'Christian Hypocrite' Conspiracy

I was gladly surprised to hear the detail in your post. My test is this: Are you John 3:16? This is the promise set before us to accept or reject. I like your answer better because it gives a lot of 'how' and 'why' a lot of us need.



[edit on 29-3-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by helen670
However, it is in the very nature of God's Glory that only those who have purified themselves and acquired selfless love may spend eternity with Him, may, so to speak, partake of the eternal feast.

I'm a little confused as to this answer. How do you enter eternity with God? How do you prurify yourself?

How does one partake of this ''eternal feast''?

Hmmmm .....I'll see if I can answer that .......
Well..........There's a bit to read ....I hope that helps a bit.....
quote///

Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me (Mark 8:34).

What does this mean.......deny himself, and take up his Cross?
quote//The words whoever desires mean that Christ does not compel anyone to follow Him. He has no need of the unwilling ones, but He desires that each person freely follow Him. Consequently, only those who willingly choose the Savior’s path reach the Kingdom of Heaven.

There's the web page below with the rest of the above....

www.orthodoxinfo.com...
hope that helps...
helen........

And saintforGod........I myself dont know that much......The more I read ...the more there is to know......Thank God for His Saints and Fathers of the True church.....
thank you for your kind words....

helen....

Will Christians please stop quoting the bible to back up their arguement...you're making an Ass of yourself and anybody who cares to take notice.

Originally posted by BobDylan
Will Christians please stop quoting the bible to back up their arguement...you're making an Ass of yourself and anybody who cares to take notice.

If I was to say something of my own , then would you not say''''WHERE'S THE PROOF'' of your argument???

So I quote// because I have no other choice.....
Would you not back an argument from a text you have read to prove your point?
There is no difference whether I do or not......
BUT .....It becomes a matter of faith and what one is willing to accept ......

Originally posted by helen670
Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me (Mark 8:34).

I have another question I read some of what was written on the link you gave. Unless I missed it there was no mention of someone personally accepting that they are a sinner. And the way back to God is through Jesus Christ and the salvation found in Him alone.

I saw in a roundabout way that they mentioned Christ's suffering for our sin, but there was no instruction that each person individually needs to accept/believe/trust in Christ on a very personal level for redemption.

What I'm getting at is I think alot of people are "aware"(have in the back of their mind) that Jesus died for sin, so everything is OK. They don't realize they must be born again. They haven't let that fact sink in to the point that they have come to him for salvation.

Are you saying that the way back to God is to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me? This seems like a way to "try" to clean up your life on your own.

The first step is to trust in Jesus Christ and what He's done for the remission(forgiveness of sins, past, present, future) , and that isn't clearly said.

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by helen670
Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me (Mark 8:34).

I have another question I read some of what was written on the link you gave. Unless I missed it there was no mention of someone personally accepting that they are a sinner. And the way back to God is through Jesus Christ and the salvation found in Him alone.

I saw in a roundabout way that they mentioned Christ's suffering for our sin, but there was no instruction that each person individually needs to accept/believe/trust in Christ on a very personal level for redemption.

What I'm getting at is I think alot of people are "aware"(have in the back of their mind) that Jesus died for sin, so everything is OK. They don't realize they must be born again. They haven't let that fact sink in to the point that they have come to him for salvation.

Are you saying that the way back to God is to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me? This seems like a way to "try" to clean up your life on your own.

The first step is to trust in Jesus Christ and what He's done for the remission(forgiveness of sins, past, present, future) , and that isn't clearly said.

Hi dbrandt...
Christ went through all this suffering because He knew that we would go through this as well......especially in the times of the early church and the many Christians that did suffer for the truth.....
Many were tortured to make them deny Christ......but instead the opposite happened.......they accepted their fate and went to their death with Christ on their lips.........unlike many today who curse God if anything goes wrong.......and when things go right .....we accept it as our own doing....

Yes, many Christians do beleive that by being a Christian is all that it is.....it is not !
Yes, Christ died for our sins.........but as a Christian one must carry the Cross......one must live a life in Christ ......not just outwardly, but inwardly with prayer, fasting and the Church(ekklisia.which means a group of people)
Church is not just an outward building as many think.....
Church is what Christ said.......He will resurrect the Body in 3 days.....which meant He would come back Resurrected and the people will accept Him as being the New Testament......He appointed Apostles....who later became the FATHERS of the church.......
These Apostles had all the same authority and did nothing on their own accord......all held the same place......
Because Christianity became known world wide, there had to be buildings to accomidate the faithful......before this the services were held at peoples homes......(like if one was to have a party, with lots of people.one needs to have a place to accomidate these many people)

