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Jesus did not preach a salvation theology consider the Gospel of Thomas and Gnosis vs Salvation

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posted on Nov, 9 2019 @ 03:59 PM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Raggedyman

Don't ya hate when things are stupid...



Triggered Ak?
There there, you hate my faith and I think yours is silly, do we want to do this again?

There are some very stupid saying in the book of Thomas
It was left out because Many scholars didn’t think it was valid
It’s also not a gospel, just a collection of quotes
That’s not just my opinion

Go have a cookie


lol hardly... but we get it, you think its stupid... though im sure you haven't even read it...

And by the way... the gospel of Thomas wasn't even considered for entry of the books in the bible... rejected long before Laodicea...

but thanks for coming out champ




posted on Nov, 9 2019 @ 06:57 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

I only read the good bits Ak
I am pretty sure the church fathers got it right in this instance
“Drink water from Christ’s mouth” hmmm
Water is the word is it? Thought Jesus was the ..”Word”
Akin to worshiping the bible in my opinion, like many Christians do.

I have issues with any beliefs that has secret teachings only a few know and understand
Tends to lead many astray



posted on Nov, 9 2019 @ 08:17 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

It's a ridiculous dogma. And show me where he said he would die for our sins. No twisting scripture and interpreting tricks. Show me where he said that?



posted on Nov, 9 2019 @ 08:58 PM
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a reply to: Joecanada11




Show me where he said that?


No!

You've already closed your mind to any dialogue on the subject. I will not fuel your ego any further. Ask God for the answers yourself, if its not too far beneath you to humble yourself before the Lord.



posted on Nov, 9 2019 @ 10:02 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I will never humble myself for a phony god that doesn't exist. That would be silly. And Jesus never said that which is why you can't prove it. Which proves your a liar.



posted on Nov, 10 2019 @ 03:43 AM
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“Gnostic” and “Apocryphal” come from Greek words that can refer to “secret knowledge” and “carefully concealed” respectively. These terms are used to refer to spurious or uncanonical writings that attempt to imitate the Gospels, Acts, letters, and the revelations in the canonical books of the Christian Greek Scriptures. The Gospel of Thomas is an example.

...
Internal evidence confirms the clear division made between the inspired and the spurious works. The apocryphal writings are much inferior and often fanciful and childish. They are frequently inaccurate. Note the following statements by scholars on these noncanonical books:

“There is no question of any one’s having excluded them from the New Testament: they have done that for themselves.”—M. R. James, The Apocryphal New Testament, p. xii.

“We have only to compare our New Testament books as a whole with other literature of the kind to realise how wide is the gulf which separates them from it. The uncanonical gospels, it is often said, are in reality the best evidence for the canonical.”—G. Milligan, The New Testament Documents, p. 228.

“Much of the Gospel of Thomas is plainly later and untrustworthy tradition . . . of no use for determining what Jesus said and did.”—F. V. Filson, The Biblical Archaeologist, 1961, p. 18.

“There is no known extra-cononical Gospel material which is not (when it can be tested at all) in some way subject to suspicion for its genuineness or orthodoxy.”—C. F. D. Moule, The Birth of the New Testament, p. 192.

“It cannot be said of a single writing preserved to us from the early period of the Church outside the New Testament that it could properly be added today to the Canon.”—K. Aland, The Problem of the New Testament Canon, p. 24.

Source: Early Catalogues and the Christian Greek Scripture Canon (1963)

More info:

Why Trust the Canonical Gospels Over Any Apocryphal Writings (2010)

“They have become a tremendous success. They have inspired films that cost millions . . . and best sellers . . . Christian sects have adopted them. They have given rise to religions and conspiratorial theories.”​—SUPER INTERESSANTE, A BRAZILIAN NEWS MAGAZINE.

WHAT was all the excitement about? The magazine was commenting on the recent popular interest and activities centered on a collection of pseudo gospels, epistles, and apocalypses discovered in the mid-20th century in Nag Hammadi and elsewhere in Egypt. These and other documents of this type have generally been referred to as Gnostic or Apocryphal writings. *

Was There a Conspiracy?

