The Universe Creating Itself From Nothing

originally posted by: S777S
So if no one can really say then we dont really know that the universe came from nothing.

The adage of the Universe coming from nothing is technically an idea that originated from religious scripture was it not?
Or at least that before the universe there was nothing?

Even the concept of "Big Bang" sort of implies that there was something there to go "bang".

The whole idea of of something from nothing though is as old as religion itself which relies heavily on analogy and symbolism I think and I'm led to wonder if maybe the term
Nothing is simply Nothing without its counterpart or all its pieces which are each nothing alone.

Therefore by bringing two "nothings" together you create something. Who knows though.

Which religion would that be because that is not the Abrahamic religion's certainly, we believe that in the Beginning was/is God, we do not try to understand were God came from or how God came into being but OUR beginning, that of our existence and God remains a mystery though there is nothing speculating on how or were God came into being except that we may not then state that our thoughts are reality only that they are thoughts such as to speculate that God may be the apex of evolution and development in a pre-existent reality and that he transcend's time, we therefore created in his image would be recreations of a less evolved form of God, this is not how it is just a thought on it that is probably so wildly wrong as to be daft, some would even consider such speculation as blasphemous since we regard God as not to be understood by anyone BUT God which for us is how it should be so I only posit a scenario were someone overdosed on science fiction novel's would perhaps come up with a fictional scenario to suite there view of reality.

But WHAT is reality, perhaps we are merely thought's of a mind so vast and complex that not only can it think us into being but every atom of our reality as well.

Once again that is mere speculation.

But our religion is not seeking answers to the past that is dead and gone rather we seek answers to the future, religion is about ascension or if you like Evolution of the being into a higher state in which imperfections are less or completely gone and true justice and empathy create a Utopian state of being, if taken in that frame of description is it really so different from what many atheists seek, You would really be surprised how many atheists are actually deists but do not know it though there are those that simply do not seek, that have reached a kind of moral and mental plateau from which they have no wish to further ascend and indeed by turning away from such ascension they actually descend becoming null being's even intent upon cancelling out other's quantum selves and trying to impose a belief in final death rather than the potential for quantum continuation into there psyche's, such being's are actually rather sick when looked at and more so in that they erroneously argue that they are realists without ever rationalizing that there reality would not exist except that they see and create it within there own mind's and so are at least in part responsible for.

Nothing is the matter with this thread.

a reply to: Archivalist
Subtle and actually quite humorous.

The theory still requires something to have existed at some point, so there was never really nothing.

Looking before the big bang or whatever creation event you subscribe to, there had to be a point where everything came from nothing which is not possible therefore everything must have always existed in one form or another, call that everything whatever you will.

a reply to: andy06shake

I understand that I was using the word "Nothing" to represent the idea of true emptiness as we currently understand it. I'm not one who believes there wasn't ever something, maybe it was antimatter just a bubbling tar like substance that was constantly popping and rolling sort of like sludge in a swamp for the sake of the OP it was meant to represent what we understand as of now to be nothing.

a reply to: Dwoodward85

Fair play mate.

Either way it nice to spitball the topic about.

I had to look it up yet again just to verify. The big bang theory according to wikipedia:

The model describes how the universe expanded from a very high-density and high-temperature state

Hmm, that is odd, it doesnt say anything about a universe forming from nothing.

Are you sure that you are talking about the correct theory?

There is no reason to assume there was ever actually NOTHING that existed. It's your typical false dilemma fallacy of God or nothing. There are dozens of other possibilities, for example eternal source materials for the universe. There is no requirement to explain a universe coming from nothing.

And yep, the big bang was an expansion of space-time and energy, not the creation of it.

a reply to: Hammaraxx

matter to be materialised.

Matter is already materialized


The only way we can justify something from nothing is to concede there are certain infinite products of reality that all things are eventually made up of and evolve into things or entities.



I appreciate your theories. My advice to you is that one has to live those theories and see their truth.

One has to go from theory to practice in some form in order to prove the truth of the theories. Then one merges with the theory or becomes it then one becomes the truth.

We can say that at one point nothing existed in the sense that nothing only means—NO THING

No entity, no human, no car, no god, no mouse, no solar system, no sun, no moon, etc.

But there were certain forces or rudimentary infinite elements that were in existence but they weren’t formed into any THING.

We evolved out of these infinite rudimentary elements into THINGS


That's the only way one can get something from nothing. Nothing only means NO THING


THING=entity, human, car, god, dog, mouse, solar system, sun, moon, etc

physics states matter can neither be created nor destroyed?
...in a closed system

Presumably, even though it's humongous, our universe ultimately is a closed system.

In other words, everything here has always been here and always will be here. Nothing is really created only made into a THING: a car, a house, a human, a god, a dog, a mouse, a sun, a moon, etc.

...from the infinite elemental strata of the universe

originally posted by: Dwoodward85
a reply to: Hammaraxx

But, and I hope I'm understanding you correctly, that would mean someone had a hand in putting the apple there in the first place for me to eat. So that would mean something/one put things into motion. I just don't buy the "it came from nothing" argument.

I was implying that the apple may have been put in the bowl after you found it there and already ate it.

The key to my OP is the Negatrines, the force carrying Omega into the past leading to creation.
Consciousness could have occurred anywhere between the beginning and the end.

Sort of like a "what came first, the chicken or the egg?", it doesn't matter.
Logically the egg came first and the chicken is a mutation of what ever laid the egg.

