Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi

Originally posted by Fury
Oh like art and patriotisim is totally incompatable.

I think it IS incompatible. The Nation is something purely imaginary, it's only a little part of a human being's identity. Everything else is a psychotic delusion. And the "nation" being the subject of art is, in my opinion, an horrible perversion.

Ok, here's one to make you feel better,

Imagine you're a Spaniard Muslim sympathizer named Mokuhadzushi.

Imagine having 0 national pride.

imagine getting rolled over by nazi's by staying neutral.

imagine having nothing to do but admire the fact that in the ranking of countries, you're about... umm... 32.

Imagine getting insanely jealous of the fact that Americans have bigger, umm... bombs.

then imagine that you wake up every day and bitch about that fact on a website, so you can feel complete.

I admire your attempt at humour yet you are systematically resorting to what seems to be a pattern, given the posts in this thread : "oh he doesnt like our crappy inconsequential american poetry ? He must be jealous.Or part of an international antiamerican conspiracy." And this pattern speaks a long deal about ignorance

You see Moku, I appreciate your opinion....it is after all your right to that said opinion. What I didn't appreciate was your implications.

A piece of "art" is for many a "piece of art". But said "art" also has more than "face value"....simply for what you saw it for! "Art" has menaing....from a surface point of view to a "deeper" meaning or vision.

This "piece of art," as you so eloquently labeled as "melodramatic intelellectual crap" had meaning to those of 'us' that saw it for more than what it was. Thus my postings.

I respect your view, but I didn't respect is implications. It could have used better judgement of words. Thus my opinion.
Peace Moku.

regards
seekerof

I thought that was wonderful SW .

Moku I will tell you once again, stop with the insults and the childish rudeness. I don't care if you hate America,but don't go to childish insuls.

That goes for you too SW, you have been calmer than Moku but just ignore him.

Both of you stop insulting each other NOW.

Originally posted by Fury
Then obviously national pride never was a factor in any great art... like oh i dunno, the statue of liberty, mount rushmore, the washington monument?

These monuments are symbols of national pride, the wish for a better future and so on. These ideas do move people and can deserve symbolic representation. But they are more symbols than purely speaking art where the viewer seeks to identify himself.

The only "national art" you will find otherwise are commercial products or nineteenth century vomitables. Art is a fundamental expression of a human being. And expressing nationality or political views as fundamentally constituting the identity is simply incorrect and therefore delusional. The human being is much more than just his nationality.

That doesnt mean that i abhor SW's text as being part of what i label " national art". It isnt. It's flawed because of the underlying creational principles which, as i already said resort to complacency and romanticism. It's like crying instead of acting.

oh, then why are you hatin?

I just have an individual concept of taste.


Oh and JM,
get SW's gross insults into a translation website and then tell me i'm the only one getting a warning

[Edited on 9-7-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Tell me what languages they are in and I will do a check.

Fine now both of you have be warned for insulting each other. SW just dont think since I can't read Spanish or French you wont get a warning. I managed to translate your insults into English.

Hmm...accussing for lack of patriotism is becoming a tool of government propaganda.
Citizens should be aware of that and avoid unneccessary nationalism. Its destructive in the end.


[Edited on 9-7-2003 by Megaquad]

Originally posted by Megaquad
Hmm... lack of patriotism is becoming a tool of government propaganda.
Citizens should be aware of that and avoid unneccessary nationalism. Its destructive in the end.

[Edited on 9-7-2003 by Megaquad]

Other than 'ignorance', for which I don't see anyone being excluded, again the 'average' American is 'labeled by' the actions, deeds, and "propoganda" of our government? Hmmm.......

A true 'Patriotism' is something beyond government propoganda...its an 'identity' (for lack of better word) of said individual and his nationality. Being a 'proud american' has nothing to do with his/her governement or propoganda. I can be against my governments actions and majority of deeds and still 'patriotic'. 'Lack of Patriotism' may be a government 'tool' but it has nothing to do with real 'patriotism' and identity. There is nothing 'nationalistic about it.

I don't see 'nationalism' nor 'patriotism' as being exclusive to America.....they both encompass every nation and its people...across this of world.

Again, to stereotype an 'American' by his/her governments actions and deeds is false. And to further calssify 'patriotism' as a government 'tool' is also false. Patriotism is a individualistic identity and quality...no one is excluded nor are they classified as 'nationalistic' tendencies, per se'.

