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Supposedly socialism has killed 200 million people

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posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 09:20 AM
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A couple questions need to be answered by the Republican members here before we can have an honest conversation about any of this:

1. Do you believe the Nazis were Socialist?

2. Do you think Socialism and Communism is the same thing?

What the right wing considers socialism isn’t close to what actual socialism is. Hell, most of the “socialist” policies of Democrats are center-right in the rest of the world.

The Overton window has shifted so much in this country that anything the government does to benefit working people is classified as “socialist” and then derided as if it’s going to lead to the death of millions of people.

But take that same government help, “welfare” if you will, and give it to giant corporations and it’s capitalism at work..

It isn’t a coincidence that the party that decries money going to social programs is the same party of billionaires and billionaire companies.




posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 09:24 AM
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a reply to: underwerks

Here’s the funny part: corporate welfare is the closest element the American economy has to “socialism.”



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 09:31 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: underwerks

Here’s the funny part: corporate welfare is the closest element the American economy has to “socialism.”



That is more crony capitalism where an industry / company uses politician's personal greed to enrich themselves.

Unions do it too... go look up the $1.5 billion Christmas gift the Chicago Public Teachers Union just got itself by striking for 10 days. All at tax payer expense.

The less power and influence government has, the less likely we have these situations....



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 09:35 AM
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a reply to: Edumakated

Agree with your last statement 100%.

Crony capitalism is an issue. Corporate welfare at US levels is dangerously close to overarching socialism.



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 09:40 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

“power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
-Lord Acton

Political systems aren't evil. Economic systems aren't evil.

People are.

Any political or economic system that gives more authority to those few at the top will be corrupt and cause more death because people are corrupt.



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 09:43 AM
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America is a full blown corporate oligarchy. The politicians are beholden fully to corporate and other monied interests. That will not change under the current system since the very laws of the nation are essentially dictated by corporate interest groups and lobbyists.

Voting for the pro-corporate donkey or the pro-corporate elephant will not overturn centuries of wealth concentration, influence buying and brown envelope deals.



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: DBCowboy

I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

Did we order an Apocalypse today?




posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 09:54 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

For me the idea of "MODERATE" socialism such as we in the UK had after WW2 AND also such as Sweden and Norway had is a perfectly workable model and while it allows corporate economic and private enterprise to run and compete it also provides state care and social safety net's of the highest caliber.

ANY totalitarian system will oppress and necessitate the death, imprisonment and brainwashing of a very large portion of the population.

That is ANY.

There is no such thing as a FREE economic system or a pure capitalists system as some on this site spout like brain washed indoctrinated automaton's trying to pursue merit's that simply do not exist.

Like wise there is no such thing as a true Socialist system above the level of cooperative movement's that are mostly family or community owned and exist only on the small to very small medium scale such as the Kibbutz of Israel (not the tourist one's the real one's were the people all worked and shared in common from the proceed's of there communal project and community).

All systems' have killed but as Socialism is the relatively new kid on the block as far as modern organized systems are concerned it has actually killed far less than capitalist based system's.

Crime's of Communism were about totalitarian control and not about the ideology of communism itself.

For example Mao killed millions, some claim up to a potential hundred million and perhaps even more during his cultural revolution which was not a communist move the move of a despotic tyrant wanting to hammer the people of China into a clay mold of his choosing, his REFORM'S were like a re-enactment of another famous Chinese Tyrant by the name of Qin, he murdered scholars, historian's, farmers (for being land owners), village elders and many others in his drive to destroy OLD class based Chinese society but in the event all he really managed to do was to put a new class system and a new form of Mandarin in charge called the party while he and his successors simply became the Emperors of the new China.

Lennin was not as bad as some on this site believe but he was no saint, Communism in Russia which had already become a mess early on then had to suffer the years of Stalinist rule, the terror of the Purges and the secret police as the whole system of freedom for the people was turned on it's head and the Army with it's general in charge, the NKVD forerunners of the KGB acting as secret police and anyone that disagreed with there NEW TSAR Stalin likely to be sent to a gulag or machine gunned into a trench in a forest (there are thousands of mass graves scattered across Russia were this happened) never to be heard from again, even Moderate - Original - Leninist communists were likely to be purged in this way.

The communist's also tried to stamp out Religion.


Capitalism, oh were to begin, mass killing's, purges, theft of land, colonization, slavery if we could see a death toll based on greed (and remember it was still greed that worked the same in Communism were being a member of the party was a meal ticket to the big time) then it would likely dwarf the communist death list.

But over a period of time, during the twentieth century there can be little doubt that Communism killed more people in less time, perhaps even dwarfing the death toll caused by the hideous Nazi's (whom some illiterate fool's on here claim were Socialists having never heard of the night of the long knives and how the NAZI's purged the socialists from there own rank's).

But if we look at how people have been liberated, given the right to vote, rights in work, food enough to eat, a right in many country's to shelter and food and water and education for there children (though in the UK under the Tory's these have been severely eroded with one TORY candidate a female even claiming that benefit claimant's should be put down like sick animal's) we can positively point out that these reform's were due to CHRISTIAN SOCIALISTS of the past, communists and anarchists hijacked and co-opted the Christian socialist movement but it still remained and until recently most Labour Leaders were genuinely Christian men while the Tory's while they may go to church have most often not been in any way the kind that st Peter is likely to allow past the pearly gates.

I believe your point is correct therefore, ALL political ideology's especially when taken to the extreme have cost lives.

BUT you know what remain's the best - TRUE (it no longer exists sadly but the concept does) DEMOCRACY were every man is expected to have access to the truth in the form of a FREE (NOT a corporate owned or politically biased but show me one that is not) PRESS and to be so informed that they can then make there decisions to the best of there future and expect the duly elected representative candidates to do there utmost to carry out the promises they make (Another failing most of them just fill there pockets or worse are corporate stooges these day's).

