claims they are making or they don't. Any and all of them. Rudy's making some big claims. Either he's bluffing or he's not.

Schiff, Biden, Trump, anyone and everyone should be demanding the truth of Rudy's claims. If they/we want the truth.

Can we at least agree again that Joe Biden did not make the decision to hold loan guarantees to Ukraine in 2015-2016? That decision was made by President Obama.

Yes, we can agree, if for no other reason than Obama had the power and authority to make the final decision, not Biden. But that doesn't mean that Biden wasn't part of that decision-making process, and it doesn't mean that Biden didn't benefit from that decision in corrupt and unscrupulous ways.

That decision was in alignment with over two years of expressed foreign policy by both the US and the EU.

That decision was also made during a time of countless accusations of corruption and criminal wrongdoing against many, by many, both in Ukraine and here and well everywhere. We have no reason to trust any of them. I'm prepared to accept that they were all corrupt as sin and just fighting each other for the biggest piece of the pie. That's the thing about thegreedy and power-hungry -- enough is never enough. They want it ALL.

What does any of the attached documents have to do with that?

That's exactly what we need to know, eh? I'm not happy about the drip-feed, but it's what we've got. Give us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and we'll figure it out.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Vasa Croe
a reply to: Gryphon66

Repeats? Do you have a link to the originals? This was just released, as shown on the date in the docs, on the 22nd....4 days ago.

Other than that, if you can't see what it is saying then there is no point in discussing with you.

I used the link above in the post I replied to.

If you don’t want to discuss the matter, that’s fine. Did you feel constrained to tell me you don’t want to talk to me for some reason in an open forum?

Okay, thanks and we’ll talk later.

Come on man, you are better than this. There are facts in the articles. Real facts, not alternative ones. Some have already been mentioned on page 1. Long ago, we would discuss those, but we don't seem to do that anymore.

Have you looked at every one of the documents included in the link I replied to?

I have. I have it open on my laptop. Is there something you’d like to discuss? I gave specific details in summary about what the linked PDF contains.

I’m here, let’s talk facts.

Your summary didn't really address the section of the PDF that covered the interview notes with Shokin and Lutsenko. You didn't mention Lutsenko at all.

Those pages are the most interesting to me and show enough detail to warrant a closer look by investigators. Granted, both could be lying or embelishing, but it would seem appropriate to dig further - with the help of the new Ukranian leadership.

What stood out to me was Yovanavich telling Lutsenko to leave the head of Burisma out of his invetigations. Rather odd. Why would she do that?
We now have the extremely odd situation of Yovanavich testifying aginst Trump because he wanted to investigate a series of troubling events in Ukraine that she is potentially involved in - or IS involved in if Lutsenko is to be believed.

a reply to: Boadicea

Thanks for the link to the letter. Nothing we’ve not seen before from Giuliani or his proxies. What do you see in the letter that is important?

You know what I think about politicians. I’ve been really clear about what I think about the impeachment; to reiterate, it doesn’t matter what Trump has done or didn’t do, the Speaker of the FN House said that the reason they are pursuing it is because the American people are too stupid to be trusted. Nothing they do after that has any standing whatever even if we had Trump on prime-time mowing down folks on Fifth Avenue with an Uzi. Pelosi should be removed.

Rudy’s sources are Shokin and Leshenko (?). Neither are particularly credible. But sure, heck, let’s investigate, the government isn’t doing anything else. (Which is arguably a good thing.)

The holding of the loan guarantees was one in a string of attempts on the part of the US and the EU to bring Ukraine close enough to the line so that the IMF would help them. It’s completely illogical to me that Obama and the EU would have done all that to cover for Joe Biden’s son. It’s just ... unreasonable. Perhaps it’s true.

Equating all countries, politicians and businesses as corrupt merely puts them all on the same playing field, but it certainly doesn’t privilege these claims by Giuliani and company over anything else in my mind.

I’ve only commented on what I’ve seen.

a reply to: UKTruth

And nothing ever happens, nothing happens at all
The needle returns to the start of the song
And we all sing along like before
And we'll all be lonely tonight and lonely tomorrow...

a reply to: Gryphon66

I think Shokin and Lutsenko are pretty good sources. They were (and are) directly involved as the leads of the Ukranian anti-corruption unit. They are both saying that they were stifled by the US authorities from looking into a case that inolved Burisma.

What motivation do you think the US State Dept had for blocking the Ukrainian anti-corruption unit from investigating one of their own companies?

Shokin believes he was fired on the orders of Biden - so, sure, his credibility is somewhat diminshed because of potential bias.
But what about Lutsenko? He was the person that replaced Shokin.
Both of them are sounding the alarm bells.

a reply to: Gryphon66

All you've said is at least fair enough... and much is more than fair. You hit the nail on the head.