Bet on it....I'm a proud american.

regards
seekerof

Fury:
None of that justifies crimes you have committed.

As for aid and help, you really believe they are driven by something else than your interests? Then you don't understand how world works.
If truth is too scary for you, don't read it.

[Edited on 9-7-2003 by Megaquad]

what you wanna jump in here?
what if we started to think like terrorists?

basically the arabs attacked us on 9-11. so if we used that kind of thinking, we can go after thier civillian population and use all our firepower to return thier attack in kind.

I don't think any of you wants us to really bear down on you.

If you can't face facts, don't jump in. oh and the article he pointed out was aggression by the iraqis to the western journalists.

read.

Originally posted by Megaquad
Fury:
None of that justifies crimes you have committed.

As for aid and help, you really believe they are driven by something else than your interests? Then you don't understand how world works.
If truth is too scary for you, don't read it.

[Edited on 9-7-2003 by Megaquad]

What is your country?

My topic was hijacked, and maybe I overreacted, I apologize to ATS for my actions, not to the target of my anger.

why does the entire world question us daily, do they think their leaders are doing well for them?

Let's look a a few examples

Germany: Total lack of respect in the EU, fueding with France by exchanging 3rd grade insults at each other. Arrogant nationalists whom crap on every other country in Europe, total lack of respect for peoples dignity. Oh and they like David Hasselhoff of all people!

France: I am not even going here, it's too easy.

Spain: Dirt Broke, borrowing millions of dollars a week from the USA, haven for terrorists, weak armed forces, dependent on outside help to aid their failing economy.


See I can pick on all of your nations too, and I am doing this without siting specific examples. Unlike your news papers, the USA's press doesn't insult you everyday, we don't point out your mistakes, in fact we do more covering up of your issues then you possibly understand.

I guess, like my old baseball coach used to say:

"When you run in the front of the pack, everybody else is looking at your ass and telling the person behind him that is smells" e did not say it quite so cleanly.

With all respect for you Americans and non Americans, but I hate when someone tries to speak for others, pleace don't do that. Because you can't know what someone else think.

JM, please look at the start of the thread, you made a prejudice mistake, it was SW who started to insult M. I know that SW got a warning too, but please next time look better.

I quote:

posted on 9-7-2003 at 19:40 Post Number: 111066 quote report

Kiss my ass


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
melodramatic intellectual incest "oh we poor americans"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I have to hear your shoot everyday, so back off dickwad

end quote.

So what is wrong with M's opinion ? In the original post you can read that SW is talking to non Americans ???

I quote again:

Imagine your are an American

For the benefit of those who aren't:

End quote

So I think you should look better next time JM. Is it insulting when someone write "oh poor Americans" ? Well isn't that exact the impression the opening post is giving non Americans ? Like I've said sooo many times, non Americans don't know how it's like to be American, and Americans don't know how it's like to be non American. But it's not difficult to learn to respect eachother and to listen to eachother without getting agressive because you didn't like someone's opinion.

I don't like the American mentality either but I don't yell or insult Americans for that. I respect most peoples because I look at individuals, not at groups of peoples, I don't put labels on groups because they are all individuals thinking and feeling almost the same but still they are all unique. Respect is the most important thing in life ! I only think that some Americans always become very aggressive when someone post someting which they think is "anti-American"

If you are really honest you'd understand that not all Americans thinks and feel the same. I know enough alternative news website from Americans who would not Agree with you SW or any other "patriots" are you proud of America including them or excluding them ?

I love everything American, well almost everything, except for Bush and his clowns. I watch American movies, listen to American music, I have American clothes, eat at M.Donalds and Burger King, Kentucky Fried Chicken holy grail.., need I say more ? Yes I like a lot of American things, and I'm sad I still haven't been to America yet.

But that doesn't mean I don't have criticism towards some Americans and the American foreign policy...
What would you do if China and North Korea got so powerfull that they occupy America because they think America is an enemy of their freedom ?, Wouldn't you fight them ? Of course you would. Freedom above all right ? Well just remember that many others sharing this piece of earth together all want to be free and don't want any foregein troops "liberate" them.

So try to understand that non Americans feels oppressed by your view on things ! I live in Europe and I wont say where, because I've noticed that many judge others from where they are from and not for who they are or what they say.

But I will stop, this is very sad, sometimes some of you just resembles the outside world in here.