In an age when people generally are cynical about the Bible and orthodox religions, the Gnostic or Apocryphal writings seem to have struck a responsive chord. These writings have had a great influence on the way many view the teachings of Jesus Christ and Christianity itself. As one magazine stated: “The Gospel of Thomas and other apocryphal [works] speak to the heart of a group of people that continues to grow in modern times: those who are eager for spirituality but distrust religion.” It has been calculated that in Brazil alone “there are at least 30 groups whose beliefs are based on the Apocrypha.”

The discovery of these documents has popularized the theory that in the fourth century C.E., the Catholic Church conspired to cover up the truth about Jesus, that some accounts of his life presented in the Apocryphal writings were suppressed, and that the four Gospels found in modern Bibles were altered. Elaine Pagels, professor of religion, put it this way: “We now begin to see that what we call Christianity​—and what we identify as Christian tradition—​actually represents only a small selection of specific sources, chosen from among dozens of others.”

In the opinion of scholars like Pagels, the Bible is not the only source of Christian faith; there are other sources, such as the Apocryphal writings. For example, a BBC program entitled Bible Mysteries, “The Real Mary Magdalene” observed that the Apocryphal writings present Mary Magdalene as “a teacher and spiritual guide to the other disciples. She’s not just a disciple; she’s the apostle to the apostles.” ...

edit on 10-11-2019 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 10 2019 @ 05:48 AM
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a reply to: whereislogic
Know Thyself as the knower..... not the doer.
The knower is invisible.... never appearing.



posted on Nov, 11 2019 @ 09:59 AM
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"Gnostic" and "Apocryphal" are different things. "Gnostic" texts are a subset of "Apocryphal" writings. "Apocryphal" are simply non-canonical books that were rejected by the Church for inclusion into the Bible. There's any number of reasons why that could have been and lends itself to a dozen different theories, conspiracy or otherwise. That doesn't mean Apocryphal texts are or are not legitimate writings, as much as any biblical text can be.
edit on 11-11-2019 by CIAGypsy because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-11-2019 by CIAGypsy because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 16 2019 @ 03:13 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

The writer is not a Jew, All writers of the Bibles were Jews.

His writing came fifty years or so after the last book was written by John.

And lastly, you need to go back in and read the bible again especially Matthew - John. Jesus spoke a lot on how to be saved and salvation.



posted on Nov, 18 2019 @ 09:17 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: dfnj2015

The writer is not a Jew, All writers of the Bibles were Jews.


This is patendly false.The nation of Israel split in about 920 BCE into two kingdoms .The Northern Kingdom which was made of 10 tribes which maintained the name Israel.The Southern Kingdom of Judah was made of the 2 tribes of Judah and Benjamin(and whomever wanted to join).The majority of all of the old testament writers were not of the tribe of Judah .



posted on Nov, 18 2019 @ 09:25 PM
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a reply to: Rex282

You're splitting hairs. The writers of the bible were Hebrews.



posted on Nov, 18 2019 @ 09:36 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

The title of your post is nonsensical.The fact is the name Yahoshua(transliteration) in Hebrew means Yahweh saves /delivers.The doctrines of Christianity are false because they are the conflated doctrines of men.

How Yahoshua is accomplished is not known nor is a methodology given hower Yahoshua stated he came to deliver mankind(antropos) from Hades(not hell).The Greek word Hades(translated from the Hebrew word Sheol) means" the realm of death and the realm of impercption".

This seems to imply a state of "consciousness" not the body as Christianity has perverted it's meaning into their doctrines of men.Quantum Physics is unveiling(the definition of the Greek word apocalypse) through the double slit experiment(and many others) the fact that "matter" is not fundamental to existence only consciousness is.

Yahoshua very clearly stated the condition of all of mankind in the prelude to the explanation of the parable of the seed and explained he spoke in parables so those who think they hear and see(perceive) would be deaf and blind.It is all a process that none can do anything about much in the same way you were conceived without your consent then "delivered".