Christ said He shall not let the Church be destroyed....and will remain till the ''end of the world'' ...here, Christ is not speaking about the building , but of the people and the tru Christianity........which will always be there for all to seek it....
As for Christians that think they are saved by merely being a Christian......this is wrong.......
Lives of many people living the true life in Christ(especialy early church Fathers ) can be found and read to truly know and understand what Christianity is all about........
To follow Christ .one must walk in His footsteps and imitate Him.....that is why many Saints have prophecised that to live in this age(the last days) will receive a big reward from Heaven......because the people of no faith and not knowing of the truth will seek to destroy all Christians.......but in the end.........Christ tells us that the Antichrist and his followers will be the ones that truly suffer ...

helen..

Originally posted by BobDylan
Will Christians please stop quoting the bible to back up their arguement...

What else would one who believes Jesus to be the Incarnate Word of God quote? What "better" source would you want us to use?

Your apparent ignorance is ASTOUNDING! Do you tell history professors to stop quoting history books or lawyers to quit citing statutes? How about Muslims to stop quoting the Koran, or practicing Jews to stop reading from and using the Torah?

It seems you are quite willing to use slurs to paint on the word "Christians", but your statement is without logic, sense, or even originality.

An donkey spoke to a man once, because the man would not listen, and was about to be killed by something the man could not see, for all his arrogant humanity, but which the donkey saw very clearly. (Num 22:23).

Perhaps this is your wake up call.

Originally posted by curiousity
What else would one who believes Jesus to be the Incarnate Word of God quote? What "better" source would you want us to use?

You don't see any error in using a source to back it up?

Yes, In the beginning was the WORD....LOGOS and the Word was with God and the Word was God...

So there's my source......

Let's now have the evolution of our Existence.....
Not Another Big Bang theory!

Glory be to God..
helen

dbrandt

Are you saying that the way back to God is to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me? This seems like a way to "try" to clean up your life on your own.

The first step is to trust in Jesus Christ and what He's done for the remission(forgiveness of sins, past, present, future) , and that isn't clearly said.

I feel you, dbrandt, that was the question that came to my mind also when I read "helen's" post and the web site she referenced (didn't read all of it either, just going by what I skimmed, the gist does appear to be the "self-help", human-effort type of salvation it appears you, and certainly I eschew).

"...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." (2 Tim 1:12)

This verse has been a mainstay for me throughout the years of my Christian walk. I have found any of my own efforts to be useless in regards to maintaining, increasing, or improving my "holiness". In fact, I've found all my "righteousness" to be, in fact, "filthy rags". I have found that IN SPITE of my fumblings, disobedient sins, and ill founded attempts at "getting it together", my God has in fact given me great favor in His eyes, and grace upon grace.

"And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." 2 Cor 12:9

Lest anyone should so much as imagine I am justifying my failure to be holy, or anyone else's, let me assure you, there is none who knows better than I that salvation is based neither on my goodness nor my badness. If Paul hadn't said it first, I'd have to say I am the "chief of sinners", as a bald statement of fact, with no false humility intended or thought of.

Yet, I am convinced that the new life was given me so that I might enjoy, both now and eternally, the Presence of God without torment of fear or guilt.

One of our major"efforts" is the great privilege outlined in 1 John 1:9 to confess my sins, in other words, and believe He is "...faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." The other "work" according to Jesus in John 6:29 is "that you believe in Him whom He sent." These "works" are oriented properly, ie toward the Father, toward Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Savior, and the Word of God.

Nevertheless, it is not even these 2 efforts that "saves" me but my belief in HIS complete and total sinless holiness(John 3:16); that He was nailed to the Tree with the "writings" of judgement against me nailed there with Him (Col 2:14), and that He is willing to have His blood envelop me in His own righteousness (Isa 61:10 He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness.... )

In fact, when I think on His goodness and His mercy, I want to shout and sing with the angels,

HOLY, HOLY, HOLY, IS THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY WHO IS, WHO WAS, AND WHO IS TO COME!!!

The accusation that what this tenet is "really" saying is we can live as sinfully as we wish was also made against those in Paul's day, who trusted solely in the mercy and grace of God, and not on their own efforts "--as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say,...Let us do evil that good may come. Their condemnation is just."(Rom 3:8)

God forbid! "....For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light..."(Eph 5:8)

Yes, we are to live as befits "children of the Light" (Eph 5:8), to be "holy as He is holy". The difference is on what we're depending..whether leaning on God and His strength, learning His way of doing and being right out of love and appreciation of His goodness or depending on our efforts to acquire holiness, whether it is thru fasting, praying, or some other spiritual "duty".

