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Government corruption and intellectual dishonesty

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posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:11 AM
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Government is corrupt. Our government, the US government is corrupt.

If you like Trump, you see the Deep State and all the corruption within. You see the onerous corruption, the "shadow state" as they try to undermine Trumps foreign and domestic policies.

You see the government as corrupt.

If you dislike Trump, you see the corruption in the "collusion" between the Trump administration and Ukraine, Russia. You see the bias of the Senate, the "resistance" of House republicans.

You see the government as corrupt.

If you are indifferent to Trump, you see the never-ending "talk" about the endless wars on terror, drugs, homelessness and see the same people making the same promises year after year to fix problems they (in Washington) created in the fist place.

You see the government as corrupt.





But here's the thing. There is a growing number of people, despite the acceptance that government is corrupt, that want to increase the size, scope, power, authority of government.

This is what I mean by intellectual dishonesty.

Basically, they see a heroin addict and think that giving him MORE heroin will get him off heroin.

They think that treating an alcoholic with bourbon will get the alcoholic off booze.


How can you agree that government is corrupt on one hand, and on the other, want to give this corrupt entity more power?



Now for those who might say, "Well government isn't corrupt", then why would you want to change it if it's working so well?

It's the same thing for raising taxes. You'd have to first prove that government is spending the money they already take from us wisely in order to justify government taking more, unless you actually WANT a corrupt government to take more.

It doesn't make much sense.




posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:23 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

Cats and dogs, living together

Mass hysteria!



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:24 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

S&F.

I don’t want to offend you, but I’m agreeing with your posts a lot lately.

This one put me in mind of President Eisenhower, here’s how he opened his First Inaugural Address:




My friends, before I begin the expression of those thoughts that I deem appropriate to this moment, would you permit me the privilege of uttering a little private prayer of my own. And I ask that you bow your heads:

Almighty God, as we stand here at this moment my future associates in the Executive branch of Government join me in beseeching that Thou will make full and complete our dedication to the service of the people in this throng, and their fellow citizens everywhere. Give us, we pray, the power to discern clearly right from wrong, and allow all our words and actions to be governed thereby, and by the laws of this land. Especially we pray that our concern shall be for all the people regardless of station, race or calling.

May cooperation be permitted and be the mutual aim of those who, under the concepts of our Constitution, hold to differing political faiths; so that all may work for the good of our beloved country and Thy glory. Amen


Source



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:24 AM
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Yo, DBC!
Here's a bit more on the intellectual dishonesty and giving the addict more Heroin:
The proposed solution to cure the addiction is simply to give the addict enough free dope for 'assisted' suicide?

Best way to kill a functioning government is to load it up with charlatans freeloaders and criminals.
Kinda sorta what's been going on for years before any of the current "mess" started.

My thinking is that the intellectual dishonesty begins with intent. I don't think anyone proposing more of the same government itervention and control is really interested in FIXING anything, but just pushing its' destruction harder and sooner.

ganjoa



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:25 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy


How can you agree that government is corrupt on one hand, and on the other, want to give this corrupt entity more power?


Because you refuse to see the scope of the whole problem. When you take power away from the government it doesn’t just vanish and the government has less power. That “power” is taken up by corporations and the richest Americans, who are even less accountable than the government.

This is the fatal flaw in your argument. If by taking power from the government it led to the government having less power, I’d be in your corner. Instead all it does is hand it to the American oligarchs. Which is an even worse idea. At least with government we have a system of redress.


Basically, they see a heroin addict and think that giving him MORE heroin will get him off heroin. They think that treating an alcoholic with bourbon will get the alcoholic off booze.


Great analogy. Because you don’t make an alcoholic go cold turkey, that could kill them. You help them change. Just like we should be trying to change our government for the better instead of killing it.


+13 more 
posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:30 AM
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a reply to: underwerks

The Constitution, our government foundation, was specifically written to limit the size, scope, power and authority of government.

If corporations are your fear, then blame the government for writing the laws that enable the corporations that circumvent the Constitution.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:35 AM
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originally posted by: ganjoa
Yo, DBC!
Here's a bit more on the intellectual dishonesty and giving the addict more Heroin:
The proposed solution to cure the addiction is simply to give the addict enough free dope for 'assisted' suicide?

Best way to kill a functioning government is to load it up with charlatans freeloaders and criminals.
Kinda sorta what's been going on for years before any of the current "mess" started.

My thinking is that the intellectual dishonesty begins with intent. I don't think anyone proposing more of the same government itervention and control is really interested in FIXING anything, but just pushing its' destruction harder and sooner.

ganjoa


I would look at it as we provide free Narcan to save the addict so that they can continue to use and be a nearly nonfunctional member of society. They function, but in a negative manner. They steal to support their habit.
That's our govt, continually eroding our freedoms, raising our taxes while plummeting us deeper into a debt pit..... and we keep letting them do it again and again.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:46 AM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

The Constitution, our government foundation, was specifically written to limit the size, scope, power and authority of government.

