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A little clarification requested.

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posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:20 PM
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I'm rather new to this board. In my short time here I have noticed that a majority here seems to believe that President Trump should NOT be impeached or even investigated for his actions into Ukraine. To be completely transparent, I find the evidence released thus far to be extremely troubling.

I would prefer that this thread NOT devolve into name-calling. I honestly want to know why you still support Trump in light of the current evidence.

To summarize briefly why I believe his actions rise to the level of impeachment:


  • Multiple whistleblowers have come forward regarding this single event. The new whistleblowers have first-hand information
  • In the transcript, President Zelensky asks about buying more weapons and Trump responds "I need you to do me a favor though" and then proceeds to ask him to investigate two conspiracy theories (Crowdstrike and Biden) with his personal attorney.
  • This mixing of official office and personal politics is something generally only seen in autocratic governments.
  • Trump states he only asked for this investigation because he was concerned about corruption. Yet, there isn't an official investigation opened by the DOJ and he cannot provide any other examples of asking other governments to investigate corruption outside his political opponents.
  • There are now text-messages that show multiple officials appointed by Trump had concerns Trump was using Defense aid as leverage for an investigation into a political opponent.
  • Other Trump-appointed officials have called the whistleblower complaints credible and urgent.
  • Trump has not provided a single shred of evidence to back up his side of the story. He has instead shifted to attacking his investigators. He even attempted to normalize this behavior by asking China to investigate the Bidens, which he is now is saying is a joke.
  • In addition to not producing any evidence, Trump is stone-walling anyone from testifying who could clear him of wrongdoing.


I could go on, but you get the gist. Our country was built upon checks and balances. The Republican platform literally states that their entire value structure is built upon the separation of powers and checks and balances. If these charges are true, Trump's action would effectively give the presidency powers the founding fathers expressly wanted to avoid. If true, these actions are totally opposed to the Constitution of our country.

My question to the Trump supporters is why do you NOT think this is a serious concern? To be clear I'm not really looking for pure opinions. I'm looking for you to tell me the facts behind why you don't think this is a big deal. What facts do you know, that I don't which prove it's ok for President Trump to act as he has been.

Again, I'm not looking for a fight, just the facts behind why you feel the way you do. Please provide me with links to your source material so that I can read up. Thank you in advance.




posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:28 PM
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a reply to: Gorgonite


I'm rather new to this board. In my short time here I have noticed that a majority here seems to believe that President Trump should NOT be impeached or even investigated for his actions into Ukraine.

You mean reading between the lines of the transcript to grab that last straw? Can you at least give us that evidence you were talking about before?

Then we maybe can speak about the treaty your Country has with the Ukraine. I know a bit about the whole thing because there is some dirt my country is involved, too.



+7 more 
posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:35 PM
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I support any President who is not a war monger.
I like a good economy and low unemployment.
I like less regulations and bureacracy.
I like to keep more of the money I earn, ie. tax cuts
I like that Trump passed "Right to Try" law. If Obama had passed such a law, my sister might still be alive today.
I like that he got rid of the "individual mandate" part of the ACA. People should not have to pay a fine for not being able to afford the lousy ACA health plan.
I like that he actually wants to do something about illegal immigration.
I like the wall.
I like his tweets.
I like that he isn't part of the DC political class
I like that both R's and D's hate him - shows me he isn't one of them. And it is "them" who I despise the most.
I like that he doesn't put up with anyone's #. Why should he?
I like that he is fixing the unfair trade deals that the idiots have put in place and sold out our country and it's people.
I like that he has allowed US to become a net exporter of energy.
I like that he got us out of TPP.
I like that he got us out of the Iran deal.
I like that he wants out of Syria and Afghanistan. Keep it up, get us out of the mideast, we don't need them.
I like that he is a strong supporter of Israel.
I like that he keeps his promises to the best of his ability despite the Dems and even some Repub's obstruction and inability to let the man have a "win".

I DON'T see anything that you listed as potential crimes, just a bunch of made up crimes to make the lame brained buy the lie that the guy is a criminal and will be removed from office.



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:35 PM
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a reply to: Gorgonite

For a perfect call, the Trump administration sure isn't treating it like one.



