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Democrat lawmaker says aborted fetal remains do not deserve a respectful burial

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posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 06:57 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: The2Billies

originally posted by: strongfp
a reply to: The2Billies

She was referring to miscarriages, not abortions tho.


Which actually makes her statement quite cruel doesn't it. But if one is pro-choice then one finds miscarriages to be no big deal, just garbage on panties.


What do you find miscarriages to be? God's will?


No, what a leap you are taking with my thinking - a little bizzare leap in my opinion.

Miscarriages are in my opinion a horrific experience for the XX, especially if the clump of cells is wanted and expected to result in a "independently viable/sentient/pain experiencing clump of cells" when expelled from the womb. (put pro-choice language)

That a Democratic lawmaker would so grossly and callously equate miscarriage with abortion is a symptom of the reasoning of the Democratic lawmakers minds.

I thought it was a superb example of the liberal mindset. Miscarriage is no big deal, just trash, because liberals see a fetus as just trash in general, until it is viable outside the womb and breathing and the Dr. and XX have decided it should live.

It is a great example of where our culture is headed. Babies are not humans at all until XX says they are a baby rather than garbage to be discarded in the trash, even if viable, even if they feel pain, even if they are sentient after 24 weeks. As one Democratic Governor said "Just put it (ie newborn) aside while the Dr. and XX have a conversation about what should be done (ie if the newborn should be "allowed to live or die"). That is where our culture is today.

Callousness toward miscarriage and the pain it causes is a natural progression of this sort of thinking and reasoning.

Callousness toward those who think their little clump of cells is their child and not just trash until a Doctor declares it fit to live, is a natural progression of pro-abortion thinking and reasoning.



edit on 11/2/19 by The2Billies because: addition grammar




posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:07 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

You will note I asked a question, I didn't make a statement about your beliefs. I find it instructive though that you chose to interpret the question as you did.

Miscarriage is personally heartbreaking in most cases I have known personally. Speaking on the level of human individuals, which is where all rights begin. Miscarriage and abortion (two variations on the same thing) are almost always heartbreaking to the individual, which is what many who argue for anti-abortion statist principles like to ignore.

You've misconstrued and outrightly misstated what the lady from Pennsylvania said. That you chant the word "Democratic" shows that you think this is a partisan issue primarily rather than any genuine concern about propriety. IMO

Using terms like "liberal mindset" are exaggerations. Your take on callousness is your own individual preference.

If you don't want an abortion don't have one. If you want to prevent abortions, help with birth control efforts like education and provision of prophylactic measures. Don't try to impose your beliefs on the rest of us.

I am curious though ... what are you referring to with "XX?"



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:15 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

XX is a person who has a womb and is genetically a recipient of a womb and ovaries, without testes or penis.

Many liberals/progressives/Democrats insist anyone can choose to be a woman/female or choose to be a man/male, and to not respect that people can choose their gender is disrespectful, mean, transphobic, and sexist.

"Men" are having children these days, men who have the XX chromosomes and were born with wombs and ovaries, who identify as men and are considered by PC society to be fully male.

Therefore it is politically incorrect to say the word female in relation to abortion and having children.

I have been using terms like XX to be politically correct and not offend the liberal/progressive/Democrats.

To use the term woman or female in relation to having a fetal tissue in the uterus is offensive to many liberals/progressives/Democrats. That is why I use XX.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:23 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

Ah. Thank you. I understand your reference now. Probably dovetails well with other arguments against individual rights.

Oh, and there it is.

There are conservatives/reactionaries/Republicans who also support personal rights in terms of gender identity. I see I was correct about other arguments against individual rights.

Political correctness is a matter of personal opinion and pursuit of a political agenda ... as your post is here.

Biological females have differing chromosomal arrangements ...



Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.


World Health Organization
edit on 2-11-2019 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:25 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

Back to your OP and the misrepresentaions of the lady from PA ...

You have the right not to participate in an abortion procedure.

Why do you want to take away the rights of others to an often medically-necessary procedure?



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:25 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on anyone. I am simply making an argument in favor of viable fetus' being human beings who feel pain and are sentient (especially post 24 weeks)

You are free to disregard my argument and disagree. Just as I am free to disagree with your arguments.

