Let's Make Things Clear

Time and time again, on this forum and elsewhere I go and read, I see people claim complete and total ignorance of the American law and take an almost military like stance that others HAVE TO explain to them how the law works, or somehow in the absence of their understanding the law breaks down and doesn't apply. We know this is child like behavior and ignorance is no excuse, so I will do my part and list the currently known crime the president is being investigated for.

I am listing the original letter of warning from the Federal Election Commission that it is a crime to ask for anything in a US election from a foreign national, I am posting a link to the clause in our law covering what is being discussed and I will post the body of the text so it can be easily seen. I will also change my forum signature to include this quote and the code reference so anyone who sees me post can always find it easily.

This should hopefully prevent people from pretending they don't know what they're talking about and shows them exactly what law the president is being investigated for allegedly having broken. Remember, these are all allegations and everyone is innocent until proven guilty in America. An investigation is the only way to get to the bottom of it, and an investigation into a sitting president is called an impeachment inquiry. It does not mean he is getting impeached, it just means he is getting investigated for allegations of a crime.

This crime:

FEC Commissioner

It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept, or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a US election.

52 U.S. Code § 30121. Contributions and donations by foreign nationals

(a) Prohibition It shall be unlawful for—

(1) a foreign national, directly or indirectly, to make—

(A) a contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or to make an express or implied promise to make a contribution or donation, in connection with a Federal, State, or local election;

(B) a contribution or donation to a committee of a political party; or

(C) an expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement for an electioneering communication (within the meaning of section 30104(f)(3) of this title); or

(2) a person to solicit, accept, or receive a contribution or donation described in subparagraph (A) or (B) of paragraph (1) from a foreign national.

(b) “Foreign national” defined As used in this section, the term “foreign national” means—

(1) a foreign principal, as such term is defined by section 611(b) of title 22, except that the term “foreign national” shall not include any individual who is a citizen of the United States; or

(2) an individual who is not a citizen of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 1101(a)(22) of title 8) and who is not lawfully admitted for permanent residence, as defined by section 1101(a)(20) of title 8.

Once again, these are allegations of a crime but there is enough evidence that that president and his cabinet members may have been involved in this conspiracy to commit a crime that no options are left in our legal system but to investigate. It's literally the American way.

I hope this clears things up a little for those who have remained ignorant of the law through these proceedings and keep asking what crime has been committed.

a reply to: Oraculi

evidence that that president and his cabinet members may have been involved in this conspiracy to commit a crime

What if there is a conspiracy to solve a crime?

a reply to: Oraculi

time.com...

Justice Department Says Trump's Ukraine Call Doesn't Constitute Campaign Finance Violation

nope
not a violation

Prosecutors from the Justice Department reviewed a rough transcript of the call and determined the president did not violate campaign finance law.

I hope this clears things up.

If Biden was part of corruption as a government official then it wouldn't be in connection with an election it'd be in connection with his breaking of laws and government policies. Just because you make a run for POTUS does not make you immune from investigation. Also it would be part if the presidents constitutionally granted power to negotiate with foreign leaders so no law can over step or negate that power except for a constitutional amendment...which I haven't found yet but feel free to show me.

a reply to: Oraculi

Information is not seen as a thing of value to the FEC.

So your entire OP doesn't matter.

That just made it more confusing.

a reply to: Oraculi

Don't worry, Hillary Clinton, the DNC, Fusion GPS and the FBI, are about to be exposed for doing what you described in your opening post.

The end result will be worth the patience.

It won't matter, because Trump was investigating a crime on Biden. That's all the supporters need to hear. Just like when Hillary was his opponent. She's probably behind bars now, if it wasn't for that tricky deep state that keeps getting away with everything. Except getting rid of Trump, who will continue to expose all the criminals and traitors, he keeps throwing under the bus.

So you are telling me the president - whose job it is to prevent foreign interference with our government cant ask to investigate whether Joe Biden is compromised by Ukrainians?

So if he were to become president and be a tool of the Ukranian government that is something we should just ignore.

We should also ignore that a Billion dollars plus of US tax payer money just disappeared in a Russian oligarchs bank - the same oligarch who owns Burisma who was paying Hunter Biden.

What you are saying is if corruption happens in another country by a US politician the president - whose main job is to talk to foreign leaders should be forbidden from talking about it if that person is running for office.

By the way do you know Clinton has already been caught having done the same thing with Tony Blair - but nobody even cared.

