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If government is NOT the solution then what is the solution

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posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:10 PM
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There are many people who have argued government is the problem. There are many people who say we need smaller government, or they have argued for the extreme position of having no government.

"I'm not in favor of abolishing the government. I just want to shrink it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub." Grover Norquist

Having no government at all is anarchy. When you have no government then might is right becomes the solution. Having small government means corporations do not have any regulations which is best for maximizes profits.

There is no rationale reason why we should have consumer protection or worker protection laws. It really comes down to a choice of what type of society you want to live in. No one can justify why it's good to have any quality of life, for example, drinkable water. Nobody can justify why having child labor laws are good. For thousands of years slavery was morally okay. What is good is a choice.

I think government has a role to play in our society. But for years we have been bombarded with the idea government has no role. Government doesn't work. Government is the problem. Welfare programs cause poverty. Welfare programs cause divorce and crime rates in cities. People are solely responsible for everything bad and good in their lives. There is virtue is being selfish. Public school teachers are communists. And anyone who suggests any regulations of business at all is a communist. And anyone who suggests raising taxes on the billionaires making them pay their fair share or having any social programs at all to address inequality in this country is a communist. Any socialism at all and you are labeled a communist.

I am an FDR type Democrat. I believe government has a role in addressing wealth inequality in this country. As an individual, I have virtual no power to fight corporations and the billionaires. Government is the only force strong enough to stand up to corporations preventing them from rigging of the system in their favor.

Here are the words of FDR:

"An old English judge once said: 'Necessitous men are not free men.' Liberty requires opportunity to make a living - a living decent according to the standard of the time, a living which gives man not only enough to live by, but something to live for.

For too many of us the political equality we once had won was meaningless in the face of economic inequality.A small group had concentrated into their own hands an almost complete control over other people's property, other people's money, other people's labor - other people's lives. For too many of us life was no longer free; liberty no longer real; men could no longer follow the pursuit of happiness.

Against economic tyranny such as this, the American citizen could appeal only to the organized power of government.
" Speech before the 1936 Democratic National Convention

Laissez faire capitalism is a system of government with many negatives. Most people who are against having government just ignore the negatives or do not even acknowledge they exist. We have insane levels of wealth inequality in this country. People have virtually no power against the mega-corporations and billionaires. Unless you can pay many millions of dollars to lobbyists you have no power in this country.

Doing NOTHING about wealth inequality serves the status quo. Doing nothing about wealth inequality in this country results in the rich get richer and the poor get poor. It doesn't matter how hard you work. The system is rigged. How bad can taxes be if the top 1% own 99% of all the wealth in this country? At this point the only way the billionaires can become any richer in this country is by legalizing slavery again. Considered this article:

Disney’s CEO made 1,424 times as much as his employees. An heir to the Disney fortune thinks that’s ‘insane.’

Here's are the problem with everything posted on ATS with regards to politics. Before you start labeling me a communist or making derogatory remarks about my character or the content of this OP just remember one thing. Money talks and everything else is BS.



I classify every statement three ways. Either it helps the rich by doing nothing because the current system is rigged in the billionaire’s favor. Or it helps the rich by doing something (lowering tax rates on billionaires). Or as a public policy it might do something to address wealth inequality in this country. The rest of the political commentary here on ATS is hyperbole or BS.

I've been very critical of the negatives of laissez faire capitalism. But I can still appreciate the positives. Greed is highly motivating in getting things done. I don't generally think people should be rewarded for being lazy. But again, however, in this country given our obscene levels of wealth inequality we are about as far away from communism as you can get and still have a government currency having any shred of value at all.

So, I would be remiss in my diatribes against laissez faire capitalism if I did not put forth my own solution. As I've said many times, I am a proud socialist Democrat. But I do not ignore what the proponents of laissez faire capitalism are saying. For my solution I want the best of both Worlds. I want public policies to temper the excesses of laissez faire capitalism while keeping the motivation aspects of greed while not just giving out handouts to people who are not working for it.

Here is what I came up with. I would like to have a public policy with regards to how corporations are designed and operated. I would also like to address the way the tax system is rigged in favor of the people with all the money. Here is my solution.

