We have not abandoned the Kurds

a reply to: sybdragon

. I would not be surprised to see it look like Iraq or S. Africa in a few years. Sad to say.

Eastern Europe is harder to take down. I don't see Europe becoming like S. Africa but a massive civil unrest is no doubt is in the near the future.

I don't think Europeans will tolerate this invasion.

a reply to: ChefFox

I don't know.... I mean, the USA has some #holes but those are all in democrat districts due to their policies. There are a lot of illegals in their sanctuary areas. And parts of them look like the countries these people came from. I have seen articles and such where the rape has skyrocketed in some countries and girls are afraid to go out night, no go zones of Muslims where even the police don't go. At least the police do go into gang ridden areas in the USA and so do emergency vehicles and such but not in some EU countries.

Notre Dame was not an accident IMO. And London is not English anymore. I think the Europeans that have allowed too many people in are toast. It's a fact that once the population of Muslims gets around 10% or so, and really any group, that group can cause change. Much less around 20% or so which I understand some EU countries have already. Ask India and Indonesia and some others how fast they became Islamic once the Muslims moved in. I think there are too many already and it's a done deal.

With these ISIS people coming back with no control over them, the EU is toast. And attacks tend to make the place look disgusting and messes up infrastructure which costs money and time to repair, replace or anything. I don't think the EU can afford much anymore but to support their leeches they allowed in. These people will freak out when their money is taken away and how many of them work? I hear tell not many of them. And they are not even trying to find work or anything. Useless.

Already the EU is allowing the Africans to ruin the place with their tent cities and such. Over here, it's Americans that are doing that, not people that do not relate to the society and don't care about it. Even the illegals come here for work and money, not free handouts even though they do take free handouts. Trump put a stop to that and many of them don't take it anymore. The EU is stilling handing them people money. When the bribe money stops, so does the civility of these people.

I mean, I don't see people here burning cars and such. Over in the EU, this seems to be a trend. That's what they do in S. Africa. Burn the place down. Eventually, all the taxpayers are going to leave just like they are doing now. Those that can get out are getting out and moving to other areas. People from Eastern Europe are going home because of all these "refugees". When all the taxpayer leave, where is the money going to come from to fix things? Pay the bribe to these freeloaders so they will behave? I don't see this ending well for the EU. If the women are scared to go out shopping and such, how are they going to help support their families? The female doctors and nurses can not work on a Muslim man and eventually even they will not be safe in the hospitals. They are not covered like crows.

Since the EU is saying they are not having babies, what are they going to do when half the work force quits because they are scared to go out? I'm not there so I don't know how accurate these reports are but if they are even half correct, Europe is toast. The Crusades were for nothing. The ancestors of the Crusades allowed the Muslim horde to invade them. Sad to see.

a reply to: sybdragon

1) the “Kuwaiti/Iraqi spat” was almost 30 years ago.

2) the Halabja attack was over 30 years ago.

3) the Halabja attack took place before we sent people in to help the Kurds and put a no-fly zone over their heads, so I’m confused as to how you’re seeing that as an abandonment by the US of the Kurds. It wasn’t because we pulled out of the area that the Iraqis and Iranians used the Kurds as punching bags.

a reply to: Mach2

Should the US go in, guns blazing in those situations too?

No, you didn't have to do a damn thing, except keep in place whatever token # of troops were there, the Turks were not going to attack whilst U.S. forces were there.

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: Mach2

Should the US go in, guns blazing in those situations too?

No, you didn't have to do a damn thing, except keep in place whatever token # of troops were there, the Turks were not going to attack whilst U.S. forces were there.

Well, as long as you're sure, that's good enough for me.

a reply to: Mach2
Seemed to be working..no?

a reply to: Shamrock6

That long ago huh? Wow. Sorry about that. I use 20 years a lot when it's 20 or more years old.