If corporations are your fear, then blame the government for writing the laws that enable the corporations that circumvent the Constitution.


What is it that makes the government corrupt? What is it that makes them write those laws that enable corporations to circumvent the constitution? Was it what the founders wrote, was it how they designed our government, or is the flaw of government the people who run it?

It’s the people. People will always be greedy and corrupt. You can always count on that. So there needs to be some kind of system to hold that in check. What we have isn’t perfect, no doubt. But we can always change it. That’s what makes it better than the alternative.

If you want to live in a libertarian paradise where government is completely out of the picture you can always move to Somalia. Humans are far from perfect, and we need some kind of system to hold the worst of us in check. Especially when it comes to our leaders.

This is my main problem with libertarian thinking. Yes, I have a lot of libertarian ideals when it comes to how people should be treated by the government, but those same freedoms shouldn’t extend to the government in general. Because giving the government that same freedom will be disastrous to us, the common citizens.

We need a system where the people have close to unlimited freedom and the government is held in check by strict laws and regulations. I don’t think an ideology like that exists yet, but that’s where we should be headed.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:53 AM
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a reply to: underwerks

I’m going to keep this post in check because I lost a very good friend yesterday to just this kind of argument.

Have you actually read anything about the REAL Libertarian Party in the US? Somalia is not libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, that’s got to be one of the most IGNORANT comparisons I’ve ever heard, and it seems to be the only one that anti-Libertarians are capable of.

Here's a link to the current Libertarian Platform.

Because somehow I doubt you will bother, I’ll quote from the Preamble for anyone interested:



As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others. We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person’s right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:55 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy
You are not wrong, in any way, about any of it, but your post neglects to address the root cause.

Human nature makes utopia impossible.

Humans have many failings. Greed, complacency, stubbornness, self importance, the need to be "right" are just a few.

I'm sure most educated/informed ppl acknowledge the corruption in government, as well as the ridiculously massive waste of resources.

They are not, however, willing to risk their standard of living to address the problem.

Those in the lower income areas, don't care about waste, as long as they get what they perceive to be their share. They aren't paying that much into the system to begin with.

Add to that, once ppl cast their vote for Representative, or Senator, they rarely follow up on how their candidate actually votes on specific issues, therefore do not hold them accountable. Even if they did invest the substantial time, and effort to do so, the bills and budgets are so complex, due to add ons, pork projects, etc, that it really isn't possible to get a clear picture.

Meanwhile the behemoth that is our goverment continues to grow, and leach resources, without any real impediments.



You state the reality of the situation very well. The prognosis doesn't look good, but I can't see a viable solution.

I'm not sure human nature allows for one.




posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 08:58 AM
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originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

The Constitution, our government foundation, was specifically written to limit the size, scope, power and authority of government.

If corporations are your fear, then blame the government for writing the laws that enable the corporations that circumvent the Constitution.


What is it that makes the government corrupt? What is it that makes them write those laws that enable corporations to circumvent the constitution? Was it what the founders wrote, was it how they designed our government, or is the flaw of government the people who run it?

It’s the people. People will always be greedy and corrupt. You can always count on that. So there needs to be some kind of system to hold that in check. What we have isn’t perfect, no doubt. But we can always change it. That’s what makes it better than the alternative.


If we can agree that people will always be greedy and corrupt, then why would you ever support a candidate or system that cedes more power, control, authority to the corrupt system?

This is what I mean about intellectual dishonesty.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:01 AM
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a reply to: Mach2

"Under capitalism man exploits man; under socialism the reverse is true."
- Will Rogers



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:02 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: underwerks

I’m going to keep this post in check because I lost a very good friend yesterday to just this kind of argument.

Have you actually read anything about the REAL Libertarian Party in the US? Somalia is not libertarian by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, that’s got to be one of the most IGNORANT comparisons I’ve ever heard, and it seems to be the only one that anti-Libertarians are capable of.

Here's a link to the current Libertarian Platform.

Because somehow I doubt you will bother, I’ll quote from the Preamble for anyone interested:



As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty: a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and are not forced to sacrifice their values for the benefit of others. We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.

Consequently, we defend each person’s right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power


I know the libertarian platform. And I know enough to see how that isn’t what is being practiced in real life by libertarians. I’ve argued in several libertarian corners of the internet for a while and know quite a few in real life.

At this point, they’re just disaffected conservatives looking for a place to call home because they no longer fit in the current Republican Party. If what they practice ever matched up to what they preached you might have an ally in me. But as far as it goes right now all those lofty ideals you guys throw around is just window dressing. It’s the same right wing BS under a different roof. Which is what any “small government” platform will eventually be: more power for corporations and less for the people.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:07 AM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

The Constitution, our government foundation, was specifically written to limit the size, scope, power and authority of government.