Consider for yourselves, what kind of human relationship is marked by "duty" first? Is it a love relationship, one of intimacy and loyalty? Or is it a burden, endured through human strength? Yet of course we do have "duties", to be a parent, provide for our families, be good citizens, etc. Our "duties" are earthbound, however, and not Heavenly.

God wants us to be attentive, so He can give us peace.(Isa 26:3 You will keep him in perfect peace, Whose mind is stayed on You, Because he trusts in You.)

To be obedient, so we can stay away from sin and death. (Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?)

To trust in Him, so we won't depend on our own cleverness. (Pro 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding.

To be children, in other words, and not "slaves" of law or even our own "spiritual duty" laws.

Jesus told the disciples He no longer called them servants, but friends, (John 15:15) because He let them in on what He was doing. God calls us children, because He has adopted those who are "born again" and therefore able to "see" His kingdom, His righteousness (His way of doing and being righteous--Amp Bible).

We don't demand of our children that they forsake food, speak to us in formal "dutiful" speech, nor do we tell them they must speak to us for an hour in the morning and another at night, etc. If we, being sinners, are able to love and cherish our children, and continue to do so even when they "sin" against us, how is it we suppose the One Who gave us His only Son could or would not do so?

So, on the one hand, we are not to "...trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead"(2 Cor 1:9), and on the other we are to "Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good." (Rom 12:9)

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:3)

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by curiousity
What else would one who believes Jesus to be the Incarnate Word of God quote? What "better" source would you want us to use?

You don't see any error in using a source to back it up?

You are in error, attempting to compare utilization of human "sources" and God's Word. Repeating what God said, and believing it to be true is wisdom. The Bible is hardly "a" source...it is THE source by which mortals can "see" and "know" God.

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (Col 1:16)

Originally posted by bobafett1972
This being said, Christians can be the most arrogant hypocritical people I have ever met in my 32 years on this planet. And to think I was once one of them..... Judge not less yea be judged yourself comes to mind a lot. Seems God was the only one supposed to be judging me, but I get judged everyday by supposed good Christians?....Practice what you preach is all I have to say.

I believe I detect a lot of hurt feelings in your post, and I am, like any other person with the mind of Christ (ie, Christian) sorry for that.

However, the verse you and 5 million or so other dislikers of Christians quote endlessly is actually "Judge not that ye be not judged" in Matt 7:1.

The word "judged" is said by the Greek Lexicon to mean "to separate, put asunder" and the like definitions, down to the 5th one which, (finally) is "to judge", yet even then with the connotation of pronouncing judgment, like a judge preparing to pass sentence. And in that sense, certainly only God can "judge" us.

But it seems you mean something else, since no human could actually "judge" you in that way, and that "something else" is, I venture, that you feel or have actually had someone tell you you are not doing something "right", and that is what you are calling being judged by them. (If that is not correct, I apologize, but I will continue here because I have had this conversation with many who despised Christians. )

I may not like having someone tell me I'm wrong in behavior or beliefs, but I cannot say they are "judging" me if they do, not and still base my objection on the Matt 7:1 verse (or other verses on the subject). Not and hold their statements as being "hypocritical".

To be hypocritical means one is "acting" or "dissembling", professing something they actually do not believe. So you cannot logically call a Christian a hypocrite, if they believe in Christianity and base statements on your behavior on the Scripture they profess to believe in. They may not truly understand the Scripture, but that is not hypocritical. They may even "twist" Scripture, due to wrong thinking or wrong teaching, but that doesn't make them "hypocritical", either.

It is sort of comical in a way, because I rarely see or hear people of other religions complaining about this sort of thing? I wonder why that is? Oh, wait, maybe it’s because they don't come off with the "Our way or the Hell way" sort of attitude.

People of other religions don't often complain of anti-religion bias? Must I point out that nearly every religion has complained of such agendas, including Islam and practicing Jews?

That having been said, Jesus Himself said in John 15:19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. " True, He didn't use the current buzz words, conspiracy and agenda, but it seems pretty clear that He knew whereof He spoke. He was killed for His beliefs after all.

As for "Our way or the 'low' way" attitude you cite, there are two points to be made: First, foremost, and wouldn't it be nice if someone like you finally heard this clearly?: "Our "way has NOTHING TO DO with your eternal destination. Yes, there are some people in certain denominations who tend to believe if "you're not with them you're doomed", but that has NOTHING TO DO with your eternal destination, either.