There are tons of laws on the books that aren't enforced unless they are broken in an extreme way - this is one of those.

By the way let me point something out - would you know about this potential investigation if the whistleblower had not come forward? Was Trump talking about Bidens corruption in the press before? How do you know anything would have ever come of this? You don't. This is a setup looking for some excuse no matter how flimsy to go after Trump.

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: Oraculi

time.com...

Justice Department Says Trump's Ukraine Call Doesn't Constitute Campaign Finance Violation

nope
not a violation

Prosecutors from the Justice Department reviewed a rough transcript of the call and determined the president did not violate campaign finance law.

I hope this clears things up.

Ahhh another misunderstanding of the law. Let me clear it up.

The Justice Department does not prosecute the president, in fact no law enforcement organization can prosecute the president. The US Constitution makes it clear that ONLY the Congress has the power to investigate AND to prosecute the president of the United States.

It makes no difference what the Justice Department says whether it's a crime or not, they are outside of their element and their jurisdiction.

Impeach then cowards.

a reply to: Oraculi

Well, then. If it's so clear, they should be holding a vote of the House to push forward with articles of impeachment, right?

Since they haven't done that, they must be a lot less smart than you to have figured this high crime and misdemeanor out.

a reply to: Oraculi

Glad to see you are back...hope your health is okay.

I hope this thread will give us some good discussion from both sides without the usual suspects showing up to derail the thread.

I find it odd that the direction of this whole impeachmemt keeps changing. It started with a simple phonecall and a clear reason to start an impeachmemt procedure..

Now we got everybody pointing fingers in every direction. Pelosi, Hunter, Hillary, Obama, Schiff...I believe they all have skeletons in their closet but somehow it doesn't change what Trump did.

To be fair, it's kind of weird that it isn't put up for a vote in the house and I would really love to know why that is...

Peace

a reply to: watchitburn

Mudpit?

Come on...let's raise the quality a little. If anybody knowns what a civil conversation is it's you....

Peace

a reply to: Oraculi

It makes no difference what the Justice Department says whether it's a crime or not, they are outside of their element and their jurisdiction.

www.allgov.com...

The Department of Justice (DOJ) enforces federal laws, prevents crime, protects the public’s safety from all threats, including terrorism, and operates the federal prison system.

seems they were just doing their job
subject matter experts you know

Prosecutors from the Justice Department reviewed a rough transcript of the call and determined the president did not violate campaign finance law.

so experts say no crime;
partisan elected officials that are not subject matter experts say?

go ahead and try to sell it as a high crime or misdemeanor when the cops say is is not

expose the pure partisan nature of this event
please

a reply to: Oraculi

Too bad there's no evidence of quid pro quo. Or relation to the election for that matter...

And it should be noted the Ukrainians brought up former Mayor Giuliani.

a reply to: operation mindcrime

To be fair, it's kind of weird that it isn't put up for a vote in the house and I would really love to know why that is...

you
me
and Congressional Rep Green, who has 3 times forwarded a resolution to impeach trump, would like to know

strange isn't it?

a reply to: operation mindcrime

Well I posed a rebuttal to the OP earlier that I felt was thought was not really partisan as much as trying to use the actual laws to form said opinion. My rebuttal, however thus far has been ignored. I am happy to have a conversation that doesn't involve political cheerleading from either side!

a reply to: Oraculi

Totality of circumstances.

For the sake of this argument, I will presume that the FEC would actually consider truth and knowledge something illegal for these purposes (and that's a big presumption).

But here's the thing: one would have to prove that Trump was using the information solely for his campaign, and NOT doing his JOB for the American people. Because it is in fact Trump's job to enforce the law, to conduct diplomatic foreign relations, and to fulfill standing treaties -- one of which is with Ukraine to investigate and prosecute criminal corruption.

So unless and until one could prove that Trump conducted this business totally and completely through campaign channels and not via government channels, there is nothing to prosecute.

But in fact and in deed, Trump did involve the Attorney General in the process, therefore Trump did go through government channels. So while this might benefit Trump if an investigation shows wrongdoing on Biden's part, it would be incidental, not intentional. No corruption -- just the president doing his job.

By all means let the proper authorities conduct a full and complete and transparent investigation... including Biden and son, and anyone and everyone involved. Give We The People the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, and we'll figure it out. And the chips will fall where they may.

But right now all I see is desperate stinking critters trying to frame a duly elected president for made-up crimes in order to shut down a legitimate investigation into massive criminal corruption by the 2nd highest elected official of the land.