It was a long time ago but I seem to remember the USA told the Kurds to rise up against Saddam and make it a second front in the war between Iraq and Kuwait. I don't think we should have been there either. Kuwait was part of Iraq once and that was their problem to me but I guess the big money didn't see it that way or they wanted to not have Saddam take all that oil money or something.

The Kurds were gassed after that if I remember correctly. The entire world condemned it but nothing came of it. And maybe the USA put the no fly zone on them after it but it was because the Kurds rebelled and opened a front on Iraq's flank. The ones in that swamp down there, forget their name, they also rose up and Saddam drained that entire area and killed off an ecosystem that has been there for generations. There were consequences for their uprising. And this all happened around the time of Kuwait.

I thought we should never have gone over there and I haven't changed my mind about that. I don't want us there and any excuse is a good enough excuse for me to pull out of that entire area. Allies or not. But I don't have the info the government does so.... I still don't trust anyone over there. None of them are our allies if you ask me. It's all just greed and money. And I ain't getting any of the money.

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: Mach2
Seemed to be working..no?

Just exactly how long would you have liked the US to stay in that position? Forever is not realistic. Until the hatred disapates is not realistic.

We were in a sovereign nation, uninvited, on the pretence of fighting ISIS terroriats, not in support of nation building for Kurdish independence.

I'll say it one more time. If either NATO, or the UN can form a coalition in support of the Kurds, then I will consider being part of that solution. Otherwise I'm out of the policeman business, when there are zero national interest implications.

Now, you can argue that ISIS will reemerge if we leave, but I think Turkey and Syria will stop that from occuring because neither of them really want the US to come back, because if we have to go back, it will be hard and fast.

a reply to: sybdragon

The Kurds were gassed in 1988. The gulf war was years later. The no-fly zones were put in place after the war to protect the Kurds and Shiites because they helped coalition forces. This is literally recorded history. You are incorrect about when they were gassed and why.

a reply to: Shamrock6

OK. I just remembered it happened. I was shocked when it happened. Sometimes, things get mixed up in my brain these days due to a head injury and it was so long ago now... Seems to all run together. I am tired of the ME. Very tired of it.

a reply to: sybdragon

Understood. It’s a quagmire. Short of vital national interests, I don’t see any reason for troops to go anywhere, Middle East or otherwise. How most people define vital national interests and TPTB define them are vastly different, though, and our troops will continue to be sent places most of us see no reason to send them. That was the crux of my entire point: the next time we show up somewhere trying to be the good guys, you can bet your bottom dollar somebody will ask our troops about the time we left the Kurds and Turkey went on the attack within hours. Doesn’t mean I’m against pulling out of there, just means I’m not unaware of the potential problems it creates.

a reply to: Shamrock6

I am so hoping that the USA doesn't go in anywhere that they even have to get asked that question. I am sorry for the troops that will have to answer for this. My Dad was a lifer USAF. I grew up a military brat. I remember my Dad disappearing when he was called. It was a long time ago now and Dad is dead but the memory remains.

We have abandoned the Kurds. So much so that they are turning to Russia for help.

I need to know if u are capable of protecting my people, stopping these bombs falling on us or not... If not, I need to make a deal w/Russia & regime now & invite their planes to protect this region

LINK

originally posted by: Gorgonite
We have abandoned the Kurds. So much so that they are turning to Russia for help.

I need to know if u are capable of protecting my people, stopping these bombs falling on us or not... If not, I need to make a deal w/Russia & regime now & invite their planes to protect this region

LINK

Don't worry, it's just 3d tiddlywinks..there is a master plan us mere mortals cannot even conceive !

originally posted by: Gorgonite
We have abandoned the Kurds. So much so that they are turning to Russia for help.

I need to know if u are capable of protecting my people, stopping these bombs falling on us or not... If not, I need to make a deal w/Russia & regime now & invite their planes to protect this region

LINK

We sold them out because Turkey was mad they couldn't kill Kurds while we were there and were going to buy weapons from Russia instead of the US MIC. F-35s are big ticket items.

a reply to: Mach2

Just exactly how long would you have liked the US to stay in that position? Forever is not realistic. Until the hatred disapates is not realistic.

