Government corruption and intellectual dishonesty

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

The Constitution, our government foundation, was specifically written to limit the size, scope, power and authority of government.

If corporations are your fear, then blame the government for writing the laws that enable the corporations that circumvent the Constitution.

What is it that makes the government corrupt? What is it that makes them write those laws that enable corporations to circumvent the constitution? Was it what the founders wrote, was it how they designed our government, or is the flaw of government the people who run it?

It’s the people. People will always be greedy and corrupt. You can always count on that. So there needs to be some kind of system to hold that in check. What we have isn’t perfect, no doubt. But we can always change it. That’s what makes it better than the alternative.

If we can agree that people will always be greedy and corrupt, then why would you ever support a candidate or system that cedes more power, control, authority to the corrupt system?

This is what I mean about intellectual dishonesty.

Because the government isn’t a person. it’s a system, designed by people. And as such can be designed to work any way we want. That includes holding in check the worst of us. I think that was the whole point until corrupt people whored it out by taking power away from it and handing it over to corporations.

It’s not having a system that’s the problem, it’s the people. And if the people can’t be fixed we have to change the system.

That makes no sense.

If we have corrupt people in our capitalist system and change the system to a socialist system, then we'll have corrupt people in our socialist system.

Changing the system will not change the corruption within.

You’re right, which is why we don’t change to a socialist system. You seem to be locked in this dichotomy of everything being either capitalist or socialist. That’s not how things are. The best system would be one with elements of both, reigning in government and big corporations power over us while giving power and freedom to us, the people.

Or, we can go your way and just say screw it and give up. And just make peace with being raped by either corporations or the government.

a reply to: underwerks

Changing the system will not change the corruption within.

Putting a Lexus body over the motor of a Chevy Vega will NOT make the car a Lexus!

a reply to: underwerks

Recognizing the problem isn't acceptance of the problem.

We still have people who fail to recognize that we even HAVE a problem!

a reply to: underwerks

If you did know anything about the Libertarian platform, you wouldn’t have parroted the stupid crap about SomaliaS.

So you’re the arbiter now of how faithfully someone enacts their political beliefs? Pfft.

If by conservatives you mean classic Republicans or Eisenhower Republicans, I might agree with you. All the “lofty ideals” are window dressing? Hoo Boy. Perhaps if the Democratic and Republican Parties hadn’t been granted a mandate in this country, we’d see what the application of alternate policies might accomplish.

What are you doing to make the world a better place, eh? You’re right in here with the righties throwing mud, bud.

You critique “small government” as a Libertarian principle, yet, it’s not found in the platform I linked, which of course, you didn’t bother to review because you already know everything, like Somalia is Libertarian.

Keep mouthing the catch-phrases Undie. You’re starting to sound like the ardent Trump supporters.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I just want you to know I agree with a lot of libertarian ideals concerning the freedoms we should have as individuals. But the thing is, the current libertarian party is being used as a tool by the worst of the right wing dark money people. The Koch Brothers, Peter Thiel, etc.

It’s being used as a way to control a different subset of the same people by the same big money donors who ruined modern conservatism. It’s a sham. And everyone that carries their party line is being used by the same people. Knowingly or not.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

Changing the system will not change the corruption within.

Putting a Lexus body over the motor of a Chevy Vega will NOT make the car a Lexus!

That’s not a 1:1 analogy. Changing the system will change the corruption within if we change the system to make that corruption obsolete.

What’s your solution?

a reply to: underwerks

?

How do you make corruption obsolete?

How is giving more power, authority, control to corrupt people going to make corrupt people not-corrupt?

a reply to: DBCowboy

But a Vega, still running with relatively low miles and a solid body will go for more than a ten year old Lexus, because it is 40+ years old. Which makes it pretty rare. A Ford Elite in great shape might still go for original sticker price though. Which if you think about is pretty amazing in itself since that was a total crap car.

As far as the spurious claim that Libertarians favor “small government” that would empower corporations, let’s review:

2.8 Marketplace Freedom

Libertarians support free markets. We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of entities based on voluntary association. We oppose all forms of government subsidies and bailouts to business, labor, or any other special interest. Government should not compete with private enterprise.

As underworks points out. The problem isn’t govt. There are governments all over the world. Some do good, some do bad. Some do good and bad. But the whole worlds problems, all the issues stem from the war between labor and owners/wealth elite. In the us we’ve largely outsourced the main cons of this war, to give false legitimacy. It’s been “look, we treat our workers well here!” As we’ve offshores the assassinations, coups, sweat shop and slave labor, pollution and exploitation to the third world. But largely we are bringing those things back home now.

This is the condition and the issues we face today. Labor uses marches and protests and democratic processes to fight for their power. The wealthy elite use assassins, coups, espionage and sabotage, and when all else fails, murder, rape, and torture to pursue their goals.

And you all here absolutely refuse to recognize there’s even a class war going on. And that’s the main problem. It’s been largely whitewashed, erased from the narrative, and ridiculed quite effectively to where what we may call a class war is really just the war of the oligarchs upon everyone else. Because the side of labor isn’t even fighting back. Like most of you here, the side of labor largely just helps the oligarchs wage the war against your own interests and your peers. You defend the oligarchs at every turn, and hope to tear down the very instruments that were created to protect us from corporate tyranny. Wonder where the ideas for that behavior pattern originated from.

originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: DBCowboy

But a Vega, still running with relatively low miles and a solid body will go for more than a ten year old Lexus, because it is 40+ years old. Which makes it pretty rare. A Ford Elite in great shape might still go for original sticker price though. Which if you think about is pretty amazing in itself since that was a total crap car.

A Vega will always have low miles because it was always in the shop or up on blocks.

