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Lazar's descriptions matching General Twining's Roswell Report???

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posted on Mar, 7 2005 @ 10:35 AM
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In my readings I’ve found the following to be an interesting comparison. There is an alleged document of General Twining’s report to the president on Roswell, that actually describes the interior of the craft. Now, I must first mention that some UFOlogists believe the description of the roswell craft as more plane-like. The sources of that description are highly suspect (and largely discredited as witnesses), and actually do not coincide with the majority of other evidence and accounts. Likewise, the US Army made it clear it was a disc with their now infamous press release.


What’s interesting, is to compare it to Lazar’s rather dubious story.

Twining’s Air Accident Report for Roswell crash… 209.132.68.98...
As allegedly ordered by the president, July 9, 1947.

[Any of my insertions will be in brackets, other than (sic) comments]



“Upon examination of the interior of the craft, a compartment exhibiting a possible atomic engine was discovered. At least this is the opinion of Dr. Oppenheimer [Manhattan Project] and Dr. von Karman.


Lazar:



The interior of the disc is divided into three levels. The lower level is where the three gravity amplifiers and their wave guides are located. These are the integral components of the propulsion system that are used to amplify and focus the gravity A wave.


As we’ll see in Twining’s report, he also lists the lower level as containing the “engine” along with four (versus three) cavities for possibly the same function as the amplifiers in Lazar’s description.

Twining:



A possibility exists that parts of the craft itself comprises the propulsion system, thus allowing the reactor to function as a heat exchanger and permitting the storage of energy into a substance for later use. This may allow the converting of mass into energy, unlike the release of energy of our atomic bombs. The description of the power room is as follows:

1. A doughnut shaped tube approximately thity (sic) – five feet in diameter, made of what appears to be a plastic material, surrounding a central core (see sketch in TAB 1). [not provided] This tube was translucent, approximately one inch thick. The tube appeared to be filled with a clear substance, possibly a heavy water. A large rod center[illegible] inside the tube, was wrapped in a coil of what appears to be of copper material, ran through the circumference of the tube. This may be the reactor control mechanism or a storage battery. There were no moving parts discernable within the [illegible]

2. This activation of a (sic) electrical potential is believed to be the primary power to the reactor, though it is only a theory at present. Just how a heavy water functions in this environment is unknown.

3. Underneath the power plant, was discovered a ball turret, approximately ten feet in diameter. This turret was encompassed by a series of gears that has (sic) an unusual ratio not known of by any of our engineers. On the underside of the turret were four circular cavities, created with some smooth material not identified. These cavities are symmetrical but seem to be movable. Just how is not known. The movement of the turret coincides with the dome-shaped cupola compartment above the power room. It is believed that the main propulsion system is a bladeless turbine, similar to current development now underway at AMC [Air Materiel Command, I believe] and the Mogul [???] Project. A possible theory was devised by Dr. Angust Steinhoff (a Paperclip scientist), Dr. Warhner von Braun and Dr. Theodore von Karman as the craft moves through the air, it somehow drains the oxygen from the atmosphere and by an induction process, generates a (sic) atomic fusion reaction (see TAB 2). [not provided] The air outside the craft would be ionised(sic), thus propelling the craft forward. Coupled with the circular air foil for lift, the craft would presumably have an unlimited range and air speed. This may account for the reported absence of any noise and the apparent blue flame often associated with rapid acceleration. [from other sightings in the prior weeks since Arnold’s sighting]

4. On the deck of the power room there are what resembles typewriter keys, possibly reactor/powerplant controls. There were no conventional electronics nor wiring to be seen connecting these controls to the propulsion turret.


This is not identical to Lazar’s description, but is interestingly similar in concept. If genuine, the report is of course stating that their ideas are just theories as to how it works. Pay special attention to the mention of Mogul. Interestingly enough, if a hoaxed document, it is curious as to why this would be here, as Mogul is regarded as a balloon project. Could Mogul have been something completely different? Either the Mogul mention lends to discrediting the document, or it points to even a coverup within the coverup.

