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So, as I stated, your position is just to let business do whatever it wants, and hope they don’t leave. Sorry, but that’s not a balance of power, it’s corporate tyranny, and is unsustainable.
originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: pexx421
Lower taxes don't compel businesses to do anything, but they do give them choice. Higher taxes completely remove that choice and are 100% detrimental because they 100% do produce all of the listed effects with zero net positives. If your stated desire is higher wages, you can't compel them without detriment to the economy; the places $15 min wage are learning that lesson now.
Mhm. And how many of those people wound up “elevated” prior to when it was illegal? They all good, middle class people now? You are blinded by ideology.
originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: pexx421
So because consumers aren't doing what you want them to, you want the government to force it to happen? Have you ever thought that maybe there are cogent reasons why the ibdividuals acting in a market choose to behave as they do even if it isn't as you would have them do?
For example, people decried the conditions of people living stacked up in roach and rat motel slum lord apartments because assumed these people all had no choice and they passed laws making it illegal for the good of tjose people, but a certain percentage of those people had made a calculated financial choice that allowed them to save money a eventually rise out of that condition thereby. Those laws eliminated that avenue of escape for that class of people making it harder to elevate themselves.
originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: pexx421
So because consumers aren't doing what you want them to, you want the government to force it to happen? Have you ever thought that maybe there are cogent reasons why the ibdividuals acting in a market choose to behave as they do even if it isn't as you would have them do?
For example, people decried the conditions of people living stacked up in roach and rat motel slum lord apartments because assumed these people all had no choice and they passed laws making it illegal for the good of tjose people, but a certain percentage of those people had made a calculated financial choice that allowed them to save money a eventually rise out of that condition thereby. Those laws eliminated that avenue of escape for that class of people making it harder to elevate themselves.
originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: ketsuko
Look. I’m sure there were probably some slaves who fought, escaped, and became freedmen and successful business owners. That doesn’t mean that it’s a good system because some people can succeed even under those conditions.
The judgment of a system is based off of quantifiable metrics that can be studied. And statistical perusal of the us shows a decline in opportunity, wealth, and circumstance over time for an increasing portion of the population.
originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: DBCowboy
At least with government we have a system of redress.
[/QUOTE]
originally posted by: pexx421
originally posted by: DBCowboy
originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: DBCowboy
So support for a limited, smaller government, more individual freedom and rights would be the antithesis for the oligarchs that you decry.
What you’re overlooking again is that making the government smaller like you want doesn’t lead to more freedom for the individual. It leads to more corporate interests buying the ability to dictate what freedoms we have.
Corporations can only sell.
If we "buy" what they're selling, then the onus is on us.
By supporting these political parties (Libertarianism, Republicans, etc) that claim to be working for small government all you’re doing is handing that power to a different group of corrupt people.
Supporting political parties is the problem. As long as all of us continue to put our faith in these groups that have already been bought and sold we’re just running on the hamster wheel. It looks like we’re going somewhere, but we never leave the cage.
The solution is to extract ourselves from the entire system that’s handed to us. Stop playing their game. Stop allowing their rules to dictate the direction our country goes. The power lies in us, not the choices the corrupt people give to us.
I've taken great pains to avoid using "party" labels.
Corruption exists within our government regardless of party affiliation.
Changing parties, changing systems without acknowledging and addressing the inherent corruption within won't change anything and will probably make things even worse.
Its not true that corporations can only sell. Corporations can buy legislation and manipulate govt. Oligarchs can sabotage competition, can forcefully manipulate wages, can create sweatshop banana republic style economies and slave labor, enforced with mercenaries or even govt aid. They did it here in the 1800's and early 1900's and they currently do it all over latin america, the middle east, africa, china, etc. Yes, those very same corporations that many of us work for here, and buy product from here, commit crimes against humanity, assassinations, child labor, slavery, sweat shop exploitation, all over the world today.
originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: underwerks
I’m going to keep this post in check because I lost a very good friend yesterday to just this kind of argument.
Have you actually read anything about the REAL Libertarian Party in the US? Somalia is not libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, that’s got to be one of the most IGNORANT comparisons I’ve ever heard, and it seems to be the only one that anti-Libertarians are capable of.