Originally posted by Mokuhadzushi
no, i mean .. if you really feel unhappy then do something about it instead of posting crappy patriotic poetry of the lowest quality. By the way, as an american you have currently nothing to be proud of.

[Edited on 9-7-2003 by Mokuhadzushi]

Hmm wise words Mokuhadzushi.

Perhaps the rest of the world should shut up about us and deal with THEIR own problems.

Like-wise I should think we can thus be saving the many tens of billions of dollars we send over seas a year, to put into a fund that allows all Americans one free Chocolate Sundae each week. Yeah...that's what I propose.

Sincerely,
no signature

[Edited on 11-7-2003 by FreeMason]

wow. this really is one continual stream of blinkered nationalistic crap.

indeed, we do often imagine we are american. we do often wish that we were born into a nation which, although built upon fair and just ideals, has warped into a cruel, cold imperialistic nation, brainwashing most of its citizens and doing far worse to many who are not american.

and as for Mokuhadzushi "ruining your topic", is it that he is tarnishing your beautifull and moving piece poetry by criticising (perfectly reasonably) the morales that you have explicitly made it clear you stand for.

so in conclusion, no-one is criticising anyone for being proud of their country. but how could one be more loyal to his country than to question a government that bears no resemblance to the ideas and morales set out by its founding fathers?

PS: yeah im from england, which is arguably no better, but i dont make posts called "imagine you were english", so no need to bring up that argument.

regards
seekerof

But where did you get the idea from his original post that this was the case?

and as for Mokuhadzushi "ruining your topic", is it that he is tarnishing your beautifull and moving piece poetry by criticising (perfectly reasonably) the morales that you have explicitly made it clear you stand for.

If you want to bash America for the sake of bashing then feel free to do so. Why do you insist on bashing someone because they try to explain the way the majority of Americans feel on a daily basis? I didn't see anything at all in this post that said Shining Wizard was an avid supporter of the current administration. As a matter of fact I seem to remember...ah yes here it is

You wonder who is going to run against Bush this year, and if it's even worth it.

So once again, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?!?!?!?!?
With all of this fecal matter coming from europe I don't blame the ghoul Rumsfeld for getting fed up with your lot. I would rather have the Ukraine as an ally these days.

the administration and their actions are for the most part what the outside world judge america on. so whether or not out friend with the rose sunglasses on believes in or supports the current administration he is claiming to be proud of his nation. so allow us to criticise it (in its current state).

And you do NOT have it hard, you do NOT know suffering or hunger, once again neither do I but you didnt see me make the first post.

I am also not only responding to the original post but also all of shining wizards arrogant narrow minded follow ups.

I'm quite sure you Americans have it as "hard as us". Us being who? Western and Central Europeans? who for the most part still live in a democracy, still have freedom of speech and can still log on to websites and post what they wish.

or do you refer to the iraqi civilians in the world? "bashing" a country who has already once forsaken them, although no doubt the country has rectified this by helping to rebuild the country, putting administrations in place who will allow the people to reap the profits of the natural resources in their country.

perhaps you refer to the often bullied people who sit in "your own backyard" know as south america?

Who EXACTLY is it who is casting these brutal and unjust stones of criticism towards the american people?

wow you really do have it hard, you mean you cant afford a new car? well at least the old one will run on the oil tainted with the blood of those you crushed to obtain it.

and indeed, shining wizards closing statement really does epitomise the american way does it not?

"we will FIGHT through this, we always do".

yes its true, when you are in economic recession, when world opinion is turned against your imperialistic and cold-hearted government, when your current president is by all definition sitting in power illegaly, when you opress all those not of true, white, protestant background you do always redeem yourself and bring into play some new, fair and economically sound way of rectifying your country.....

oh hang on....

Its is truly amazing how many people can look only at today's events to judge a country...truly sad.

"Our Imperialistic ways"....huh....ok. Perhaps your countries next on the list for "removal"?!?

Funny how "Imperialistic" is used to describe the current America. Wasn't it ages ago that the Europeans called it "Empire"....oh, how so many forget....

"People often condemn the bad more vigoriously verses remembering the much good that was done.......oh, how the world we live in works...."

*edit* added "it"

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 11-7-2003 by Seekerof]

so your principal argument is that over a hundred years ago (before WW1 afforded your country the status of most powerful in the world) europe was imperialist aswell?

ok... accepted.

so anyway back to the present......