But if the chicken is an omnipresent omnipotent god, it could have laid it's own egg.

originally posted by: Archivalist
Nothing is the matter with this thread.

That's very clever.
Thank you.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
I had to look it up yet again just to verify. The big bang theory according to wikipedia:

The model describes how the universe expanded from a very high-density and high-temperature state

Hmm, that is odd, it doesnt say anything about a universe forming from nothing.

Are you sure that you are talking about the correct theory?

Thank you for asking.

This thread is a thought exercise I've been having since I saw a TV show where people were putting forward ideas/theories to answer a question a long the lines of "If everything began from a single point, where did that point come from?"

The Big Bang came after the creation of that single point.

All of the proposed ideas required something to exist prior to that single point and I thought it would be interesting to come up with an idea to explain it without a pre-existing anything.

I'm proposing that the single point that lead to the Big Bang came from the future, as a Negatrine travelling back in time broke through the single point into (no time, no space, no light, no anything - the nothing before anything existed) and just by being there ensured the rest happened on a forward timeline.

originally posted by: Barcs
There is no reason to assume there was ever actually NOTHING that existed. It's your typical false dilemma fallacy of God or nothing. There are dozens of other possibilities, for example eternal source materials for the universe. There is no requirement to explain a universe coming from nothing.

And yep, the big bang was an expansion of space-time and energy, not the creation of it.

I agree, there is no requirement to explain a universe coming from nothing.

It's about the fun you can have when you think about trying to answer "where did everything come from?".
If your answer says it came from something, then that something is also part of the 'everything' and you haven't answered the question.

I've just had fun trying out one idea all the "something" came from itself.

a reply to: PsychoEmperor

My opinion is that SOMETHING has always existed.

But why would something exist if nothing exists to observe it?

If something has always existed I would say it must be consciousness.

Further more, if we live inside a universe as our capture. And science
tells us that 17.9 billion yrs ago the universe just popped into existence.
Then when we speak of nothing being in existence previous to 17.9
billion yrs ago? We can only be speaking in terms of the universe. Not
what is or is not outside the universe. So what ever is outside the universe
can still exist even tho nothing was in existence. Because what ever
consciousness exists outside the universe also exists outside our
consciousness.

originally posted by: Willtell
We can say that at one point nothing existed in the sense that nothing only means—NO THING

No entity, no human, no car, no god, no mouse, no solar system, no sun, no moon, etc.

But there were certain forces or rudimentary infinite elements that were in existence but they weren’t formed into any THING.

We evolved out of these infinite rudimentary elements into THINGS

That's the only way one can get something from nothing. Nothing only means NO THING

THING=entity, human, car, god, dog, mouse, solar system, sun, moon, etc

I opened the OP with "Imagining absolutely nothing is apparently not an easy thing for most people to do, but for this exercise, it’s something I’d like you to try." From many of the responses so far, I see I was quite right, it isn't easy for people to do.

The exercise here requires being able to imagine the idea of absolutely nothing, not even rudimentary elements before something came into existence. Even if you consider rudimentary elements to be a "no thing" the question I'm offering a possible answer to is how did they even come into existence.

Put in more simple terms "Where did everything come from?". An answer cannot be "from rudimentary elements." as they are something and that as an answer generates another question which is really still the same question. "Where did the rudimentary elements come from?" etc.

Where did everything come from?
Perhaps some part of the everything found a way to go back in time and create itself?

originally posted by: Willtell
We can say that at one point nothing existed in the sense that nothing only means—NO THING

No entity, no human, no car, no god, no mouse, no solar system, no sun, no moon, etc.

But there were certain forces or rudimentary infinite elements that were in existence but they weren’t formed into any THING.

We evolved out of these infinite rudimentary elements into THINGS


That's the only way one can get something from nothing. Nothing only means NO THING


THING=entity, human, car, god, dog, mouse, solar system, sun, moon, etc

Why wouldn't what existed previous to all that be considered a thing? Are infinite rudimentary elements not things?

originally posted by: Hammaraxx

originally posted by: Barcs
There is no reason to assume there was ever actually NOTHING that existed. It's your typical false dilemma fallacy of God or nothing. There are dozens of other possibilities, for example eternal source materials for the universe. There is no requirement to explain a universe coming from nothing.

And yep, the big bang was an expansion of space-time and energy, not the creation of it.

I agree, there is no requirement to explain a universe coming from nothing.

It's about the fun you can have when you think about trying to answer "where did everything come from?".
If your answer says it came from something, then that something is also part of the 'everything' and you haven't answered the question.

I've just had fun trying out one idea all the "something" came from itself.

Yeah, I agree it's fun to speculate about. But if the universe came from something that is NOT itself, it opens up a whole new world of possibility. For example what membrane theory states. In that scenario, the universe did not come from nothing, but also did not come from itself. There's just more out there that we don't know / don't understand.

originally posted by: carsforkids
But why would something exist if nothing exists to observe it?

If something has always existed I would say it must be consciousness.

Because consciousness is not the be all end all, it evolved in the higher intelligent animals on earth after 500+ million years of brain evolution. The universe existed nearly 8 billion years before conscious life and will continue to exist long after humans are extinct.

Further more, if we live inside a universe as our capture. And science
tells us that 17.9 billion yrs ago the universe just popped into existence.

You really need to get out of the habit of posting blatantly wrong information due to your own ignorance. Most leading cosmologists who study the big bang and theoretical physics don't say the universe just popped into existence, they say a singularity expanded. Plus they say 13.8 billion years not 17.9. Stop spreading misinformation.