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Democrat lawmaker says aborted fetal remains do not deserve a respectful burial

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posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 08:17 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
Abortion is a horrible decision to have to make. I ABSOLUTELY agree that as a society we should make every effort to reduce the number of abortions to as small a number as possible.

Let's PREVENT pregnancies rather than ending them. That removes the question of viability and baby murder altogether.


That I can agree with.




posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 08:25 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

I can't understand that you're not imposing your beliefs on the rest of us because that is what you are saying.

You're ADVOCATING for the LAW to be changed.

The same thing you claim that Democrats have done.

(I hope you're not taking this personally, you seem like a nice person.)



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 09:02 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: The2Billies

24 weeks is really a better number, but medically speaking anything after 20 weeks is considered a birth and not an abortion. So if at 22 weeks a baby came out for whatever reason and died it would be considered a pre-term birth. In 50 years that 20 may become 10 weeks, or 5, who knows. We consider a baby 'living' when it can be sustained outside the womb, and that is why that definition is stupid. Whether or not someone is human depends on science and medical breakthroughs. Someday when we can sustain a 1 week and 1 week is the point where we have 'human life' now do we outlaw all abortions? Using the argument most people use the answer would be yes.


Extremists on all sides make silly arguments. Absolutist arguments are generally silly arguments (except this one).

So when the natural birth of our little human at 28 weeks will kill the mother or when carrying the little human to term at 40 weeks, more accurately, what do we do?

If you want my opinion we say that there are times when taking a human life is not wrong. Like when a man breaks into my house to rape and murder my wife. I can choose to defend my family, or choose not to and hope things work out. I believe those mothers have the same option, choose to protect their life which is at risk, or choose not to and hope for the best.

But I recognize there is a life that will be ending, and even when a person is defending their family taking another life is a terrible thing with lifelong consequences usually.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 09:06 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

I think you don't understand my posts very well. Perhaps you can explain what you believe my posts are saying so I can formulate a better reply.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 09:09 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

How is comforting someone who is grieving what they see as a death and comforting someone who has just undergone an unpleasant medical procedure inconsistent?

Consoling someone is rarely a logical/legal argument, right?


When the two beings in question are the exact same gestational age and you believe one was a human child and one was not you have missed the boat on logic.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 09:16 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I think you are misusing the word murder.


kill
cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing).



mur·der
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another


All murder is killing, not all killing is murder. I can't kill someone because their life makes mine more difficult. I can kill someone when they are threatening my life.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 10:17 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Alien Abduct

So, a woman should be charged with murder if she miscarries?

(Ad absurdam arguments cut both ways.)


What about that girl that was charged with murder for killing her baby as soon as it was born. Do you really think there is a difference between the doctor killing the baby while it is inside her and her killing it as soon as it is outside of her?



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 10:48 AM
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a reply to: Alien Abduct

So you want to compare one about to be born and one already born?

Well the first difference is, you know, birth.

I know that the argument you're making is that the two cases are equal ... But that's just patently false.

Further I don't advocate killing any baby.

I'll make it simpler: is there any case for you in which an abortion procedure is morally acceptable?



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 10:54 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

As far as the development of the baby, there is no difference between a 40 week old baby in the uterus and a 40 week old that was just born.

There are those that actually believe a 40 week old baby should be able to have it's skull caved in during the birthing process because it is not a human yet, but would charge a woman with murder if she caved the skull in seconds after.

Unfortunately this is an issue where for too many people logic and rational thought has left the building.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 11:07 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Alien Abduct

So you want to compare one about to be born and one already born?

Well the first difference is, you know, birth.

I know that the argument you're making is that the two cases are equal ... But that's just patently false.

Further I don't advocate killing any baby.

I'll make it simpler: is there any case for you in which an abortion procedure is morally acceptable?


Only if the Mother's life is in danger.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04




There are those that actually believe a 40 week old baby should be able to have it's skull caved in during the birthing process because it is not a human yet, but would charge a woman with murder if she caved the skull in seconds after.


Who is advocating for that? Citation please!

a reply to: Alien Abduct



Only if the Mother's life is in danger.


Or maybe if the fetus has no brain or is otherwise so diseased/deformed that birth would be an excruciating experience that would only end in certain death.


edit on 2-11-2019 by Sookiechacha because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 11:36 AM
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a reply to: Alien Abduct

Understood.

I'm sure you realize the logical response to that. Thanks for an honest answer.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

None of that is any part of any argument that I have ever made.

However pretending that there is no life-threatening process between the two states as compared equally is quite frankly obscene.

Further what percentage of pregnancies are aborted at 40 weeks for any reasonable medical purpose? Actual stats please.

In the absence of that claiming that a 40 week abortion is exactly the same as murdering a new born is merely asinine.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:08 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

None of that is any part of any argument that I have ever made.

However pretending that there is no life-threatening process between the two states as compared equally is quite frankly obscene.

Further what percentage of pregnancies are aborted at 40 weeks for any reasonable medical purpose? Actual stats please.

In the absence of that claiming that a 40 week abortion is exactly the same as murdering a new born is merely asinine.