1. Have a flat rate national income tax rate with no deductions where the starting rate is based on the median percentage being paid now with deductions.
2. We can't trust congress not to legislate some deductions so there has to be an alternative minimum flat rate tax of say 2% on all income levels.
3. Have a flat rate national tax of 2% on all income derived from financial instruments (CDs, Bonds, Capital Gains, Dividends)
4. The total amount of dividends paid out by a corporation cannot exceed 2% of total salary compensation paid out to all company employees in the same period.
5. Corporate CEOs salary cannot be more than 1000 times the median worker's salary in his company.

I wonder which number above makes me a communist for #4. If I put 100 times then I am a communist. My hope is putting 1000 times shows maybe I'm not a total communist? Is 1000 times enough? I'm sure someone here will argue slavery is our only answer for how much is enough because anything else would be a violation of our political freedoms.

Again, this solution is in line with my socialist values but at the same time compromising with the proponents of the positives of having laissez faire capitalism. I want to reward hard work by the people who are ACTUALLY DOING THE WORK! We need to return back to a society where hard work pays better than a life of crime.

Please do not attack my character. Please just let me know what you think in the post is good or bad and why. And most importantly tell us your solution. Or if you think nothing should be done.


edit on 2-11-2019 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:16 PM
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Wealth inequality is not a problem. Steve Jobs had all the wealth in the world. He is dead at a young age from cancer. His quality of life was no better than mine. Car. Check. Running clean water. Check. Electricity. Check. Access to healthcare, Check.

What did his billions do for him in the end. It didn't do anything because if I get his level of cancer I also die. Dude didn't even have a college degree which I do have.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:23 PM
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originally posted by: Stupidsecrets
Wealth inequality is not a problem. Steve Jobs had all the wealth in the world. He is dead at a young age from cancer. His quality of life was no better than mine. Car. Check. Running clean water. Check. Electricity. Check. Access to healthcare, Check.
What did his billions do for him in the end. It didn't do anything because if I get his level of cancer I also die. Dude didn't even have a college degree which I do have.




Well, if money is not important then why do people complain so much about tax so much. I don't think talking about Steve Jobs cancer is genuinely considering the problem.


edit on 2-11-2019 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:28 PM
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What does Steve Jobs, Oprah, Buffet have that you don't have besides money. I'm talking about you on a personal level. I know Buffet eats at McDonald's everyday. I'm not even worth a drop of his wealth but even I don't eat that crap. I'm also not obese like Oprah and not dead like Steve. I'm actually better off than all of them other than financial wealth. Would you really want to trade places with them. I wouldn't. One is dead, one is fat and can't lose weight and one eats garbage food and is old.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:34 PM
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You're trying to come up with a utopia that cannot exist because we're humans. Someone will always figure out a way to game the system or get greedy. Anything attempting to be 100% fair (define fair?) or equal for everyone will cause people to stop caring about work ethic. I'm being paid the same as Joe who doesn't work hard, why should I work harder than him? There's no advantage, no incentive. So take that into consideration as productivity falls, quality of product or service falls, output falls, shortage happens, things escalate from there. Nothing good comes from pure socialism and there are several failing countries right now that prove it. As much as I disagree with most of your statements regarding politics, I am not against a good discussion of ideas.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:37 PM
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a reply to: Stupidsecrets

We all eat food. We all buy cloths. We all die. Your post has nothing to do with my OP. This NOT a discussion of "better off" as subjective judgment. This is a conversation about facts and money. This is a fact:

"In 2015, the six Waltons on the Forbes 400 list were worth $136.1 billion, making them the richest family in the United States. They have more wealth than 43% of American families combined. Their net worth is nearly equal to the combined wealth of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett."

This fact is not disputed. The question of the OP is what should be done about it. What is your solution? Or do you believe NOTHING should be done. I'm not interesting in talking about Oprah's lifestyle.


edit on 2-11-2019 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:39 PM
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a reply to: HalWesten

This is the classic argument that there is nothing that can be done. I disagree with your opinion.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

Or do you believe NOTHING should be done.