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:36 PM
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a reply to: toolgal462

None of that has anything to do with what the OP asked. What facts back up what you believe about the Ukraine phone call?



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:37 PM
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a reply to: Gorgonite

you seem to have not read the transcript but believe what some other outlet wants you to believe. I suggest reading the transript in it's entirety, then come back and see if what you stated, it what really happened.

With the transcript out, the whistle blower stuff isn't anything but crying. We know EXACTLY what was said.

it was not something I would have wanted Trump to say or ask for, but he did. I'd have rather had Barr go looking for the facts and Trump not bothering with that investigation. The one that has been going for a while now. The one John Durham is involved in. Perhaps you have heard of it?



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:37 PM
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a reply to: Gorgonite

May I ask if Trump had come out with the Ukraine info a year ago before sleepy Joe announced his running for pres would you still have a problem with him looking into corruption? Is it ok for Trump to look into the corruption of SanFrans son?



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:41 PM
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originally posted by: underwerks
a reply to: toolgal462

None of that has anything to do with what the OP asked. What facts back up what you believe about the Ukraine phone call?


Really? Do you have comprehension issues perchance? The OP wants to know why I support Trump and why I am not concerned with the potential "crimes" he has been accused of.

I very plainly answered both of those things.

eta: God forbid I actually support a President for things he has actually accomplished that make my life and the world a better place instead of hating him because he is orange and allegedly says mean things that hurt lefties feelings.... Far more important to investigate him over anything and everything.
edit on 8-10-2019 by toolgal462 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:43 PM
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I'd say the membership of this board is diverse. There are those who think President Trump should not be investigated or impeached and those that do. The arguments for each are numerous and not always the same. Just like the country, the members on ATS are split on the issue.

I do understand that its often the case to see ones opostion as more numerous than one's allies; its human nature to be preoccupied with the negative over focusing on the positive. So it makes sense that you, who are deeply troubled by the Presidents actions, see a lot of opposition to your views on ATS. But don't worry there are plenty of members who do agree with you.


Now here's why I do not agree with you; Our country was built upon checks and balances ... who checks an out of control Congress who has accomplished noting the last three years but continue partisan bickering?

Also for the last three years the Democrats have been manufacturing constitutional crisis after constitutional crisis. All of their evidence has been sercomstantal and require spin and interpretation to pin charges on the president... there has been not a single "smoking gun"

So while I respect the fact that you look at the latest charges and the sercomstantal evidence and that it troubles you; I look at it and have become sick and tired of the dog and pony show.

If he should be impeached than the Democrats should do it already and get it over with. That they can't even hold a vote in the house speaks volumes as to where they really are on all of this. They want to play games and I am simply interested in playing games ... or being played which ever the case may be.

In one short year the American people can decide if Trumps actions are to troubling to allow him to continue as president; there really is no need for any of this.



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:46 PM
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a reply to: Gorgonite

I'd say because this has become the typical attack from the left and as of yet absolutely none of them have been what they said.

I wonder more why, if this was such a bad call, is the media not calling the Ukranian President a liar and calling him out? He clearly said there was no quid pro quo.

I tend to believe the ones that were actually involved and there. The whole whistle blower thing is very obviously just the next ploy like Kavanaugh. It's the exact same playbook just a different scenario. Multiple people coming forward with a whole bunch of nothing solely to smear someone else.

Meanwhile, Bidens Ukraine connection actually does appear to be very shady. Yet here we are....talking about what the meaning of the word "is" is.



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:47 PM
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originally posted by: network dude
a reply to: Gorgonite

you seem to have not read the transcript but believe what some other outlet wants you to believe. I suggest reading the transript in it's entirety, then come back and see if what you stated, it what really happened.

With the transcript out, the whistle blower stuff isn't anything but crying. We know EXACTLY what was said.

it was not something I would have wanted Trump to say or ask for, but he did. I'd have rather had Barr go looking for the facts and Trump not bothering with that investigation. The one that has been going for a while now. The one John Durham is involved in. Perhaps you have heard of it?


I have read the transcript. Multiple times. I see wrongdoing there. What facts do you have that show otherwise. What other president has ever acted in this manner? What law allows this? etc? That is what I am looking for.

But the transcript is no longer the only piece of evidence supporting wrongdoing. Now there are multiple whistleblowers, text messages between Trump appointees, etc.