HOWEVER, Jesus said of Himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me". (John 14:6) and "He who believes in Him is not condemned (judged as in having sentence passed); but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

Now, grant me that a Christian is one who believes Jesus Christ to be the Incarnate Word of God, and that therefore, what He says of Himself is as if God had spoken it, what would you think such a one will tell others? That "Buddha will get you to heaven, it's ok"..that "Mohammed is equal to Jesus and therefore is God, also"? Or my personal most hated phrase, "all roads lead to Heaven"?

There are other beliefs than yours..... but if people would take others views on life and faith and religion into consideration we would all tend to get along a little better.......Your God isn't my God, but I am okay with this....

Mark 16:15 And He (Jesus) said to them (His followers), "Go into all the world and preach the gospel (good news of salvation thru His Name) to every creature." What "views and faith and religion", then, should we "take into consideration"? And finally, WHY? If I am not concerned about your eternal soul, it is easy to say "whatever road you take is fine". But if I'm a Christian and you are an unbeliever in Christ what shall I say? "Go on your merry way and 'be condemned'"?

Your God is most definitely not mine, and I'm NOT okay with it since I desire for "all men to be saved", because the love of God is "shed abroad" in my heart and His desires are mine. (1 Tim 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.)

Originally posted by curiousity

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by curiousity
What else would one who believes Jesus to be the Incarnate Word of God quote? What "better" source would you want us to use?

You don't see any error in using a source to back it up?

You are in error, attempting to compare utilization of human "sources" and God's Word. Repeating what God said, and believing it to be true is wisdom. The Bible is hardly "a" source...it is THE source by which mortals can "see" and "know" God.

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (Col 1:16)

The problem with this is it's circular logic and tantamount to me proving Islam with the Quran.

Originally posted by sinatracementshoes

Originally posted by curiousity

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by curiousity
What else would one who believes Jesus to be the Incarnate Word of God quote? What "better" source would you want us to use?

You don't see any error in using a source to back it up?

You are in error, attempting to compare utilization of human "sources" and God's Word. Repeating what God said, and believing it to be true is wisdom. The Bible is hardly "a" source...it is THE source by which mortals can "see" and "know" God.

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (Col 1:16)

The problem with this is it's circular logic and tantamount to me proving Islam with the Quran.

You're welcome to attempt it.

The Bible is not a work of God. Period. End of story. It is a series of stories written by man, complied by man, published by man, distributed by man and believed by man to be from God. God wrote none of it and Jesus (who may or may not have been a mortal man - depending on your beliefs) wrote none of it. The works of God are all around us in the air, sea, earth and stars. None of His work is published in books. Books are only inspired by His work.

As far as hypocrisy is concerned, it is not the sole possession of Christianity. In fact it is prevalent in all organized religions. The bottom-line here being that man to control others creates religions. You do not need a Church and a Priest to find a path to God. As was previously stated, that lies within.

To be hypocritical means one is "acting" or "dissembling", professing something they actually do not believe. So you cannot logically call a Christian a hypocrite, if they believe in Christianity and base statements on your behavior on the Scripture they profess to believe in.

The defination I found was: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion.

The label of hypocrite would not be given for their "statements on your (my) behavior on the Scripture they profess to believe in"(if I'm understanding what you mean there).... but, it would be given on the basis of their behavior compared to their stated beliefs.


And you could not tell whether they truly believe what they say they do, except to look at their actions, and see whether or not those actions support their stated beliefs.

For instance.....a man who goes to church regularly, even sings with a Christian group....lied to my father about the value of Grandfather's farm, and had actually sold it at a higher price than he claimed.......hypocrite or not?

....a man works for a company, manipulates the books so that he recieves a bonus on shoddy work, lies about quality and ship dates, causing other to take the blame when inconsistencies are found....goes to church regularlly and makes it a point to invite others to attend....hypocrite or not?

....a woman works in a nursing home, lies about the care given to some residents and misrepresents the costs and obligations of family, tricking them into paying unneccessary costs, but talks openly about her Christian faith.....hypocrite or not?

...a carpenter who puts one of those fish symbols in his ads, but does not finish the work he was paid to do.....hypocrite or not?

Originally posted by curiousity
You're welcome to attempt it.

The point was that you can't prove Chritianity any more with Biblical quotes, than a muslim could prove Islam with verses from the Quran.

