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Government corruption and intellectual dishonesty

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posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:59 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: pexx421

... and you my friend seem unable to imagine that the world’s dynamics are more complex than a “class war.”

Very true in the 1840s, not true in the same way today. What we have in the United States is an EVER ENCROACHING GOVERNMENT that is traded off between two business partner Parties, so that it seems that there are two “sides.”

Income inequity would be solved in a year were all the governmental privileges for that elite you’re talking about removed. THAT IS WHAT MAINTAINS THE STRUGGLE!

Bread and circuses.


No gryphon, it’s not more complex than a class war. The class war is plenty complex and sophisticated. And what you call ever encroaching govt I call a govt subverted by oligarchs. You see the government as the top of the pyramid. I see them as a tool used by oligarchs to cement their power and victory over the masses.




posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:00 AM
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a reply to: pexx421


And you all here absolutely refuse to recognize there’s even a class war going on. And that’s the main problem. It’s been largely whitewashed, erased from the narrative, and ridiculed quite effectively to where what we may call a class war is really just the war of the oligarchs upon everyone else. Because the side of labor isn’t even fighting back. Like most of you here, the side of labor largely just helps the oligarchs wage the war against your own interests and your peers. You defend the oligarchs at every turn, and hope to tear down the very instruments that were created to protect us from corporate tyranny. Wonder where the ideas for that behavior pattern originated from.


I'm pretty sure that's been going on for as long as humans have existed.

As for the instruments that you claim were created to protect us from corporate tyranny, how well is that working? Wages have remained stagnant for decades as more and more corporations continue to outsource and send their jobs overseas.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:00 AM
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a reply to: pexx421

So support for a limited, smaller government, more individual freedom and rights would be the antithesis for the oligarchs that you decry.

Supporting a larger, more authoritarian government would be providing more control and authority to these same oligarchs.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: underwerks


It’s a fallacy to believe that every, single person is corrupt. If you believe that every person is corrupt beyond redemption I can see why you think the way you do. But that isn’t the case.


While your first statement may be true, it only takes one bad apple to ruin it for everyone else. I've seen it happen time and time again in the corporate world I've worked in for almost 35 years. Lots of businesses have failed due to just a few corrupt people that ruined it for entire organizations.


edit on 24-11-2019 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: pexx421

Very interesting. So one of the constant variables is the greedy and corrupt nature of humans. Regardless of the current system or 'ism', corrupt humans are able to milk it for their own personal gains and support their fellow oligarchs.

So we can't change the system or maybe the system doesn't really matter. Or maybe the current systems we have are the problem, both capitalism and socialism in their current forms because both allow the our rulers or the oligarchs to extract wealth off of us sheep with ease.

So we don't worry about the people because they are always a constant.

So is the only way forward creating a new system that restricts capital and asset accumulation? Or maybe it is simple wealth mobility that causes the majority of the issues. If wealth were contained to where it was created/extracted, maybe that would be enough of a control. Something is needed to restrict the concentration or mobility of wealth, which just boils down to power and control in the hands of us ethical humans.

I still don't us much hope in creating a new system of equality and sanity. I think the only way forward is going galt. Have you seen some of the new eco communities that are starting to develop in eastern Europe? That is going galt. Starving the beast.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:06 AM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

Name me one law that congress has passed that further limited their power and authority.

Just one.


I can’t think of any. We’re dealing with entrenched, corrupt people. And the reason they’re so entrenched and corrupt is because they’ve weakened government to the point where they can serve corporate interests instead of the interests they’re elected to serve, the peoples.

If we want congress to change, we have to force them to. There’s no other way. Public outcry and making their lives uncomfortable goes a long way. Make it so they can’t be seen in public without confronting an angry mob. Make it so they can’t have one moment of peace from the second they leave their house. Go fight club on their food every time they eat in restaurants. Be the first thing they see when they wake up and the last thing they hear before they go to sleep. Make them remember who really runs this country and pays them to be as corrupt as they are.

Or, white phosphorous everything from Virginia to Maryland.

Your choice.




posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:07 AM
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a reply to: underwerks


It’s the people. People will always be greedy and corrupt. You can always count on that. So there needs to be some kind of system to hold that in check.

We have a "system to hold that in check".

the people can not be all, & always, well informed. the part which is wrong [. . .] will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. if they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. we have had 13 states independent 11 years. there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure.

At present, our society falls under "lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty". Personally, I don't think we will ever make it to the rebellion part because we're too far gone, but the system is in place. It's the reason we have a second amendment, and the right to a redress of grievances.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:09 AM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: pexx421

So support for a limited, smaller government, more individual freedom and rights would be the antithesis for the oligarchs that you decry.

Supporting a larger, more authoritarian government would be providing more control and authority to these same oligarchs.


I’d say where we disagree is what makes a smaller, limited govt. for me, that’s drastically reining in the police, removing the costs for licensing and regulations that people require to work, drive, have a business, etc. Massively defunding psyops, pr, analytics. Nationalizing media and reinstating the fairness doctrine. Removing all subsidies and loopholes and simplifying the irs. Massively defunding the military. Nationalizing the banking system. Banning money in politics and persecuting corruption. Completely revamping the legal system to get rid of mandatory minimums and the plea deal program.