Here is the transcript:

LINK

Relevant piece:



President Zelenskyy: It turns out that even though logically, the European Union should be our biggest partner but technically the United States is a much bigger partner than the European Union and I’m very grateful to you for that because the United States is doing quite a lot for Ukraine. Much more than the European Union especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russian Federation. I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps, specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.

The President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The server, they say Ukraine has it


The Texts

LINK



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:50 PM
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originally posted by: JON666
a reply to: Gorgonite

May I ask if Trump had come out with the Ukraine info a year ago before sleepy Joe announced his running for pres would you still have a problem with him looking into corruption? Is it ok for Trump to look into the corruption of SanFrans son?



That's not what happened. I am asking questions about reality, not hypotheticals.

The timing plays into every crime. What you are asking is similar to if a man killed his wife before they were married would it still be considered domestic violence. The timing is part of the crime.



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:52 PM
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a reply to: Gorgonite

Well let me start by saying welcome to this great community.

It's kind of inherent to the nature of the beast that on a conspiracy site you will find people who think a little differently. People from all walks of life with a common interest in finding stuff out for ourselfs and not take in the biased news that is fed to us daily through each and every medium.

I find it is almost impossible to do but if you try to take in as much info as you can you can have a great place in ATS to somewhat calibrate and find where that thruth lies.

Trump isn't the anti-christ, he also isn't God.

We discuss all that we find in a civil manner and try to see what floats.

You should avoid the mud-pit if you want to get an idea of the true nature of this site.

Happy scrolling and deny ignorance!!

Peace



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:52 PM
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I don't see ANY reason why the Potus (ANY Potus) can't have a conversation with a foreign leader that focuses on what this transcript says. To say that this is an "impeachable" offense is friggin' crazy.



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:57 PM
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a reply to: Gorgonite

Other Presidents have indeed done similar things. Tucker Carlson talked about this just last night on his show. He said it wasn't very difficult to find the transcripts of former President Bill Clinton doing the same thing - asking a foreign Govt. for help in a matter that would help him in his re-election. (although I don't even agree that what Trump did was about helping him in his re-election).

Do you really believe that just because Joe Biden is running for the Dem nominee that he should be able to get away with blatant strong arming of a foreign leader. Which he bragged about and it's on video, so there is no disputing that he did this.

The question is "why"? Why did Biden threaten to withhold 1 billion in aid to Ukraine if the prosecutor wasn't fired? And I see no reason why Trump shouldn't want to look into this.



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:58 PM
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originally posted by: Vasa Croe
a reply to: Gorgonite

I'd say because this has become the typical attack from the left and as of yet absolutely none of them have been what they said.

I wonder more why, if this was such a bad call, is the media not calling the Ukranian President a liar and calling him out? He clearly said there was no quid pro quo.

I tend to believe the ones that were actually involved and there. The whole whistle blower thing is very obviously just the next ploy like Kavanaugh. It's the exact same playbook just a different scenario. Multiple people coming forward with a whole bunch of nothing solely to smear someone else.

Meanwhile, Bidens Ukraine connection actually does appear to be very shady. Yet here we are....talking about what the meaning of the word "is" is.


There is obvious evidence of wrongdoing by the president. I'm asking what evidence do you have that is counter to that.

What I am getting back is "You aren't interpreting it correctly", "Everyone is just attacking Trump", and "You should be looking at Biden." BTW, I did look into the Biden situation in depth. Unless there is more evidence produced in the future, there isn't anything there. The crowdstrike thing was taken whole cloth from 4chan.

So far, the responses to this thread are just "believe me, Trump is the good guy, all that evidence you see isn't really bad. Everyone other than Trump is a liar, even those people Trump personally picked."

I'm a facts-based guy. So far the facts are not in Trump's corner and his continuing obstruction isn't helping matters.



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 12:59 PM
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a reply to: Gorgonite
Trump finally overstepped, got caught, and is going to be impeached.

He provided the rope to hang himself with.

That being said, many of his supporters shave chosen to overlook his obvious crimes and flaunting of the constitution, and are ego involved with defending him.

Recall, that after Nixon resigned in disgrace, almost 25% of his base still supported him.

It will be the same with Trump.