At the core of it, I agree..to some degree. But, all that appears to have happened is some token troops were moved aside, not out of Syria/ME, so the Turks could do what they wanted to the Kurds. I get it's a quagmire, but this move is as shady as f__k.

And to boot, 3,000 troops to SA, not sounding like this is about getting any troops out of the ME.

I'm confused about this "Kurds" issue.

I thought the U.S. went to Syria to defeat ISIS.

Did we take Kurd fighters with us, and then abandon them there, after ISIS was defeated?

Or, were the Kurds there already?

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: Mach2

Just exactly how long would you have liked the US to stay in that position? Forever is not realistic. Until the hatred disapates is not realistic.

At the core of it, I agree..to some degree. But, all that appears to have happened is some token troops were moved aside, not out of Syria/ME, so the Turks could do what they wanted to the Kurds. I get it's a quagmire, but this move is as shady as f__k.

And to boot, 3,000 troops to SA, not sounding like this is about getting any troops out of the ME.

If you "agree" that nothing would have changed the "core" problem, the the timing is moot. Sounds like you are more against the move because Trump made it, than tge move itself. If that's the case, just admit, and stop pretending there was a better way to extract our troops from the area.

This is going on two days for this subject and my question about how/when, and I've yet to get a direct answer. At least you responded, but it surey wasn't a direct answer about how anytging would change in the foreseeable future. Just more "I don't like it".

originally posted by: carewemust
I'm confused about this "Kurds" issue.

I thought the U.S. went to Syria to defeat ISIS.

Did we take Kurd fighters with us, and then abandon them there, after ISIS was defeated?

Or, were the Kurds there already?

The Kurds did most of the actual fighting against ISIS. The US provided them with arms and intelligence. Over 10,000 Kurds died defeating an enemy of the USA.

The US only had 100 troops in the area. We were training the Kurds and guarding ISIS prisoners. There was no active fighting at all.

Now with very little warning, we stepped aside to allow Turkey to destroy them. Yay us! Trump could have easily given our allies a week of warning to evacuate the women and children, but no, it had to happen immediately. The blood of those people are on his hands. If you support this move the blood is on your hands too.

I voted for him, so the blood is on my hands as well. I am ashamed for our country. This is not how the best country in the world is supposed to act.

originally posted by: Mach2

originally posted by: vonclod
a reply to: Mach2
Seemed to be working..no?

Just exactly how long would you have liked the US to stay in that position? Forever is not realistic. Until the hatred disapates is not realistic.

We were in a sovereign nation, uninvited, on the pretence of fighting ISIS terroriats, not in support of nation building for Kurdish independence.

I'll say it one more time. If either NATO, or the UN can form a coalition in support of the Kurds, then I will consider being part of that solution. Otherwise I'm out of the policeman business, when there are zero national interest implications.

Now, you can argue that ISIS will reemerge if we leave, but I think Turkey and Syria will stop that from occuring because neither of them really want the US to come back, because if we have to go back, it will be hard and fast.

The troops are still there....... Do you not even pay attention to the news? They haven’t gone home. There is no plans to bring them home either. You are buying into the Trump bull#.

Trump simply moved the troops to allow Turkey to invade. Trump has not brought any troops home. So why are ok with him stepping aside to allow for this massacre? Why didn’t he give our allies a week to evacuate the women and children?

Plus, this whole line about stopping endless wars is designed directly for the people who believe every word that comes from Trump. He just sent 2800 troops to defend Saudi Arabia for gods sake.

You should be pissed. Trump thinks his followers don’t have the brain capacity to see through his obvious lies. Are you angry at being manipulated or are you happy to be a useful idiot to Donald Trump.

Those are your options.