As for "Democrats", all of these statements have been made by Democrats, the callous attitude toward miscarriage, the idea that a newborn can be set aside at birth and the Dr and XX decide to let it die on a cold metal tray. Even Obama, the ultimate Democrat fought for unrestricted late term abortion, even if XX was healthy and the fetal cells 40 weeks old and viable. It has only been Democrats who have pushed this particular, what I view as, radical and calloused agenda.

But you don't have to see this as calloused if you don't want to. I won't make you think anything. But I can certainly give my opinion, that doesn't mean I'm forcing anything on you.

If anything, Democrats have been attempting to and in some cases actually legally forcing their idea of morality - allowing newborns to die at the discretion of XX - and the killing of viable fetuses after 24 weeks even if XX and the fetus is healthy.






edit on 11/2/19 by The2Billies because: addition



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:31 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: The2Billies

Back to your OP and the misrepresentaions of the lady from PA ...

You have the right not to participate in an abortion procedure.

Why do you want to take away the rights of others to an often medically-necessary procedure?


Did I say that? No I did not, again you are making assumptions about my thinking.

I don't want to take away anyone's "rights". I simply don't agree that abandoning the rights of the viable/sentient/pain experiencing baby (24-40 weeks) - to legally say it can be killed for absolutely no other reason then XX wants it killed, is right or moral or just.

But you don't have to think that, but I think you think I must see this issue your way or I am trying to force my thinking on you.

Typical liberal thinking:
"my thinking is correct, yours is wrong", and you must not express your opinion if you disagree with me,
or it is mean and forcing your opinion on others.
Expressing my opinion is truth telling and you better accept it
because I'm making my thinking into law so you have to agree with me and accept it.





edit on 11/2/19 by The2Billies because: addition grammar



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:34 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

More precisely, you posted a misrepresentation of what another person said in order to stage your own arguement.

Not really a way to start an honest argument eh?

It is your claim that fetusses are sentient; this is not something you know for a fact. However, that isn't really your argument is it? At least, not fully ... so another misrepresentation and we haven't even looked carefully at your argument.

I am free to disregard your argument and disagree. I am also free to point out the dishonesty, misrepresentations and fallacies of your argument, which I am doing.

The lady in your video is apparently a Democrat yes. The rest of your assumptions are unfounded. There are Democrats who are anti-abortion as well, thus, your argument is primarily a partisan argument. That's fine, but don't pretend otherwise.

Tell me ... how has a Democrat forced you to change your idea of morality? How so?

And then perhaps you'll be so kind as to answer why you want to impose your beliefs on others by arguing against a person's right to have an oft-times medically-necessary procedure (abortion)?



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:38 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66
I already responded. Read my post above yours.

Democrats have made their version of what is moral law. So while I have to respect the law, I don't have to agree with it. Not agreeing with it, is not the same as forcing my beliefs on you. Making your beliefs law is forcing your beliefs on me.

I wasn't misrepresenting what she said at all. She called miscarriage "an early miscarriage is just some mess on a napkin"

We DO KNOW that at 24 weeks a fetus is sentient, certainly it is sentient when many are born early at that age and survive and thrive. To deny this is to deny science.

Regardless of chromosomal arrangement, one must have two XX chromosomes to be able to carry fetal tissue to full term. Therefore, only someone with XX (Plus any other arrangement) is affected by this argument. Odd that you were offended that I used XX instead of women/females when males are having babies these days as well as abortions.







edit on 11/2/19 by The2Billies because: addition grammar

edit on 11/2/19 by The2Billies because: addition



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:42 AM
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a reply to: strongfp

It's very similar to a heavy period. I agree, no one else should tell someone else how to grieve or what should or should not matter. My two problems are these, the person who said this is telling people how they should feel. That's a no-no. The other problem is when someone miscarries at 19 weeks and someone says I am sorry for the loss of your child and then goes to another person who had an elective abortion at 19 weeks and says there is no loss and there was no child. That's hypocrisy. Whatever you do, or believe, be consistent.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:44 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

Oh ... I see you did answer ... no actually I'm not making any assumptions at all.

Your argument is making an appeal to emotion. It is simply not medically accurate to refer to an embryo or fetus as a baby.

For the record, I do agree with the necessity of a legal establishment of exactly when a zygote/embryo/fetus becomes a human. I think that would clear up a lot of these arguments that misrepresent the matter. Currently that measure is "viability" as determined in Roe v. Wade et. al.