For you I expect it means removing social programs, keeping school and healthcare private, deregulating businesses, privatizing everything, etc.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:11 AM
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originally posted by: underwerks

Or, white phosphorous everything from Virginia to Maryland.

Your choice.



I'd call that a good start.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:14 AM
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originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: underwerks


It’s the people. People will always be greedy and corrupt. You can always count on that. So there needs to be some kind of system to hold that in check.

We have a "system to hold that in check".

the people can not be all, & always, well informed. the part which is wrong [. . .] will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. if they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. we have had 13 states independent 11 years. there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure.

At present, our society falls under "lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty". Personally, I don't think we will ever make it to the rebellion part because we're too far gone, but the system is in place. It's the reason we have a second amendment, and the right to a redress of grievances.


My thing is, the system has been changed and perverted from what it was originally intended to be. George Washington warned of the dangers of political parties in his farewell address, and look where we are. Stuck right in the muck he warned everyone of.

Our system has been changed. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be changed back to something closer to what was originally intended. That’s the one saving grace of American democracy, it can be changed. So as not to require a bloody revolution like the one the people who founded this country had to go through.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:15 AM
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Also, I don’t think human nature is corrupt and greedy. Human nature is dynamic, constantly changing, and largely a product of environment and circumstance. I think the nature of the wealthy and powerful is largely corrupt and greedy. So the solution would be limits to the power and wealth that any one person or group can have. This can easily be influenced by term limits, and massive crackdowns on pacs, bribes, and money in politics, as well as a far broader election program of free airtime for candidates, better systems for open forums, and a massive reduction/destruction of a large portion of our intel agencies, as well as complete openness and transparency between them and our representative structures. For a start.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:16 AM
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Oh, and misinformation disemenated to the public, be it by media or govt, should be a capital crime.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:18 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

21st Amendment. Then they later used it as sledgehammer for drinking age by forcing states to adapt different laws like 21 and up for beer and DUI laws. So a wash at best.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:22 AM
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a reply to: Ahabstar

It's sad that you'd have to go back almost 90 years to find what basically is a wash concerning government limiting itself.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:25 AM
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Govern = Control
Ment = Mind

All Governments are corrupt by their very nature to begin with since nobody has a right to rule over another. When you look at the break down of the word in it's roots it literally means mind control. This is apparent when you see CULT-ures behave different depending on their brand of mind control. China and NK have it perfected.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

I'm beginning to think everyone in government is on heroin!
And if that's the case give em all they want.

Hey! Maybe that's why Afghanistan?


edit on 24-11-2019 by carsforkids because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:32 AM
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a reply to: pexx421

Stars for all of your good ideas (minus the part about nationalizing the banking system) even though I believe that reality will dictate that politicians will never vote for any of it or agree on it enough to make anything materialize.


edit on 24-11-2019 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:33 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy


So support for a limited, smaller government, more individual freedom and rights would be the antithesis for the oligarchs that you decry.


What you’re overlooking again is that making the government smaller like you want doesn’t lead to more freedom for the individual. It leads to more corporate interests buying the ability to dictate what freedoms we have.

By supporting these political parties (Libertarianism, Republicans, etc) that claim to be working for small government all you’re doing is handing that power to a different group of corrupt people.

Supporting political parties is the problem. As long as all of us continue to put our faith in these groups that have already been bought and sold we’re just running on the hamster wheel. It looks like we’re going somewhere, but we never leave the cage.

The solution is to extract ourselves from the entire system that’s handed to us. Stop playing their game. Stop allowing their rules to dictate the direction our country goes. The power lies in us, not the choices the corrupt people give to us.
edit on 24-11-2019 by underwerks because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:34 AM
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originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: DBCowboy

Because you refuse to see the scope of the whole problem. When you take power away from the government it doesn’t just vanish and the government has less power. That “power” is taken up by corporations and the richest Americans, who are even less accountable than the government.

Indeed, businesses do better with less regulations and less taxes, meaning private citizens become more powerful. The part where you're wrong is seeing that as a bad thing, because as evidenced by the U.S. economy under Trump, less regulations and less taxes actually help it thrive, and that benefits everyone in the private sector. Hating rich people is like hating the idea of success or the chance at success, it's a selfish view of the world. Instead of realizing that more rich people means more people are succeeding and there's a higher chance you'll also get rich, it's perceived as a bad thing by those who are not rich because they don't believe they'll ever be rich, so the only option they see is to force wealth redistribution.


originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
What taxes really do is take spending power from individuals and businesses and give it to the government. Excessive socialism always leads to a nanny state and it truly boggles my mind that so many people believe such a huge bloated government could spend money more effectively than the private sector. It really doesn't take much analysis to understand why over-taxing and over-regulating an economy can harm it and destroy a nation in the long run.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 10:35 AM
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Localization is an answer over centralization. The asshats running places like Chicago and San Fran into the ground are at least only hurting those places and not all of us. Those are local issues and disasters.

Venezuela with its central control system is a state level disaster.

Peaople in Chicago and San Fran can have some hope of moving to another state at least. Venezuelans are screwed if they can't immigrate out.




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