Right. I don't think anything needs to be done at all. Why do you want other peoples' money so much?

People work HARD for their income. Why the hell should more of it go to people that don't want to work hard?



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:44 PM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

From my OP:

I classify every statement three ways. Either it helps the rich by doing nothing because the current system is rigged in the billionaire’s favor. Or it helps the rich by doing something (lowering tax rates on billionaires). Or as a public policy it might do something to address wealth inequality in this country. The rest of the political commentary here on ATS is hyperbole or BS.

Money talks, everything else no so much.


edit on 2-11-2019 by dfnj2015 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:47 PM
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originally posted by: NarcolepticBuddha

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

Or do you believe NOTHING should be done.



Right. I don't think anything needs to be done at all. Why do you want other peoples' money so much?

People work HARD for their income. Why the hell should more of it go to people that don't want to work hard?



I think babies should eat. Everything I posted has NOTHING to do with wanting other people's money. This is just meaningless hyperbole. Why don't you think babies should eat? If you actually read my OP, I never said money should go to people who don't work hard. How hard someone work is purely subjective.

"In 2015, the six Waltons on the Forbes 400 list were worth $136.1 billion, making them the richest family in the United States. They have more wealth than 43% of American families combined. Their net worth is nearly equal to the combined wealth of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett."

The system is rigged. You think it's fine. I'm not disrespecting your opinion.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:48 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

We all eat food. We all buy cloths. We all die. Your post has nothing to do with my OP. This NOT a discussion of "better off" as subjective judgment. This is a conversation about facts and money. This is a fact:

"In 2015, the six Waltons on the Forbes 400 list were worth $136.1 billion, making them the richest family in the United States. They have more wealth than 43% of American families combined. Their net worth is nearly equal to the combined wealth of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett."

This fact is not disputed. The question of the OP is what should be done about it. What is your solution? Or do you believe NOTHING should be done. I'm not interesting in talking about Oprah's lifestyle.



And why do you need this wealth on a personal level. What is it going to do for you and why do you want it so bad. I personally don't need it. I have everything I need despite being worth a tiny fraction of 1% and probably not even that of these billionaires. More like a drop of rain in a monsoon.

Why do you need it personally?



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:48 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: HalWesten

This is the classic argument that there is nothing that can be done. I disagree with your opinion.


Crony capitalism will eventually come to a screeching halt when the market and banks tanks due to the enormous national debt and collapse of derivatives. Just a matter of time...but martial law coupled with a military oligarchy won't be much of a solution. We don't have to do anything, trickle down economics is unsustainable. There's also a negative side....

www.usdebtclock.org...

It might be prudent to learn the Chinese language...I think it's called "Putonghua".




Please do not attack my character.


Good luck with that....
edit on 2-11-2019 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:49 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

We all eat food. We all buy cloths. We all die. Your post has nothing to do with my OP. This NOT a discussion of "better off" as subjective judgment. This is a conversation about facts and money. This is a fact:

"In 2015, the six Waltons on the Forbes 400 list were worth $136.1 billion, making them the richest family in the United States. They have more wealth than 43% of American families combined. Their net worth is nearly equal to the combined wealth of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett."

This fact is not disputed. The question of the OP is what should be done about it. What is your solution? Or do you believe NOTHING should be done. I'm not interesting in talking about Oprah's lifestyle.



So? Waltons created one of the largest corporations ever, why wouldnt they be worth 100 billion?

They employ hundreds of thousands directly and millions indirectly.

A list actor make 1500 times an extra in a movie. Your CEO stat is totally meaningless.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:53 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015

The system is rigged. You think it's fine.


What system? The system of humans being humans?

It's always going to be a tale of the 'haves' and 'have-nots.'

I personally don't like being a have-not, so I go out and do something about it.

I like to go out to ball games and eat filet mignon occasionally. I earn this privilege through my work.

I don't need to be a multi-billionaire on some list to be happy. Do you?

I live very comfortably and I don't owe anyone a damn penny.

I don't feel very rigged against, except when I have to go pay my taxes because people who don't work whine about how they have no money.