So your argument is based on a very carefully constructed premise that a non-viable fetus (etc.) is a baby. Sure, you can argue that til the cows come home, but it's an opinion not fact.

Let me rephrase my question: is there a time in your opinion when an abortion is justified medically?



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:48 AM
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originally posted by: The2Billies
a reply to: Gryphon66
I already responded. Read my post above yours.

Democrats have made their version of what is moral law. So while I have to respect the law, I don't have to agree with it. Not agreeing with it, is not the same as forcing my beliefs on you. Making your beliefs law is forcing your beliefs on me.

I wasn't misrepresenting what she said at all. She called miscarriage "an early miscarriage is just some mess on a napkin"

We DO KNOW that at 24 weeks a fetus is sentient, certainly it is sentient when many are born early at that age and survive and thrive. To deny this is to deny science.



So this IS a partisan argument for you! As I said. Morals are a part of the foundation of law, so I'm not certain what you hope to achieve with that line of argument. Are you truly trying to pretend that no one who votes Republican supports the right to choose? Balderdash.

You don't have to agree with what law? What "morally challenging" law do you take exception to?

Yes, you misrepresented what the lady said multiple times.

Prove that a fetus at 24 weeks is sentient then. Stop arguing from ignorance.

And again, in your opinion, from your own moral code ... is there any instance in which the medical procedure of abortion is warranted, yes or no?
edit on 2-11-2019 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:51 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

How is comforting someone who is grieving what they see as a death and comforting someone who has just undergone an unpleasant medical procedure inconsistent?

Consoling someone is rarely a logical/legal argument, right?



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:54 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: The2Billies

Oh ... I see you did answer ... no actually I'm not making any assumptions at all.

Your argument is making an appeal to emotion. It is simply not medically accurate to refer to an embryo or fetus as a baby.

For the record, I do agree with the necessity of a legal establishment of exactly when a zygote/embryo/fetus becomes a human. I think that would clear up a lot of these arguments that misrepresent the matter. Currently that measure is "viability" as determined in Roe v. Wade et. al.

So your argument is based on a very carefully constructed premise that a non-viable fetus (etc.) is a baby. Sure, you can argue that til the cows come home, but it's an opinion not fact.

Let me rephrase my question: is there a time in your opinion when an abortion is justified medically?


Pre-viability: especially in the first 8 weeks is no one's business but the woman. I don't agree with it, but I don't want it outlawed either. Between 8-16 weeks, I still don't agree with but am not proposing it be illegal.

After 17 weeks when pain is present: I find abortion to be like pulling the legs off an insect or torturing a pet to be acceptable and moral and just. The very least society can do is make it a law that the fetus is sedated so it doesn't feel pain as it's limbs are ripped off it's body, or it is beheaded, to allow for an abortion to take place.

After 24 weeks when science has concluded sentience is reached along with pain receptors fully developed: I personally think it should be illegal - except if the life of the mother is at stake (not her mental health/her physical health and IF a c-section is not the faster lifesaving alternative) or the fetus would die shortly after birth due to un-correctable medical problems. I find allowing XX and Dr. to choose to allow a newborn to die on a metal table because XX doesn't want it to be allowed to live as completely and utterly immoral, as one Democratic Governor said should be allowed.

Again, this is my opinion, take it or leave it. I'm not forcing my ideas on you. You asked for them, here they are.

Just realize that liberals/Democrats through lawmaking have forced their opinions on me by codifying these practices after week 17 into law.



edit on 11/2/19 by The2Billies because: addition



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 07:56 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

24 weeks is really a better number, but medically speaking anything after 20 weeks is considered a birth and not an abortion. So if at 22 weeks a baby came out for whatever reason and died it would be considered a pre-term birth. In 50 years that 20 may become 10 weeks, or 5, who knows. We consider a baby 'living' when it can be sustained outside the womb, and that is why that definition is stupid. Whether or not someone is human depends on science and medical breakthroughs. Someday when we can sustain a 1 week and 1 week is the point where we have 'human life' now do we outlaw all abortions? Using the argument most people use the answer would be yes.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 08:06 AM
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a reply to: The2Billies

Those are very reasonable personal limitations if I may say so.

I would be the first to say that avoiding as much pain as possible in any procedure is preferable to not doing so. For all concerned.

Viability at 24 weeks is not primarily a medical threshold but a legal one established in judicial actions.