Twining:



There is a flight deck located inside the cupola section. It is round and domed at the top. The absence of canopy, observation windows/blisters, or any optical projection, lends support to the opinion that this craft is either guided by remote viewing [such as through external cameras, etc.] or is remotely controlled [such as from a mothership].

1. A semicircular [i.e. arch] photo-tube array (possibly television).

2. Crew compartments were hermetically sealed via a solidification process.

3. No weld marks, rivets, or soldered joints.

4. Craft components appear to be molded and pressed into a perfect fit.


Lazar:



The Center level of the disc also houses the control consoles and seats, both of which were too small and too low to the floor to be functional for adult human beings. The walls of the center level are all divided into archways. At one point in time, when the disc was energized, one of the archways became transparent and you could see the area outside of it just as if the archway was a window.


Lazar also states the absence of windows, but an arch-like viewing area (like Twining's suspected TV), no seams, and (in other sources than the ATS thread) a solidification process as to doors, etc. Likewise, Lazar described an ionization process on the outside of the ship.

The majestic documents team lists the document (Twining’s Report) in the “high confidence” category. They rate such documents on many criteria, and I’d suggest a visit to their site majesticdocuments.com... if you are unfamiliar with their goals, processes, etc. My big problem with it is the Mogul mention, as a project into a bladeless turbine. It makes me skeptical of the document, but then the Mogul balloon project is pretty flimsy as it is, and perhaps it really was a completely different project, and one that was then later incorporated into the ongoing reverse engineering project. Who knows?

Many may point to the reference of “television” and wonder if this was before tv. Well, maybe widespread use of it wasn’t common yet, but RCA was paying royalties to the inventor as early as ’39, so one can’t really use that point, so it would have been a fairly well known invention at the time.
Here’s a 1946 RCA tv, hehe…



The comparison is certainly not proof or anything, and there is still a lot going against Lazar. However, I did find the comparison of the two accounts very intriguing to say the least, and wanted to share it.







[edit on 7-3-2005 by Gazrok]

[edit on 7-3-2005 by Gazrok]

[edit on 7-3-2005 by Gazrok]




posted on Mar, 7 2005 @ 11:14 AM
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Thanks for the digging, I find it a worthwhile comparison.



posted on Mar, 7 2005 @ 12:31 PM
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Actually the General's report is rather interesting given it was 1947 and semiconductor technology was unknown at the time.

So he says:
"There were no conventional electronics nor wiring to be seen connecting these controls to the propulsion turret."

Of course not. He had a point of reference for the video screen since he had seen TV. And being a General and not a common citizen, I'm sure he was very familiar as to what a TV was. But in his time there was no reference for semiconductor technology. You wouldn't know it was there unless you had a microscope, or a powerful electron microscope for the really small stuff. In his day, you needed wires and vacuum tubes and what-not for all your electronics. He may have wondered where all the switches and knobs were, and the dials with needles. How would someone of that era, describe a modern laptop of today running windows or any of the other little gadgets we have?

I'm not surprised by the mention of seamless construction. The ship was probably manufactured much like modern prototyping is done today or even like semiconductor manufacturing. It's mostly all one piece constructed layer by layer. You might could say the ship is grown, but don't get corny and say like a plant.

The wall that becomes transparent is a no big deal. You can buy that for your house if you have the money. I'm sure its less sophisticated. Its a type of LCD technology. Turn the crystal one way with a signal and it becomes solid, change the signal to turn the crystal again and presto its transparent. But I'm sure these beings had something tougher than glass, but I'm willing to bet the technique was the same.

The crazy thing is, aside from the reactor core, we can duplicate most of the alien craft's technology today.

What gets me with Lazar is that supposedly I guess the ship had sort of power flowing through it, and if so, surely there would have been a few controls or screens lit up for use. And if they were on, were there any icons or symbols of merit? You know, couldn't he reproduce a few of those symbols? I know I wouldn't forget what they looked like. I'm sure people would say they were faked, but its that kind of absence of detail I look for.
He could have just coughed up the General's description as his own with some extra embellishment.



posted on Mar, 7 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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Nicely done, sir! This is a most interesting correllation of information.