If you can't afford to feed yo baby then don't have a bebe!












edit on 2-11-2019 by NarcolepticBuddha because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 01:00 PM
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The best solution is that those who want a large socialist government that takes care of them should move to a socialist country. Those that want a smaller government more in line with what the founding fathers had intended should stay.

That would be best for both sides.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 01:01 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: HalWesten

This is the classic argument that there is nothing that can be done. I disagree with your opinion.


That's fine but it's not what I said. I said pure socialism won't work. I never said there wasn't a better way to do things. The statements you've made and responses to others are exactly why there are so many people that disagree with you. You want a system that treats everyone equally, pays everyone equally, feeds everyone equally, houses everyone equally, and that is not possible. We are all individuals with different wants and needs. We don't need a large government to do that for us and you are ignoring what I and others have said about wanting a small government like our constitution and the founders envisioned. Pay attention please - most of us want a SMALL government that works like it was originally designed to do - protect our borders, provide and maintain roads and such, protect our God-given rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and not much else. Every state has different needs based on many factors that the federal government cannot account for, thus the states have their own governments to address those issues.

If you want a utopia, go buy an island and create your own society. It's not going to happen here or anywhere else.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 01:04 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
1. Have a flat rate national income tax rate with no deductions where the starting rate is based on the median percentage being paid now with deductions.
2. We can't trust congress not to legislate some deductions so there has to be an alternative minimum flat rate tax of say 2% on all income levels.
3. Have a flat rate national tax of 2% on all income derived from financial instruments (CDs, Bonds, Capital Gains, Dividends)
4. The total amount of dividends paid out by a corporation cannot exceed 2% of total salary compensation paid out to all company employees in the same period.
5. Corporate CEOs salary cannot be more than 1000 times the median worker's salary in his company.


Government is a necessary evil for a functional society. Some common basic necessities should be provided, and that's it.
1. A flat tax on income, regardless of source, is fair.
2. NO deductions anywhere. A 20% (or whatever is necessary) tax across all income levels.
3. Covered above.
4. How can a business raise capital if there's no compensation for the risk to owners/investors? Employees face very little to no risk. Owners and investors have millions on the line.
5. Who cares how much the CEO makes as long as an employee has a fair, market-determined salary.

The only market intervention from government should be enforcing anti-monopoly laws, especially in businesses that deal with natural resources.

Amazon and Google were created in your lifetime. There is no reason YOU can't be the CEO of the next Google or Amazon if you create it. We all have a chance at the next big thing.

Greed doesn't create large companies and rich CEOs. Free market forces do. There are billions of greedy people on earth, from CEOs to door greeters. Only good ideas and investments reward greed.

Free market capitalism = greed is rewarded through innovation and success
Socialism = feeding greed through other people's innovation and success

People are not equal, and the government shouldn't force us to be.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 01:24 PM
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a reply to: Stupidsecrets

Believe it or not you kinda disproved your own point..

Wealth inequality is. Relative thing, not an objective one..


50 years ago a cell phone wasn’t considered required, but today it is.. 100 years ago running water wasn’t a necessity. Today it is..


And it will always be that way...


That is like us assuming as long as the poor have a piece of flint and a spear, what the hell are they complaining about..



Like you mentioned having a car as something that made sure you were good, right???



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 01:25 PM
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originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Stupidsecrets

We all eat food. We all buy cloths. We all die. Your post has nothing to do with my OP. This NOT a discussion of "better off" as subjective judgment. This is a conversation about facts and money. This is a fact:

"In 2015, the six Waltons on the Forbes 400 list were worth $136.1 billion, making them the richest family in the United States. They have more wealth than 43% of American families combined. Their net worth is nearly equal to the combined wealth of Bill Gates and Warren Buffett."

This fact is not disputed. The question of the OP is what should be done about it. What is your solution? Or do you believe NOTHING should be done. I'm not interesting in talking about Oprah's lifestyle.



Should be done about what? Why do you see the Walton family having so much money as being a problem?



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 01:26 PM
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JEEEZUS BABY!

Or football. I go with football.



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