Christian socialism is NOT communism, there is such a thing as ethical state ownership, Capitalism is NOT Christian either as it is the religion of the very money changers that Christ flung body and soul out of the house of God - so if he did that to them down here what is going to happen to them when they try to buy a ticket into heaven?.

As you treat the least of these (the poor and downtrodden, society's rejected and sick, the widow's and the elderly, the small orphan's on the streets) so too do you treat me.

You won't get through to them, many of them have a very unchristian feel good abuse the name of Jesus and pray for money belief system and follow guy's with million dollar smiles whom live as multi millionaires with private jet's and sport's cars while they pay those scoundrel's money in the form of donation's, they will sit there listening too and watching there religious TV personality's and never once get off there arse and go and look at JESUS in the poor and downtrodden, all it takes is for them to VOTE for the good guy's for once but NO you see GOOD for them is not GOOD in the sight of GOD.



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 10:05 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: DBCowboy

I agree with this post whole-heartedly.

Did we order an Apocalypse today?



LOLZ





posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 10:49 AM
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a reply to: underwerks

"The goal of socialism is communism." - Vladimir Lenin



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 11:04 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

Republican atrocities:

Lincoln, 600K Americans dead.
Eisenhower, 35K
Nixon 60K
Bush I and II, 10K or so?






You think Eisenhower was guilty of this "atrocity" ie WW2?
Not Hitler or the Japanese?
FFS!



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 11:29 AM
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"Demand" is a desire is to buy goods for sale. Covetousness is to desire other people's things they rightfully own. Such a spirit begs for a government to seize other people's things and distribute them.
There is another term for living under such a government that claims power over all goods, services, money, and the lives of its citizens: slavery.
It seems as petty as "If I can't have your things, you can't have them either," and, "I'd rather live as a slave to the state than see people do better than me!"
Covetousness does indeed lead to pettiness and self destruction.
Also, our current system is obviously flawed (I would suppose its greatest flaws are corruption and an increase of socialistic policies creeping in already) however the answer to a corrupt government is NOT to give it absolute power. The answer is to reduce its power. (Also, to remove corporation's ability to have "human rights" and restore our constitutional rights. That's a good start)

a reply to: Gryphon66


edit on 4-11-2019 by JohnProctor because: (no reason given)

edit on 4-11-2019 by JohnProctor because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 12:19 PM
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O

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Edumakated

Agree with your last statement 100%.

Crony capitalism is an issue. Corporate welfare at US levels is dangerously close to overarching socialism.


Bloody hell. Try looking at Jeremy Corbyn and his cronies over here in UK if you want to see real socialism/marxism in all its "glory".



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 12:57 PM
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a reply to: paraphi

I think that one of the reasons that threads like this exist is that (primarily american) audiences hear the words socialism and communism, and automatically associate them with an authoritarian form of hard line Stalinism. I'm from the cold war generation, I lived under a communist government, a socialist government and a capitalist government.

During the 20th century the world was some brutal regimes, but their brutality was inherent due to those leading them forcing their will on others. Not because they were communist. Stalin would have been a monster regardless of his ideology. If he were a capitalist he would have sent millions of communists to the gulags. If he were a vegan I have no doubt that he would have enforced organism on the people just as brutally.

Just look at places like the Philippines and indonesia, or taiwan. They did most of the same things as stalin, but against communists. We even saw property seizure, just like in russia.

Socialism and communism can be good systems, so long as you aren't forcing them on people. I like socialism, I would happily trade in a system that lets companies like Google but up your dental records and fertility history and use them to sell ad to you without your knowledge for a system with built in consumer protection that most socialist states have.at

Would happily pay more tax in order to build rent controlled housing if it meant that I didn't have to step over homeless people every day just to go down the street.

Socialism means that you give more but get more. Even if sometimes what you get is indirect. Like fewer homeless on the streets.



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015




designed in such a way corruption is simply not possible.


It has been tried in every way since man walked this earth and hasn't been successful.
Just read or watch anything about communes or "Utopian" types of communities. There is always, always someone in charge or a leader. There is always someone getting a little more. I think this is just human nature.



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 02:05 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Sure, why not. Also was Rasputin a “good guy” or a “bad guy?” Used that one as a conversation starter with some college kids that were not fully educated once. Fun night.



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 02:13 PM
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originally posted by: Ahabstar
a reply to: Gryphon66

Sure, why not. Also was Rasputin a “good guy” or a “bad guy?” Used that one as a conversation starter with some college kids that were not fully educated once. Fun night.


They knew who Rasputin was?

Wow. That’s actually impressive ...

Have you ever heard this one?



Ra ra Rasputin
Lover of the Russian queen
There was a cat that really was gone
Ra ra Rasputin
Russia's greatest love machine
It was a shame how he carried on



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 02:21 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

No, had not heard it.

But sure, they were not historians or journalists so they had heard of Rasputin.



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 02:36 PM
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originally posted by: eXia7
See, you are only focusing on leaders killing people, but the real question is... how many people from a socialist utopia has died from famine?


Good question. Quite a few million. The collectivisation of agriculture in the Soviet Union caused extensive famine and hardship. Stalin use famine as a weapon. Ask a Ukrainian, who called it the Holodomor – the ones that lived anyway.



posted on Nov, 4 2019 @ 02:49 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

Wealth inequality does not matter.

Poverty does.


Most of the population in Venezuela is now equal but poor, if not staving. Same with Cuba.

America with all its' flaws is clearly better.

This leftist trope about inequality are leftists' fixations on ENVY AND JEALOUSY.



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