With regards to Lazar... Wouldn't it be possible, in fact probable that the government would have the ability to "erase" Lazar's background in an effort to discredit him? Time and again people use the fact that Lazar was a "C" student in high school as evidence of the fact that Lazar could not be who he claims he is. To those distractors I offer this: Often times, intellectually gifted students who remain unchallenged by traditional canned high school coursework will channel their energies into "Other" avenues and will perform at a minimum in order to simply get by.

I for one, find Lazar to knowledgebale about many aspects of physics that would relate to interstellar space/time travel.



posted on Mar, 7 2005 @ 01:45 PM
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The crazy thing is, aside from the reactor core, we can duplicate most of the alien craft's technology today.


Yeah, HALF A CENTURY LATER...



And if they were on, were there any icons or symbols of merit? You know, couldn't he reproduce a few of those symbols?


Actually, if you buy the Testor Model kit of the "Sport Model" it contains a reproduction of the script that he saw there. He also explains that he was not permitted in that area of the ship for long (and I doubt he would have been allowed to take notes on the script), as his primary responsibility was the reactor.


Wouldn't it be possible, in fact probable that the government would have the ability to "erase" Lazar's background in an effort to discredit him?


Sure, but difficult. Regardless, the man did build a jet car from scratch, and does have the proof he worked for the Department of Naval Intelligence, even with a MAJ prefix on the coding numbers. Crackpot or unwitting info/disinfo agent? I'm still on the fence. My purpose in this post isn't to prove/disprove Lazar though, we've gone that route before here... I just wanted to point out this interesting corrollation of testimony, as in some cases it's downright eerie.

As for Lazar paraphrasing the General's report, the document surfaced in '94 I believe, so some time after Lazar went public. As far as I know, I've never seen the document compared or even raised much before in connection with Lazar's statements on the workings of the crafts....



posted on Mar, 7 2005 @ 02:20 PM
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Gazrok: the illegible guy is probably


The caliber of the technological spoils was indicated by the arrival in theater at the end of that month of a "special group of scientists" headed by Dr. Theodore von Karman, special consultant to the U.S. Army Air Forces' supreme command.


(quote from Nick Cook - The Hunt For Zero Point ... not much else about him in there)

this partially backs up my backup hypothesis re: lazar; if he's a real physicist he's going to great lengths to hide it (trust me on this, his public statements are awful on all things scientific) and the government (or other actors unknown) must have entirely cleared out his academic records and intimidated his academic colleagues into silence.

alternatively, the facts of his story / reputation are pretty consistent with something like this: lazar is an electrician of some sort, called in to area 51 to fix some stuff (basic wiring, etc...) and somehow or another winds up getting a bit of a tour and an explanation from someone who actually understands the physics lazar is selling. it's even possible they saw that lazar's a mechanically talented individual -- the jet car, etc -- and thought they might give him something to try figuring out (which fits his story if i recall right) and once he proved himself mostly worthless he was released as a disinfo agent, either witting or unwitting.



posted on Mar, 7 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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Yes, that's what I thought the Dr's name was, but didn't want to post it as such as I wasn't sure... Thanks for the clarification, as I meant to look at other sources for it...saved me the trouble.


alternatively, the facts of his story / reputation are pretty consistent with something like this: lazar is an electrician of some sort, called in to area 51 to fix some stuff (basic wiring, etc...) and somehow or another winds up getting a bit of a tour and an explanation from someone who actually understands the physics lazar is selling. it's even possible they saw that lazar's a mechanically talented individual -- the jet car, etc -- and thought they might give him something to try figuring out (which fits his story if i recall right) and once he proved himself mostly worthless he was released as a disinfo agent, either witting or unwitting.


I'll agree that I think Lazar lied about his educational background. I don't think the base is in the habit of pulling in outside (non-clearanced) contractors though, and even if that were the case, his tax form would be from the contracted company, not the DNI. From the tax form it appears he legitimately worked for the DNI for a period of days (though he claims it was longer than that, I can't imagine that pay for more than a few days, or he really got jipped). If he is sincere, I think he was brought in from a friend at EG&G / Los Alamos, and used as a disinfo agent as he'd be easy to discredit.