You, no, but there are those who do make that argument.

If at 40 weeks the mother's life is in danger the procedure that would be done is going to be a C-section or inducing birth. So there is nothing that will cause the woman increased danger by keeping the child alive.

A 40 week abortion is exactly the same as murdering a newborn. There is zero difference in the health of the mother. Actually, I take that back, it actually places the mother at greater risk to conduct an abortion at 40 weeks vs a live birth.

There is zero medical benefit to a 40 week abortion. There are people who believe it should be allowed.

I want to be clear, I am not in any way indicating you are among those people.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:39 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Fair enough. (I realize you're arguing a larger point than any I have made, but thanks for making that clear.)

How many 40 week abortions are prescribed or conducted in a year?

Let's rephrase that to make more sense in terms of the discussion, as that is sort of exaggerated ...

How many late-term abortions are prescribed or conducted in a year?

Under current law and standards of practice, wouldn't all of those be medically justified? (As admittedly horrific as that might be.)
edit on 2-11-2019 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:50 PM
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a reply to: The2Billies



If one is pro-abortion or pro-choice then creating human brains in labs to experiment on should not bother them at all.

Why is that because you say so? Pro-choice is huge topic and it is no a one size fits all.



After all fetus' feel pain quite early, at 20 weeks.


That is 20 weeks! Think about that a bit.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 12:51 PM
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There is no research to support the claim that fetuses experience pain at 20 weeks.

Zero, none, nada.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 01:33 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Fair enough. (I realize you're arguing a larger point than any I have made, but thanks for making that clear.)

How many 40 week abortions are prescribed or conducted in a year?

Let's rephrase that to make more sense in terms of the discussion, as that is sort of exaggerated ...

How many late-term abortions are prescribed or conducted in a year?

Under current law and standards of practice, wouldn't all of those be medically justified? (As admittedly horrific as that might be.)

It's possibly a little more nuanced than you might think. If the person determining medical justification is someone that thinks late term abortions are fine they are likely to claim medical justification when in fact the abortion is not justified.

So if you want an abortion for convenience, and they think late term abortions should be given, they will simply check the boxes. This is not conjecture, reviews have found this to be the case.

Now we need to also factor in only about 50-60% of abortions have a known gestational age. There is no law requiring reporting to the CDC. About 1-1.5% of abortions are late term, defined as after 20 weeks. This leaves room for a large amount of bias where that 45% that do not report gestational age could be far more likely to be late term.

I could be wrong, but legally there should not be any 40 week abortions, zero. If any are done they will not be reported. The problem is not that they are being done, but that there are those who believe they SHOULD be allowed, and some of these people are in positions of power.

The amount of 'medically necessary' late term abortions that are actually medically necessary is a very small number. Just find a provider who is willing to check that box.

However, while the occasional politician or news reporter will still indicate that late-term abortions are most often performed in the case of “severe fetal anomalies” or to “save the woman’s life,” the trajectory of the peer-reviewed research literature has been obvious for decades: most late-term abortions are elective, done on healthy women with healthy fetuses, and for the same reasons given by women experiencing first trimester abortions.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 01:38 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
There is no research to support the claim that fetuses experience pain at 20 weeks.

Zero, none, nada.

Quite correct. I actually don't understand why pain would even matter. I can't kill my neighbor if I do it painlessly. It's a red herring either way in my opinion. It's an argument designed to elicit an emotional response, which makes it a terrible argument.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 02:05 PM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

Based on the statistics I am aware of, the number is something like 1% of 1%.
That's 1% after 24 weeks and then 1% of that number.


ETA That is simply incorrect, beg pardon. The number is 1.3% of abortions happen after 21 weeks.

I'm not sure anyone thinks late term abortions are "fine." That seems overstated at best.

Late term abortions should be allowed because it's a medical procedure that is sometimes necessary. Not PREFERABLE and I don't know of anyone who thinks that including psychopathic politicians of any stripe.

As to the reality of aborting a 35-40 week old, I'll do more research and find out the facts and report back.

ETA: Unsurprisingly, there's not a lot of specific information available about third-trimester abortions. It seems the only justifiable medical reasons are severe malformation of the fetus/baby and life-threatening trauma for the mother.

Almost no abortion clinics will perform 3rd Trimester abortion procedures. The only one I find is in Denver CO.

3rd Trimester

From that page, toward this topic:



One of the main differences for third trimester patients having a pregnancy terminated for fetal anomaly is that they may wish to have an intact fetus that they can examine and hold as part of the grief process. For many of these patients, it is not a fetus - it's a baby. The woman and her family may request special procedures such as special religious ceremonies, genetic studies, formal autopsy, private cremation, or private burial. We can arrange for any or all of these special procedures upon request.

While these procedures or ceremonies can be arranged upon request, we do not expect or require any patients or families to go through any special rituals, ceremonies, or grief process at Boulder Abortion Clinic. Dr. Hern believes that the patient's own family, physician, and religious counselors are better prepared to provide these kinds of support at home in most cases.

edit on 2-11-2019 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



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