Here's a link to the current Libertarian Platform.
Because somehow I doubt you will bother, I’ll quote from the Preamble for anyone interested:
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others. We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.
Consequently, we defend each person’s right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power
originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: underwerks
If you did know anything about the Libertarian platform, you wouldn’t have parroted the stupid crap about SomaliaS.
So you’re the arbiter now of how faithfully someone enacts their political beliefs? Pfft.
If by conservatives you mean classic Republicans or Eisenhower Republicans, I might agree with you. All the “lofty ideals” are window dressing? Hoo Boy. Perhaps if the Democratic and Republican Parties hadn’t been granted a mandate in this country, we’d see what the application of alternate policies might accomplish.
What are you doing to make the world a better place, eh? You’re right in here with the righties throwing mud, bud.
You critique “small government” as a Libertarian principle, yet, it’s not found in the platform I linked, which of course, you didn’t bother to review because you already know everything, like Somalia is Libertarian.
Keep mouthing the catch-phrases Undie. You’re starting to sound like the ardent Trump supporters.
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: pexx421
... and you my friend seem unable to imagine that the world’s dynamics are more complex than a “class war.”
Very true in the 1840s, not true in the same way today. What we have in the United States is an EVER ENCROACHING GOVERNMENT that is traded off between two business partner Parties, so that it seems that there are two “sides.”
Income inequity would be solved in a year were all the governmental privileges for that elite you’re talking about removed. THAT IS WHAT MAINTAINS THE STRUGGLE!
Bread and circuses.
originally posted by: pexx421
You guys constantly decry the deep state and shadow govt. Who do you think they are? They are the very oligarchs, or those put into power by the oligarchs, that you show so much support for. And see, db, your statement illustrates a fine point of lies and fallacy. Nobody ever contends that we should make the rich poor. That’s not even a part of the discussion. The effects anyone describes would just make them less rich. Oh! The horrors!
originally posted by: butcherguy
originally posted by: ganjoa
Yo, DBC!
Here's a bit more on the intellectual dishonesty and giving the addict more Heroin:
The proposed solution to cure the addiction is simply to give the addict enough free dope for 'assisted' suicide?
Best way to kill a functioning government is to load it up with charlatans freeloaders and criminals.
Kinda sorta what's been going on for years before any of the current "mess" started.
My thinking is that the intellectual dishonesty begins with intent. I don't think anyone proposing more of the same government itervention and control is really interested in FIXING anything, but just pushing its' destruction harder and sooner.
ganjoa
I would look at it as we provide free Narcan to save the addict so that they can continue to use and be a nearly nonfunctional member of society. They function, but in a negative manner. They steal to support their habit.
That's our govt, continually eroding our freedoms, raising our taxes while plummeting us deeper into a debt pit..... and we keep letting them do it again and again.
originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: DBCowboy
The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money.
That's what it all really boils down to. How could our government not be corrupt when the public is corrupt? Every time one votes for "social services" or "welfare" of almost any kind they're participating in bribery and corruption. The representatives offering up the public's money to any constituency that is not every american, is guilty of bribery. They're promising to give away money that is not theirs to people in exchange for votes. Voters who want to "soak the rich" are participating in corruption. They seek to steal what is not theirs, using the power of government.
The disease extends to the people. Our government is made up of representatives that accurately represent their constituents in most cases. In the case of systemic corruption, it is enabled because the people who vote for their representatives are, themselves, corrupt. Our representatives are a mirror.
...there’s always the option of changing the system for us, the common people while reigning in the power those that run our society have over us.
But here's the thing. There is a growing number of people, despite the acceptance that government is corrupt, that want to increase the size, scope, power, authority of government.
This is what I mean by intellectual dishonesty.
Basically, they see a heroin addict and think that giving him MORE heroin will get him off heroin.
Now for those who might say, "Well government isn't corrupt", then why would you want to change it if it's working so well?
It's the same thing for raising taxes. You'd have to first prove that government is spending the money they already take from us wisely in order to justify government taking more, unless you actually WANT a corrupt government to take more.