Most physicists do not support his theories or explanations. I guess we'll see how his little company does, and then we'll all know, huh?


(check the Lazar thread to see the new company link, as Lazar has bowed out of the ET crcuit and biz)....

Again though, didn't want to derail into is Lazar lying or not (already an ongoing thread there), just thought the comparison was eerie....


What gets me with Lazar is that supposedly I guess the ship had sort of power flowing through it, and if so, surely there would have been a few controls or screens lit up for use.


The explanation was that through the flight suit, the pilots directly interfaced with the ship, and in essence, became part of the circuitry...with the entire ship technically being the circuits, etc.

[edit on 7-3-2005 by Gazrok]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:45 AM
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Any other comments? Not about Lazar, but the accounts in general....

I've always liked this as they both (fact or fiction) are part of the handful of accounts actually describing the ship interiors....



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 05:00 PM
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I think the comparison is very cool. Im a true believer of the crash but Im interested in the authenticity of this report about the craft. Was it mostly intact when it crashed or do we have a number of these things hangin out?
Just new to the board and lookin foward to debating! I think Lazar saw something but maybe I trust people too much.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 06:11 PM
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you aint ever going to find the truth...you are too fixated on the little grey men in flying saucers routine.....a grown man as well...the guy found debris..everything else after that is fiction. Aliens are the real mis-info story



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 06:22 PM
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Gazrok: not I didn't have a whole lot to add besides a suggestion as to who the rubbed-out guy is. I think you're basically right here: whatever this guy's report is based off of seems enough like whatever Lazar claims to have seen as well to suggest they're sourced from the same place; whether that's info, disinfo, or something else entirely is yet to be determined.

Lazar's accounts + reputation have been discussed back and forth to such an extent that it's probably not productive to conclude much here beyond that his sources are probably similar to Twining's...the real thing this brings up is trying to figure out more about the valdity + provenance of the Twining report, since more information on that front will indirectly shed some more light on the Lazar stuff.

I will say, though, that if you haven't yet you ought to read that hunt for zero point book; I think the extent to which the approaches to antigrav + zero point discussed in that book mirror what's turned up in the better ufo research is quite uncanny...

Actually looking through again: how sure is Twining vis a vis the phototubes and semiconductor stuff? My suspicion is that the internal "electronics" on a ufo would probably be mostly fiber optics / optical circuitry, and I thought I'd read somewhere or other that the Roswell debris was supposed to have had fiber optics routed all through it.



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 06:49 PM
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So would the bladeless turbine be the same one referred to in the Tesla lore? Or could they be referring to the supposed nazi implosion engines?
It is very interesting that the descriptions do seem to be fairly close to each other.... Once again good work man!



posted on Mar, 11 2005 @ 06:58 PM
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Thanks for another interesting post Gazrok, keep 'em comin'. Someday you will have enough "info" to publish a book or paper yet.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 01:24 AM
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Interesting, i had never heard of oppenheimer having anything to do with roswell, although he, and his colleagues would be my choice to investigate,especially given their location in new mexico.



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 01:46 AM
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I have seen interviews with Bob Lazar. I am not to sure what to make of him....I am waffeling, to use a Bushism.
The things he claims are very interesting and astounding. His attempts at proving himself however are shadey indeed......but is that not the job of disinfo agents? To create as much question as possible? Maybe they are just doing a really great job, and if they killed him now it would be very suspiscious. So he is safe in a sense, IF IF its true.
However Bob Lazar could very well have reasearched this detail information at a prior time to his interview I am thinking, and just used it to his advantage.
As I said I am waffeling.


[edit on 12-3-2005 by theRiverGoddess]



posted on Mar, 12 2005 @ 11:06 PM
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I do agree that there are striking similarities to both descriptions. But, I find the descriptions by General Twining’s report less descriptive, and obviously from a person not familiar in engineering. For example:



3. Underneath the power plant, was discovered a ball turret, approximately ten feet in diameter. This turret was encompassed by a series of gears that has (sic) an unusual ratio not known of by any of our engineers.