Your claim that you're not forcing your ideas on others is untrue FROM YOUR OWN ARGUMENT!

You stated clearly that you want abortion to be illegal after a certain point, even though you have moral justifications for abortions happening AFTER that point. Please don't pretend otherwise. If it's murdering a baby after 24 weeks to save the mother, it's murder.

Except that, horrifically in my opinion, you claim that it's okay to murder a baby if you agree with the terms and conditions (to save a mother's life.)

As I said, this is a partisan issue for you primarily. Democrats have not forced you to have an abortion, nor forced you to believe or accept anothers gender identity.

You have advocated here for changing the laws to reflect your own beliefs. To deny that fact is absurd.



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 08:07 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It appears we fundamentally disagree on what is human life, what is valuable and what is not valuable, who is valuable as a human and who is not valuable as a human.

For now I take a stand at what science has determined to meet the criteria of feeling pain and sentience. A 24 week old fetus reacts to sounds, sucks it's thumb, explores it's limbs, and meets what science has determined is sentience. (BTW, I taught Human Growth and Development, including fetal development in University and am now retired, so I know what science says.)

For me I find it unconscionable to tear apart any living thing limb by limb while it feels excruciating pain and find it to be immoral. Just as torturing insects by pulling off their legs and antennae one by one is immoral. But that is me. I won't force you to find torture of a living being who is able to feel excruciating pain by pulling it's limbs off one by one to be immoral. So after 17 weeks I find abortion as it is practiced to be quite cruel and liken it to torture of small animals and insects. But it is not illegal to torture insects, surprisingly it is illegal to torture small animals but not tiny humans who feel pain.

There is a line. Pain for me is the first line and sentience the second uncrossable line without strict restrictions for exceptions. You may not care about the pain or not believe science but that is your choice.



edit on 11/2/19 by The2Billies because: addition



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 08:09 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: The2Billies

24 weeks is really a better number, but medically speaking anything after 20 weeks is considered a birth and not an abortion. So if at 22 weeks a baby came out for whatever reason and died it would be considered a pre-term birth. In 50 years that 20 may become 10 weeks, or 5, who knows. We consider a baby 'living' when it can be sustained outside the womb, and that is why that definition is stupid. Whether or not someone is human depends on science and medical breakthroughs. Someday when we can sustain a 1 week and 1 week is the point where we have 'human life' now do we outlaw all abortions? Using the argument most people use the answer would be yes.


Extremists on all sides make silly arguments. Absolutist arguments are generally silly arguments (except this one).

So when the natural birth of our little human at 28 weeks will kill the mother or when carrying the little human to term at 40 weeks, more accurately, what do we do?
edit on 2-11-2019 by Gryphon66 because: Noted



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 08:12 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: The2Billies

24 weeks is really a better number, but medically speaking anything after 20 weeks is considered a birth and not an abortion. So if at 22 weeks a baby came out for whatever reason and died it would be considered a pre-term birth. In 50 years that 20 may become 10 weeks, or 5, who knows. We consider a baby 'living' when it can be sustained outside the womb, and that is why that definition is stupid. Whether or not someone is human depends on science and medical breakthroughs. Someday when we can sustain a 1 week and 1 week is the point where we have 'human life' now do we outlaw all abortions? Using the argument most people use the answer would be yes.


Extremists on all sides make silly arguments. Absolutist arguments are generally silly arguments (except this one).

So when the natural birth of our little human at 28 weeks will kill the mother or when carrying the little human to term at 40 weeks, more accurately, what do we do?


I already answered that. Please re-read several comments up.

Just realize I'm not forcing my beliefs on you or anyone, you asked my opinion and I gave it. Take it or leave it.

Democrats HAVE forced their beliefs on the rest of us through lawmaking.

I don't get why you are so angry that I have answered your questions and given my opinion. You are free to take it or leave it. Obviously the law says leave it and I have to abide by that. Laws made by liberals and Democrats say my opinion doesn't count, so why do you get so upset when you ask for my opinion and then don't like it? I don't care one way or the other if you personally agree with me.


edit on 11/2/19 by The2Billies because: additon



posted on Nov, 2 2019 @ 08:12 AM
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Abortion is a horrible decision to have to make. I ABSOLUTELY agree that as a society we should make every effort to reduce the number of abortions to as small a number as possible.

Let's PREVENT pregnancies rather than ending them. That removes the question of viability and baby murder altogether.



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