GOP lawmakers in three states want to ban trans health care for minors

Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!

Wedge Issue

a reply to: Boadicea

It’s not really hard for me, I want the government to have as little control over our lives as possible.

The assertions here that teams of medical professionals regularly abuse children is ... just absurd to me.

If a treatment is available, and administered according to the best standards medical science has, that is up to the individual. I’m certainly in favor of giving kids as much control of their lives as is possible including the ability to resist their parents’ overreaching actions, whatever those might be.

It would really be reasonable if many of the opponents to trans rights here actually educated themselves on the process of transition and associated therapies. Many, however, want to justify their prejudices by dramatic appeals to emotion that have little to do with facts.

originally posted by: CrazeeWorld777
a reply to: Boadicea

I'm not a resident of the US but hope this will make those over here in the UK change their minds on what they've been doing recently.

Lets hope the support for all this tran BS quickly diminishes

There's also quite a bit going on England (and the rest of the UK) right now with regards to Trans Rights policy and reform. Push has come to shove it seems, with more pushback against the more militant Trans Activism. Especially in terms of the treatment of trans identifying children. Tavistock and GIDS and Mermaids and Stonewall are all having a difficult time justifying themselves these days! And the pressure is only growing -- from academic debate and research, to medical research, to legal and policy challenges.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

Maybe the compromise could be passing a measure that allows adults who feel like they shouldn't have gotten treatment as a child to go after the physician who performed/prescribed surgeries and or "treatments" when they were children and didn't get a say.

Doctors would really think twice before exploring such options with the dramatic mom who looks to have pageant syndrome trying to live vicariously through her child.

I'm afraid the problem with such an approach is that the doctors can easily pass the buck to the professional associations who recommend this treatment approach, and rightfully claim that they were just following the "best evidenced based" approach as recommended.

They can also invoke "patient consent," although they would have a hard time establishing true informed consent, but they can still brush it off to the the "best evidenced based" medicine.

With the regulatory capture of the medical industry, and the trans medical field specifically, it's just a vicious circle of rhetoric and buzzwords and passing the buck.

The fundamental assumptions/beliefs among several posters responding here is that trans kids don’t have rights over their bodies. The associated belief is that trans people should be treated as second-class citizens, required to conform to the expressions of gender that the usual suspects here advocate for.

The case of child abuse is far more prevalent among trans kids who are absolutely forbidden to be free in their gender expression and identity. I’m sure that’s what many here would call “responsible parenting” though, right?

originally posted by: dfnj2015
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!
Wedge issue alert!

Wedge Issue

Unfortunately, you're right... the health and well-being of children has now become a political football... a wedge issue.

And it's a pretty sad -- but telling -- state of affairs when breaking and mutilating the healthy bodies of children is reduced to a political issue.

a reply to: Gryphon66

The fundamental assumptions/beliefs among several posters responding here is that trans kids don’t have rights over their bodies. The associated belief is that trans people should be treated as second-class citizens, required to conform to the expressions of gender that the usual suspects here advocate for.

That seems black and white... Which I think this issue couldn't be further from.

Absolutely kids should be able to be open minded and express themselves how they wish... But part of being adults is protecting them through that process as well, which is where people will start to disagree with one another.

Some of these treatments are irreversible, and can also have other impacts on development seeing as puberty is what starts the transformation from child to adult. I think we're still in the exploratory phase of all of this, and it doesn't appear anyone has the answers or knows what's right or wrong, or what the side effects can be. This has just started being done, and we have very little anomaly cases to go off of where a human has gone through their whole life span after such courses.

Can we admit that some kids go through phases? Is it possible that some could or would change their mind had they not gone through the treatments?

These are important questions I think need to be considered, and I don't think it's fair to just label people who ask them as people trying to strip rights away from demographics. There are plenty of rights we have as adults that we didn't have as children, and that's because many of these rights come with vast responsibility which also require a level of maturity to make decisions upon. Even then some of us get them wrong in adult hood.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

It’s not really hard for me, I want the government to have as little control over our lives as possible.

I do as well. That's why I'm debating with myself here. For now, I'm making children vs. adults the dividing line. If the facts as I know them change, then perhaps my opinion will change.

The assertions here that teams of medical professionals regularly abuse children is ... just absurd to me.

I think there's a lot to consider there. First, I think "abuse" is defined differently by different people in this situation, so "abuse" is a strong word to use. But I also think that these kids (and their parents) are not being well served by the experts and professionals in all situations, and in all ways, so there is some abuse. And we quite honestly do not know to what extent because the appropriate data is not known.

If a treatment is available, and administered according to the best standards medical science has, that is up to the individual.

And here is where it all fails due to regulatory capture of the medical industry. Medical research and technology, and therefore treatment, is driven by profit -- NOT the best interests of the patient. "The worst thing a doctor can do is kill someone... the second worst thing is to cure someone."

While medical intervention/treatment may be best for a very few patients, the current approach is to medicalize -- with lifelong consequences -- every patient. For the provider's best interests... not the patient's best interests. Informed consent is just not possible under the current conditions.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I’ll ask you an honest question CS: How do you think that some of the folks here who are obviously against trans folks very existence (“it’s xx and xy and nothing else, praise da lord”) are going to react if their kid tells them they’re having these thoughts concerns, etc?

Kids going through phases is well-understood and accounted for in the therapeutic and transitional process. Most kids do not continue to experience gender dysphoria after puberty. NO one is claiming otherwise.

The questions ARE being considered and have been considered for decades.

The advocacy “for kids” here is a thin masquerade for denying that transgenderism exists, CriticalStinker, all you have to do is track the associated rhetoric.