If corporations are your fear, then blame the government for writing the laws that enable the corporations that circumvent the Constitution.


What is it that makes the government corrupt? What is it that makes them write those laws that enable corporations to circumvent the constitution? Was it what the founders wrote, was it how they designed our government, or is the flaw of government the people who run it?

It’s the people. People will always be greedy and corrupt. You can always count on that. So there needs to be some kind of system to hold that in check. What we have isn’t perfect, no doubt. But we can always change it. That’s what makes it better than the alternative.


If we can agree that people will always be greedy and corrupt, then why would you ever support a candidate or system that cedes more power, control, authority to the corrupt system?

This is what I mean about intellectual dishonesty.


Because the government isn’t a person. it’s a system, designed by people. And as such can be designed to work any way we want. That includes holding in check the worst of us. I think that was the whole point until corrupt people whored it out by taking power away from it and handing it over to corporations.

It’s not having a system that’s the problem, it’s the people. And if the people can’t be fixed we have to change the system.
edit on 24-11-2019 by underwerks because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:09 AM
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a reply to: underwerks


This is the fatal flaw in your argument. If by taking power from the government it led to the government having less power, I’d be in your corner. Instead all it does is hand it to the American oligarchs. Which is an even worse idea. At least with government we have a system of redress.


So, you acknowledge that we're screwed either way.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:10 AM
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a reply to: underwerks

So you'd accept a corrupt government over corporations even though corporations run by the rules written by a corrupt government?


+2 more 
posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:12 AM
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originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

The Constitution, our government foundation, was specifically written to limit the size, scope, power and authority of government.

If corporations are your fear, then blame the government for writing the laws that enable the corporations that circumvent the Constitution.


What is it that makes the government corrupt? What is it that makes them write those laws that enable corporations to circumvent the constitution? Was it what the founders wrote, was it how they designed our government, or is the flaw of government the people who run it?

It’s the people. People will always be greedy and corrupt. You can always count on that. So there needs to be some kind of system to hold that in check. What we have isn’t perfect, no doubt. But we can always change it. That’s what makes it better than the alternative.


If we can agree that people will always be greedy and corrupt, then why would you ever support a candidate or system that cedes more power, control, authority to the corrupt system?

This is what I mean about intellectual dishonesty.


Because the government isn’t a person. it’s a system, designed by people. And as such can be designed to work any way we want. That includes holding in check the worst of us. I think that was the whole point until corrupt people whored it out by taking power away from it and handing it over to corporations.

It’s not having a system that’s the problem, it’s the people. And if the people can’t be fixed we have to change the system.


That makes no sense.

If we have corrupt people in our capitalist system and change the system to a socialist system, then we'll have corrupt people in our socialist system.

Changing the system will not change the corruption within.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:17 AM
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a reply to: underwerks


It’s not having a system that’s the problem, it’s the people. And if the people can’t be fixed we have to change the system.


I think you just confirmed that we're screwed either way. LOL! How do you create a system without people?



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:17 AM
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originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy

originally posted by: underwerks

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: underwerks

The Constitution, our government foundation, was specifically written to limit the size, scope, power and authority of government.

If corporations are your fear, then blame the government for writing the laws that enable the corporations that circumvent the Constitution.


What is it that makes the government corrupt? What is it that makes them write those laws that enable corporations to circumvent the constitution? Was it what the founders wrote, was it how they designed our government, or is the flaw of government the people who run it?

It’s the people. People will always be greedy and corrupt. You can always count on that. So there needs to be some kind of system to hold that in check. What we have isn’t perfect, no doubt. But we can always change it. That’s what makes it better than the alternative.


If we can agree that people will always be greedy and corrupt, then why would you ever support a candidate or system that cedes more power, control, authority to the corrupt system?

This is what I mean about intellectual dishonesty.


Because the government isn’t a person. it’s a system, designed by people. And as such can be designed to work any way we want. That includes holding in check the worst of us. I think that was the whole point until corrupt people whored it out by taking power away from it and handing it over to corporations.

It’s not having a system that’s the problem, it’s the people. And if the people can’t be fixed we have to change the system.


That makes no sense.

If we have corrupt people in our capitalist system and change the system to a socialist system, then we'll have corrupt people in our socialist system.

Changing the system will not change the corruption within.


Right back to the insightful and accurate Will Rodgers quote.



posted on Nov, 24 2019 @ 09:24 AM
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originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: underwerks


This is the fatal flaw in your argument. If by taking power from the government it led to the government having less power, I’d be in your corner. Instead all it does is hand it to the American oligarchs. Which is an even worse idea. At least with government we have a system of redress.


So, you acknowledge that we're screwed either way.


Not entirely, there’s always the option of changing the system for us, the common people while reigning in the power those that run our society have over us.

We don’t have to just say screw it all like the OP is accustomed to doing.



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