My suggestion is to Hold on, it's a short ride(relatively) and you have no idea where it is going or what it is.If you think you do you just proved Yahoshuas statements.



posted on Nov, 20 2019 @ 04:06 PM
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originally posted by: whereislogic
“Gnostic” and “Apocryphal” come from Greek words that can refer to “secret knowledge” and “carefully concealed” respectively. These terms are used to refer to spurious or uncanonical writings that attempt to imitate the Gospels, Acts, letters, and the revelations in the canonical books of the Christian Greek Scriptures. The Gospel of Thomas is an example.


As Pagels points out in her book The Gnostic Gospels there was no one "uncanonical" writings during the period where Gnostics and orthodox and many in-between scriptures were competing for dominance.
Bishop Irenaeus writes about this, he called most of the Gnostic groups heresy while they considered his group to be the same. Irenaeus wanted a structure with only certain people to be able to interpret scripture and wanted only certain scripture to be accepted while many Gnostics were much more open minded.

"Irenaeus is also known as one of the first theologians to use the principle of apostolic succession to refute his opponents.[47]

In his writing against the Gnostics, who claimed to possess a secret oral tradition from Jesus himself, Irenaeus maintained that the bishops in different cities are known as far back as the Apostles and that the bishops provided the only safe guide to the interpretation of Scripture"

Pagel's book paints a rather bad picture of Irenaeus.

Richard Carrier has made an excellent video about how it's all just another mystery religion (dying/rising savior son/daughter of god, sin forgiving, afterlife, and so on) starting with the earliest Greek version and moving to Persia, Syria and several others until a Jewish version came about and managed to become the ledger religion about 350 years later thanks to Constantine making it law in 380.

www.youtube.com...

some interesting points

2:47 - Persian influence

11:03 - basic trends in mystery religions

12:30 - earlier religions with savior demo-gods

20:53 How Christianity combined pagan/Jewish elements

35:00 - mystery religions and baptism, eucharist etc..



posted on Nov, 21 2019 @ 03:50 AM
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a reply to: Rex282
Only the realization of what actually is, will save you..... but the saving of you is also the death of the illusion of a you.

God is all presence...... and there is no thing separate in God/presence.

The separate you lives in time and needs time for the illusion of separateness....... but nothing can happen outside presence.

There is only ever what is actually occuring....... there are no things.

This is already freedom.

God is all presence, all knowing and all power........ where in Gods name are you?
Lol.

Jasoshua will never be accomplished because it is what already is..... there has never been or will ever be anything other.

It is the cosmic joke.

edit on 21-11-2019 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 1 2019 @ 02:44 PM
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originally posted by: Rex282

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: dfnj2015

The writer is not a Jew, All writers of the Bibles were Jews.


This is patendly false.The nation of Israel split in about 920 BCE into two kingdoms .The Northern Kingdom which was made of 10 tribes which maintained the name Israel.The Southern Kingdom of Judah was made of the 2 tribes of Judah and Benjamin(and whomever wanted to join). The majority of all of the old testament writers were not of the tribe of Judah .
I never said that the writers were Jews in a specific sense, I said the were Jews in general sense. But all the writers of the Bible are all Jews. The term Jew is not limited to just the tribe of Judah, you would be wrong in believing that. The bible refers to Jews as being from all the tribes of Israel. I would encourage you to do a word study on the 276 times the term Jews and Jew are used in the Bible.


edit on 12/1/2019 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 17 2020 @ 06:01 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015


The 4 Canonical Gospels are older than 130 to 250 AD.


Jesus is called The Savior in The 4 Gospels and Jesus says that He came to save people. He also said to be humble and that the greatest will be the servant of all and that His Followers should not be prideful like the rulers of the world.


"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." - Matthew 1:21


"For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." - Luke 2:11

"And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world." - John 12:47


"But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." - Mark 10:42-45




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