What strikes me as significant about Giuliani's letter is that he claims there are three witnesses with firsthand knowledge, including a former U.S. attorney; that the Ukrainian witnesses (whistleblowers?) have been denied visas to present their evidence to U.S. authorities; and that the one refusing to grant visas to these witnesses is also a "witness" in the impeachment hearings, indicating a conflict of interest at the very least as well as possible perjury, and obstruction of justice (in spirit, if not in law).

If the above is true, then we have every reason not to trust this Star Chamber impeachment inquiry, and those in charge. We also have every reason to wonder what else they are hiding. If the above is not true, then we have every reason not to trust Giuliani in this matter or any matter.

It's easy enough to prove or disprove.

I don't automatically look at this as one side or the other is "good" or "right" here. I assume all sides are serving their own purposes, and giving us the "truth" they want. For my purposes, they're all guilty until proven innocent. But lucky for them, my opinion means nothing.

a reply to: UKTruth

Yeah, I didn’t talk about the photographs with Rick Perry either. Nor the embossed note proper from Trump Hotels.

I didn’t remember the correct spelling of Lutsenko’s name to be honest and I didn’t want to look it up.

Those notes are interesting. I assume those are being used in whatever investigation is currently proceeding.

IF Yovanovitch said that, sure it would be interesting. THat’s the problem with Ukrainians ... corruption upon corruption.

If Joe or Hunter aren’t dirty in this, they sure as hell were stupid to get involved with it. Particularly Joe.

a reply to: Boadicea

I have no idea whether the visas have been denied, I think it should be looked into and verified. I don't see how anyone can be against that actually.

a reply to: Boadicea

Yeah, what was it Jesus called it in the Bible “a nest of vipers”?

I guess it’s always been this way, but it sure seems worse in the last decade or so.

I’m gettin’ old, Bo.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I was born in the 70s, this is the worst I have ever seen it.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Boadicea

I have no idea whether the visas have been denied, I think it should be looked into and verified. I don't see how anyone can be against that actually.

Exactly. That's a mighty big claim on Rudy's part. If true, it's huge and speaks volumes to both motivation and tactics in the impeachment inquiry. As Gryph has already pointed out, Pelosi (and all the critters) have made their contempt for the voters pretty darn clear. The voters need to know if they are obstructing the ugly criminal truth about a former VP/current prez candidate while trying to impeach the current prez for demanding a proper investigation.

It is easy enough to prove or disprove. They just need to do it.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Gryphon66

I was born in the 70s, this is the worst I have ever seen it.

I was born just a few years ahead of you.

I thought it was bad during Clinton’s Presidency ... nope.

That was just the prelude.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

Yeah, what was it Jesus called it in the Bible “a nest of vipers”?

That about covers it.

I guess it’s always been this way, but it sure seems worse in the last decade or so.

I’m gettin’ old, Bo.

We both are. And the critters' crap is getting old.

But it seems we have reached a tipping point... for better AND worse

a reply to: Boadicea

Rudy’s claim in the letter is that the Ambassador to Ukraine is holding up the Visas.

If that’s true, why couldn’t his buddy Pompeo call and free that up? Or, god knows, POTUS Trump.

Why whine to Lindsey about it?

a reply to: Boadicea

Yep.

All that babbling I did two years ago about forces of Chaos bringing changes worldwide ... why did I have to get THAT crap right.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

Rudy’s claim in the letter is that the Ambassador to Ukraine is holding up the Visas.

If that’s true, why couldn’t his buddy Pompeo call and free that up? Or, god knows, POTUS Trump.

Why whine to Lindsey about it?

That's a good question. I don't know. But I'd like to know now!

My best guess is that Team Trump is laying the groundwork for some sort of gotcha for political purposes -- "leverage" donchaknow. And I don't like it one bit. Just like neither of us liked the biased source for Rudy's letter. But why is this letter not being reported by any mainstream media???

Where is the freaking investigative reporting? This letter is public knowledge. Why isn't anyone in media trying to nail down the facts? If not the specific facts, documents and records in this particular case, how about the general process for applying and receiving visas -- or NOT receiving visas. If they cannot tell us what did happen, they can at least tell us what should happen.

a reply to: Boadicea

I do wonder why there’s no reliable INDEPENDENT reporting.

I guess the facts don’t sell.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

I do wonder why there’s no reliable INDEPENDENT reporting.

I guess the facts don’t sell.

"Independent" -- YES! That's a much better way to say it.

Thank you!

a reply to: Gryphon66

Just to put the exclamation point in place... I did do a Google search of "news" sites looking for this story -- Giuliani letter to Lindsey Graham -- and got nothing. Not one hit. Literally.

The same search terms brought up lots of results in an "all" search, mostly blogs and partisan websites, but no major media.