[edit on 16-4-2005 by sinatracementshoes]

[edit on 16-4-2005 by sinatracementshoes]

Hello all!
Nice debatable thread here.
Personally i am totally with LadyV, and i especially love that first post i saw by Stalking Wolf.
Saint4God i definately respect from the posts i have seen you make, you are truly a worshipper of your God, and indeed follow that which you claim to follow, and i love you for that, just as i love anyone else who follows what they believe to the best of their ability.
However, here are some major factors i see in christianitythat i do not like at all, that im forced too present to you.
1.) Christians always seem to preach/believe that they are the only ones whom try to follow God, and those whom arent christians dont try to follow God at all. And this is of course not true at ALL, other ppl.(nonchristians) have their own Opinions about God! Just b/c a person doesnt follow the christians beliefs about God it doesnt mean they do NOT try to follow God! Sheeeesh!
2.) Constantly misjudging other religions, when they shouldnt be judging at all! For one, how many christians can people here name that they know have studied other religions beliefs, morals(yes other religions have morals as well! wow! amazing...sry, had to let that out), and opions about the divine. For one, christians dont even know much anything accurate about Judaism!!!!!! Let's take hell for example, theres never been such a thing as hell (as taught by christians) in Judaism(if my sources are correct, perhaps a jew might could confirm it), they do have a place called Sheol. It is rather known as a dark and gloomy place but not necessarily as that of one of punishment, burning fires of eternity, roasting flesh, and all the hate concievable to ones imagination into one miserable, painful, and lonely place. Hell was changed into a reality by church fathers in order to maintain a steady control over the minds of the people. It's sick, you can read about it anywhere, they would have people pay money to the church in order that they could reserve a place in heaven, or in order to lessen the load of a deceased relative who is supposed to be in hell.
Here's a wonderful christian site people can check out, its filled with lght and love, i assure you, well christiann love i guess.
www.fillthevoid.org...

Sorry if i got a little bit harsh for a minute there Saint4God, but christians need to have a higher acceptance of other peoples beliefs if they intend to have their hearts filled with love for all. Why all this Hell wishing?
Especially have a slight problem with the christians whom say that even if a person is rightouess, if theyre not a christian, theyre going to hell, such as the authors of that link above. Because i might add, the bible states in fact, that only Rightouess and true believers shall enter the kingdom of heaven, which means yes the buddha can go to heaven as well if the Jews/christians are right.
And seeing christians who jump up to defend their faith or to put down other religions as false without truly following their stated beliefs gets quite annoying to the observers, and it makes christians all look bad.
Wow, its really late now, lol, i might say more l8r, good night all!
Love and Light!
Best wishes,
Dani

why i lost all faith in church and christianity...

1. everyone can read a book and quote it. as well as understand it as they see fit. there is so much symbolism you can interpret any way you see fit. same as a horoscope.

most people don't follow the teachings or only follow the ones they see fit. they don't do # with their religion cept going to church once a week. as if that makes em get closer to any deity. especially when being a damn hypocrite and ignore everything and still do as you want yourself during the rest of the week.

2. i'm not stupid enough to follow like a damn sheep. especially when the sheppard is pretending to be something he's not. not quite a role model i want to follow.

3. christians are idiots. why? they don't even see or acknowledge certain gifts they are given. no instead the church calls you a demon. so i renowned everything that is related to christianity because such narrowmindedness is something i do not wish to be associated with. it was the last drop that made the bucket run over. i was through with the insults

4. a fairly large group of christians protest and get themselves involved in issues they got nothing to do with. just because it's blown out of proportion by the media they just jump in on the bandwagon. chiavo thingy was a clear excample of it.

5. christianity is not a religion that preaches peace. not unless you call 1500 years of war (similar to muslim jihad) a way of showing peace and compassion.

i'll think i stop now else i'll have a book full of reasons why not to follow any form of christianity.

i spit on any christian that says they're sorry. they don't mean it bunch of hypocritical f's. can't think for themselves and only quote from a book with stories which equal a dungeon and dragon's fantasy story.

besides spirituality is more important then religion. i embrace my gifts and i do as i say and aint no hypocrite.

as for arrogance, that's an american trait. just look at the american government interfering with the election of the next pope saying certain popes can't be elected no matter what. just stay the # out and let the people involved decide what's best.

imo there are only a few religions worth following...Judaism, budhism and even atheism.

[edit on 17-4-2005 by Enyalius]

Er, that was a bit Harsh.....but somewhat....uh true.

Originally posted by curiousity
You are in error, attempting to compare utilization of human "sources" and God's Word. Repeating what God said, and believing it to be true is wisdom. The Bible is hardly "a" source...it is THE source by which mortals can "see" and "know" God.

Yeah and i just saw the above posts by Curiosity, and others quoting the Bible as actually being their references. I will no longer post in this thread due to idiocy and ignorance of an opinion.
GROW UP, that is rediculous....
Dont tell somebody that theyre IN ERROR unless you can prove it by working some miracle!
(I apologize if ya'll are highly offended, but oh well...)
-Amadeus