So, yes, your point is well taken. For many it is a process of black and white false dichotomy.

a reply to: Gryphon66

The case of child abuse is far more prevalent among trans kids who are absolutely forbidden to be free in their gender expression and identity.

Just want to clarify for myself and for the proposed legislation which is the topic of the OP, that social transition will not be addressed in these bills -- at least, that's what they're saying right now.

If that changes, I will oppose such inclusion.

Let kids express themselves and attire themselves and adorn themselves how they want. Period. That doesn't hurt anyone, including themselves. That's actually a great learning experience -- about themselves, about others, and about the world around them.

a reply to: Boadicea

How familiar have you made yourself with the transition process that isn’t part of anti-trans activism?

Abuse is the word being applied here. How much of your concern about current medical understanding is “we just don’t know?”

Profit motivated medicine is a valid concern in general. It is not the primary concern here.

You really do seem to believe that the transition process works differently than it does. I’ll get you some good links and post here or in a follow up post.

a reply to: Boadicea

Puberty and the onset of puberty is a CRITICAL factor in the success of later transition treatments.

The “we just don’t know” hesitation for puberty-blockers (which this legislation DOES certainly include) will make a dramatic and painful difference for some of these kids who do turn out to be trans.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Just for some nuance so you can see where I'm coming from....

I also think kids get over prescribed ADHD, depression, and anxiety medication.

Part of our problem is we are becoming a society who wants someone or something to fix us rather than learning how to cope and balance parts of our lives and bodies.

That's not to say some people don't have a different biological makeup that requires medical treatment... But we should use that as last resorts. So with ADHD, anxiety, and depression, these are all things that most people will have to deal with one or all at different points in their life. Should we just be giving kids Adderal and Xanax because they're experiencing things that are uncomfortable? Again, I think it should be last resort after we try and help them learn to use introspection and other outlets to figure things out.

At least with the above, I can speak from experience. I was the poster child or someone with ADHD, and have many times in my life had to navigate anxiety and depression. I can't speak from experience on the trans issue... But I think it's something that is just as fair to be skeptical and critical of as over prescription of the above which many people agree with.

We're seeing an uptick in just about every area of mental health problems in this country, and it's because we're too shy too talk about it, embarrassed, or don't want to hear other voices or perspectives about such issues. We're all going to have to do some growing, and teach that along if we really want to address root problems.

a reply to: Boadicea

Good. Minors are to young to make that type of life altering decision.

a reply to: Gryphon66

I think you make very good points... especially in terms of the extreme positions on both sides. One extreme will deny and denounce anything and everything "trans," and the other extreme will embrace and encourage anything and everything "trans."

Neither extreme speaks for the middle which represents the vast majority of us.

Our challenge is to find the middle ground. Let everyone live and let live where possible, but take reasonable precautions for reasonable risks. Including the longterm and/or permanent adverse outcomes from these drugs and surgeries on kids who do not have the maturity, wisdom or experience to make proper choices.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I don’t disagree with a single thing you’ve said.

a reply to: Boadicea

Absolutely agreed.

Here’s all I’m advocating for ... allow people to be who they are and do what they want as long as no one is harmed.

When there was talk about female genital mutilation I thought it was horrible. I see this the same way.

I admit this issue isn't widely understood, but like with the case with the 7 year old boy with his mom pushing to have his sex changed, it has shown something needs to be done. In that case, I do truly see it as child abuse.

The courts seem to be inept without a case setting precedence so laws being introduced is the next logical step.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

How familiar have you made yourself with the transition process that isn’t part of anti-trans activism?

All of it. Historically, medically, socially, and politically.

Abuse is the word being applied here. How much of your concern about current medical understanding is “we just don’t know?”

A great deal of my concern is that "we just don't know." Another huge concern is that there are major coordinated efforts to keep us from knowing. And there are major concerted efforts to control the research (including stifling research), to control the known "facts" and "evidence," and to control especially the narrative.

A big part of the reason "we just don't know" is because people who do know put much effort into ensuring that we do not know and cannot know.

You really do seem to believe that the transition process works differently than it does. I’ll get you some good links and post here or in a follow up post.

What I know is that "the transition process" is a moving target that varies by patient, provider, and region. And I know that what was true yesterday is not necessarily true today, and what is true today is not necessarily going to be true tomorrow.

I do know that too many kids (and adults) are not being properly or adequately assessed for pre-existing and co-existing mental/emotional disorders, especially trauma and abuse, much less receiving necessary and proper counseling and treatment. It is one of the main complaints/objections from desisters and detransitioners who are going public.

And remember, the Trans Activist Agenda DEMANDS self-ID -- "Acceptance without Exception" -- for anyone and everyone to declare themselves trans and receive all the rights and privileges thereof, with absolutely no psychological or medical diagnosis, much less treatment.

Whatever links you can provide me today, does not guarantee that they represent current practice and procedure, much less future practice and procedure.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Boadicea

Absolutely agreed.

Yay! There's our starting point...

Here’s all I’m advocating for ... allow people to be who they are and do what they want as long as no one is harmed.

I actually think we could all benefit from some gender bending in society. In fact, what I find most disheartening is that so much of society is so obsessed with stereotyping us by gender. It wasn't that long ago that folks thought the sky would fall if women wore pants, but it didn't. I'd like to see more defiance of gender stereotyping, let it play out and let everyone see it for the farce that it is, and we can all carrying on having our likes and preferences and druthers and no one will think twice about it.

And then maybe so many people won't feel like they have to change their bodies to fit their spirit... nor will we have so many who feel like they have to tell other people how to "do" and "be" themselves.