Gear ratios can be whatever you design them to be, theres nothing UNUSUAL about them. Now if he said the CONFIGURATION was unusual. That would make more sense. There are several types of gears used, like reduction, worm and planetary gears. But ratios are just a matter of the number of teeth on each gear.

At the time this was reported, the propulsion was probably more of a mystery, so that would explain the following description.



It is believed that the main propulsion system is a bladeless turbine, similar to current development now underway at AMC [Air Materiel Command, I believe] and the Mogul [???] Project. A possible theory was devised by Dr. Angust Steinhoff (a Paperclip scientist), Dr. Warhner von Braun and Dr. Theodore von Karman as the craft moves through the air, it somehow drains the oxygen from the atmosphere and by an induction process, generates a (sic) atomic fusion reaction (see TAB 2).

This may be probable for a craft that flies within an atmosphere, but if it reached higher altitude, or space, it would no longer function if it operated on oxygen from the atmosphere.

The reference to Project Mogul does raise some questions. It was supposed to be high altitude balloons. You wouldn't need a bladeless turbine for that.


The general descriptions do have similarities, but there are differences. I could account the differences due to the probability they may not have been describing the same craft. (Taking into consideration more than one craft has been recovered.)

If you look at the various aircraft we have and include crafts since the invention of flight, if you asked someone to describe them, you probably would't get two descriptions even this close. There are bound to be descrepencies.

I actually find more convincing descriptions from Lazar's testimony on how the the craft operated. He gives description of different configurations of the gravity wave guides and no mention of a turbine. Some may question his credibility, but I doubt he is a disinfo agent. If he was, he is very good at it.



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 02:15 AM
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The parallels are interesting, but I would be careful about using Lazar as a reference.



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 04:07 AM
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I'm trying to understand where your coming from in the openning of your post up to and including Larzar's quote of his 3 level disc...The craft (not pieces found by Brazel) found the same day in Corona with the apparent porthole puncture and dead EBEs' was a v-shaped delta winged thingee with hexagonal honeycomb-like structure on the bottom.

A piece of the honeycomb structure was given to LM Howe in appx /95 by the great grandson of an Army man who was at the Corona site in /47. Also included was a copy of the pages of the Army man's account at the time which also included a clear description of the craft.

LM Howe had the material analysed and it consisted of micro layers of Bismuth and Magnesium. As we know Bismeth has very special reactions to EMF. DOW Chemical does not produce mirco layered Bismuth and Magnesium. Anyway there's a whole big story on this. Including a forensic drawing of the craft not discoid.

Lazar describes the craft he worked on 1989. I can't recall any mention by Robert of it being the same as anything to do with or liken to anything Twinning reported. I can't find anything where Lazar mentions Twinning or George Marshal or anything at all like a connection between what Robert worked on that wasn't post 1979.

Perhap's you can elaborate: Larzar - Brazel - Roswell to (Corona (actual craft))? Thanks..

Dallas



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 05:49 AM
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Interesting
I was especially interested in how the aliens "drive" the craft considering there's no windows or view screen.
If there is a link to a "mothership" or something like that, maybe that link gets inteferred with by our high powered radars and that's why alien craft crash?
If you remember that memo from the air force to the FBI director, it said discs had been recovered from new mexico and they think they crashed because of a high powered radar nearby



posted on Mar, 13 2005 @ 08:19 AM
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Whether or not it's the same exact craft isn't really the point.

The point is the similarities I mentioned, such as the general deck layout (i.e. engines underneath the main flight deck). The lack of windows (and use of some kind of arched viewscreen). The movable cavities/pylons to determine direction. An atomic like engine, etc.

Regardless of Lazar's credibility, or the lack of it, we've got two completely different sources that seem completely unconnected, describing similar details regarding the inside of an extra-terrestrial flying craft. Not touting it as gospel, merely pointing out the interesting correllation....



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