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: Gryphon66

I just want you to know I agree with a lot of libertarian ideals concerning the freedoms we should have as individuals. But the thing is, the current libertarian party is being used as a tool by the worst of the right wing dark money people. The Koch Brothers, Peter Thiel, etc.

It’s being used as a way to control a different subset of the same people by the same big money donors who ruined modern conservatism. It’s a sham. And everyone that carries their party line is being used by the same people. Knowingly or not.

I’m glad you identify with some of the LP goals. I do not agree with all of them. No one should adopt any set Or system of arbitrary statements as uncompromising truth.

Perhaps the LP is as corrupt as you say, but really, what would be teh point of that? All parties not Republican or Democrat are for all intents and purposes excluded from the national arena.

And I’m very hopeful you aren’t claiming that the Democratic Party is not funded by as much “dark money” as anyone, right?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

?

How do you make corruption obsolete?

How is giving more power, authority, control to corrupt people going to make corrupt people not-corrupt?

It’s a fallacy to believe that every, single person is corrupt. If you believe that every person is corrupt beyond redemption I can see why you think the way you do. But that isn’t the case.

You make corruption obsolete by taking away the chance and the advantages of being corrupt. Which is what I’m talking about. And that can only be done through a system of laws.

Things like banning corporate lobbying, strict laws against politicians taking money from anyone, any time, for any purpose. Allowing zero conflicts of interest. Strict laws that force politicians to make their entire life an open book to the people who they want to represent. No wiggle room on anything. Either you completely abide by openness and no secrets or you aren’t qualified to hold your position. Just as a start.

Things like that. And yes that would disqualify a ton of people from holding public office. That’s the point. Not holding enforceable standards like those is what allows the corrupt people you talk about to fill our government.

a reply to: pexx421

... and you my friend seem unable to imagine that the world’s dynamics are more complex than a “class war.”

Very true in the 1840s, not true in the same way today. What we have in the United States is an EVER ENCROACHING GOVERNMENT that is traded off between two business partner Parties, so that it seems that there are two “sides.”

Income inequity would be solved in a year were all the governmental privileges for that elite you’re talking about removed. THAT IS WHAT MAINTAINS THE STRUGGLE!

Bread and circuses.

a reply to: pexx421

"Class warfare" is a way to simply change the names on bank accounts of those with money.

You can't make poor people rich by making rich people poor.

a reply to: underwerks

Name me one law that congress has passed that further limited their power and authority.

Just one.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: Gryphon66

I just want you to know I agree with a lot of libertarian ideals concerning the freedoms we should have as individuals. But the thing is, the current libertarian party is being used as a tool by the worst of the right wing dark money people. The Koch Brothers, Peter Thiel, etc.

It’s being used as a way to control a different subset of the same people by the same big money donors who ruined modern conservatism. It’s a sham. And everyone that carries their party line is being used by the same people. Knowingly or not.

I’m glad you identify with some of the LP goals. I do not agree with all of them. As no one should adopt any set of arbitrary statements as uncompromising truth.

Perhaps the LP is as corrupt as you say, but really, what would be teh point of that? All parties not Republcian or Democrat are for all intents and purposes excluded from the national arena.

And I’m very hopeful you aren’t claiming that the Democratic Party is not funded by as much “dark money” as anyone, right?

There isn’t a political party on the face of this earth I identify or agree with. Political parties are the problem, the elephant in the room. I think we should abolish all political parties and vote on single candidates only.

It doesn’t matter if political parties other than Democrats or Republicans are excluded from the national arena, they’re still useful tools for the people who who control the Democrats and Republicans. Just take a look at the people who fund all the other parties to get a sense of how they’re being used and by whom.

You guys constantly decry the deep state and shadow govt. Who do you think they are? They are the very oligarchs, or those put into power by the oligarchs, that you show so much support for. And see, db, your statement illustrates a fine point of lies and fallacy. Nobody ever contends that we should make the rich poor. That’s not even a part of the discussion. The effects anyone describes would just make them less rich. Oh! The horrors!

a reply to: underwerks

Corrupt people create a corrupt system and/or corrupt the system. You will never make a system impervious to the people. The best you can manage is one where the corrupt have as little power over others as possible and an all-powerful system run by the corrupt is the opposite of that.

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: Gryphon66

I just want you to know I agree with a lot of libertarian ideals concerning the freedoms we should have as individuals. But the thing is, the current libertarian party is being used as a tool by the worst of the right wing dark money people. The Koch Brothers, Peter Thiel, etc.

It’s being used as a way to control a different subset of the same people by the same big money donors who ruined modern conservatism. It’s a sham. And everyone that carries their party line is being used by the same people. Knowingly or not.

I’m glad you identify with some of the LP goals. I do not agree with all of them. As no one should adopt any set of arbitrary statements as uncompromising truth.

Perhaps the LP is as corrupt as you say, but really, what would be teh point of that? All parties not Republcian or Democrat are for all intents and purposes excluded from the national arena.

And I’m very hopeful you aren’t claiming that the Democratic Party is not funded by as much “dark money” as anyone, right?

There isn’t a political party on the face of this earth I identify or agree with. Political parties are the problem, the elephant in the room. I think we should abolish all political parties and vote on single candidates only.

It doesn’t matter if political parties other than Democrats or Republicans are excluded from the national arena, they’re still useful tools for the people who who control the Democrats and Republicans. Just take a look at the people who fund all the other parties to get a sense of how they’re being used and by whom.

Yeah, but then there’s that whole problematic First Amendment thing, that allows people to associate and work cooperatively together according to their own goals.

We don’t need to get rid of parties as much as we need to take away their mandate, and recognize that neither “side” is the good guys.