Some people can never admit they were wrong, and go into deep denial. It is understandable, as they are mostly frightened and confused by the changes they see going on around them. More stable folks can adapt, and admit they made a mistake, and go on with their lives. But for some, their ego, and how they view themselves, is so tied up with Trump, that it is crushing to them to admit he is a criminal.


The breadth of Trump’s controversies is truly yuge, ranging from allegations of mafia ties to unscrupulous business dealings, and from racial discrimination to alleged marital rape.

They stretch over more than four decades, from the mid-1970s to the present day. To catalogue the full sweep of allegations would require thousands of words and lump together the trivial with the truly scandalous. Including business deals that have simply failed, without any hint of impropriety, would require thousands more.


www.theatlantic.com...

Here is the new crime:


Over the course of a single seven-minute media availability on Thursday, President Donald Trump encouraged two foreign nations — Ukraine and China — to open investigations he hopes will implicate former vice president and current Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden in (unfounded) corruption allegations.

Not only was Trump’s conduct unseemly, but, as the head of America’s elections watchdog explained on national television Friday, it could be illegal. That’s because federal elections law prohibits any person from soliciting, accepting, or receiving anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a US election. The law doesn’t just apply to money — investigations or political dirt that benefit a particular campaign counts as “things of value” too. And in case Trump is unclear about this, the current chair of the Federal Election Commission (FEC) has gone out of her way to try to explain it to him.


www.vox.com...



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 01:01 PM
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a reply to: Gorgonite

There isnt any evidence that points to anything wrong or illegal.

If you are just going by what the talking heads say then I cant argue with you as that isnt evidence.

Ultimately it will just be proven because nothing will happen...exactly like all of their attempts prior.



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 01:02 PM
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originally posted by: toolgal462
a reply to: Gorgonite

Other Presidents have indeed done similar things. Tucker Carlson talked about this just last night on his show. He said it wasn't very difficult to find the transcripts of former President Bill Clinton doing the same thing - asking a foreign Govt. for help in a matter that would help him in his re-election. (although I don't even agree that what Trump did was about helping him in his re-election).

Do you really believe that just because Joe Biden is running for the Dem nominee that he should be able to get away with blatant strong arming of a foreign leader. Which he bragged about and it's on video, so there is no disputing that he did this.

The question is "why"? Why did Biden threaten to withhold 1 billion in aid to Ukraine if the prosecutor wasn't fired? And I see no reason why Trump shouldn't want to look into this.



Can you provide a link to those transcripts? Which foreign leader was he talking to? What did he ask for?

I'm not trying to say you aren't telling the truth. I just don't make decisions on what I am told. I need to see the evidence for myself.

Thanks!

Also, I have already done an in-depth look at the Biden situation and unless you have more evidence than what is currently obtainable, he didn't do anything wrong. Look here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Oct, 8 2019 @ 01:03 PM
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I believe anything posted to counter your assessment will be ignored due to your biases and automatically linked to some liberal news or fact checking site that you deem is factually correct. This isn’t about understanding others points of view it’s about countering the viewpoints you don’t like. It’s like a game with liberals where we prove time after time they are wrong only to have some crap article with loose science or loose ethics counter the viewpoints through semantics.

Most who lean right are extremely tired of this game. People on the left lost their collective sh#t after the 2016 election. We spent 3 years on this russia gate bs. We watched as you ignored Hillary’s crimes, Obama’s crimes, holders crimes, Comey’s crimes, Brennens crimes, Lynch’s crimes. We watched the DNC coverup the hack on their own server to push an agenda.

The second the spot light gets turned onto any dem actions you act partisan and the second it gets turned on a republican we get the pretend non partisan response of we should act on it regardless of party affiliation. The first whistle blower and the actions of nacy and chuck are extremely suspect so now the media is focusing on the new first hand account whistle blower at the IRS in an effort to move the goalpost again!

It’s getting old watching as you guys jump from false story to another false, misconstrued or fraudulently concocted story about trump.

Did your parents ever tell you the story of the little boy who cried wolf? Eventually nobody believed he kid and he was eaten by a wolf at the end because nobody believed his cries.

In truth we witnessed the liberal version of clean, ethical politics and it was as dirty and dishonest as you can possible get.


edit on 8-10-2019 by Veryolduser because: (no reason given)



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