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The American Civil War of 2005 as predicted by John Titor

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posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 08:03 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
1. Energy. Can anyone here imagine how much energy it would take to send a human being through time intact? No you can't. No matter how much I try, I just can't imagine that much energy harnessed. It's simply not possible.

2. We're humans. I don't think people realize how fragile our bodies are. Does anyone honestly believe we can be exposed to the amount of energy, forces, pressure, etc. that it take to time travel and not be completely obliterated?

3. Materials. Pop quiz! What element on Earth, moon, Mars, whereever is abundant enough, and strong enough (to withstand the toils of time travel) to create time machines?



I just want to address the first three issue from this post.

1. Since time travel has yet to happen and we have no real idea of the physics involved how can you know this?

2. See answer 1.

3. See answer 1.




posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
After this is done I want my $100



**
John Titor- The time Traveler.

If done right, his story could turn into a pretty decent novel. And by done right I mean filling all the holes. And most importantly.....taking the time travel part out.
1. Energy. Can anyone here imagine how much energy it would take to send a human being through time intact? No you can't. No matter how much I try, I just can't imagine that much energy harnessed. It's simply not possible.


Ok, we don't know yet how difficult it is to create/control a singularity. So we have no idea how much energy we'll need. Also, we don't know how much or how little energy is actually needed to time travel it's all theoretical. MOST IMPORTANTLY models of time travel that are based on a 1 universe view of physics are inherently flawed.


2. We're humans. I don't think people realize how fragile our bodies are. Does anyone honestly believe we can be exposed to the amount of energy, forces, pressure, etc. that it take to time travel and not be completely obliterated?


Yeah that's true. Humans could never take a bullet and survive...oh wait what is that stuff called that we invented...Kevlar? You underestimate human ingenuity, and neither you or I know exactly what energy and forces a human being would be subject to in any type of time travel machine so neither of us is qualified to make any claims about how difficult or easy it would be for a human to survive.


3. Materials. Pop quiz! What element on Earth, moon, Mars, whereever is abundant enough, and strong enough (to withstand the toils of time travel) to create time machines?

Give up? There is none


See above. Neither of us know if there even are any "toils of time travel" so neither of us are qualified to make any claims about materials being strong enough.


4. The multiverse. So apparently according to Titor there are and infinate number of timelines. If you do overcome all impossibilites and time travel, getting back to where you started is virtually impossible. He can't get back to his worldline, and he can't come back to this one. Yet....he has a job as a time traveler....
How is this possible? How is it possible that after every mission, he goes back to his world and the people are the same, the events that led up to that point are the same, etc. He says there's only a 1-2% divergence.....but that is significant! The difference between us and monkeys is about 2%. Yet he never makes any comments about the year 2036 being different every time he goes back. Are you telling me that in every possible worldline time travel is discovered by 2036, and in every one there's a civil war and a nuke war?


2% of infinity is not infinity, it's infinity/50. You've gotta think of it as a constant (I know, kinda weird).

You should read the John Titor archive before you start making inferences without having all the information. The way he can get back to his timeline is by using the gravity measurements that he used to time travel backward and travel along that same course. No not every timeline has a civil war and not every timeline has time travel, he even says this explicitly. BUT if a time traveler were to go back in time, and then travel back to his time he would never get back to a worldline with 0% divergence. It may be very close, but it will never be the exact same one.

Think about it this way. Let's just say for sake of argument that there are only 3 timelines, not an infinite amount. In this model of reality 3 is the same as infinity. We'll call these timelines A, B, and C. A time traveler from all these timelines takes a 5 minute trip back in time and then a 5 minute and 1 second trip forward in time. Let's just say that time travelers A, B, and C are all the same person but in parallel universes. Time traveler A will end up in B's universe, time traveler B will end up in C's universe, and time traveler C will end up in A's universe; or something like that. None of them will get back to their original universe because in the case of infinite timelines that scenario is statistically impossible.

John Titor will go back to a timeline where his life was more or less the same, with tiny inconsistencies with events in that universe compared to his own universe. The same goes for the John Titor who originally occupied the universe that he's traveling back to. THAT John Titor will arrive back in the "original" John Titor's universe which will be slightly different than his own.

It's funny how you use the word "Impossible" a lot. Hundreds of years ago people thought it was impossible for the earth not to be the center of the universe, largely because of the church's theory on the origin of the universe (the biblical creation story). Galileo was persecuted for even suggesting that the Earth orbits the Sun. People used to not believe in the existence of bacteria and micro-organisms. People used to believe that flight was impossible.

At this stage of our technological advancement NO ONE is qualified to say what is possible and what isn't.

Oh...one last thing about your disbelief in the multiverse. Without the infinite parallel universe model, modern physics would be impossible. This is something you learn in introductory college chemistry, electrons dont orbit the nucleus of the atom. Instead they occupy a cloud of probability, that is to say we can never tell or track exactly where the electron is, we can just calculate the overall probability of where it will show up if we observe it. Electrons dont orbit the nucleus, rather they randomly teleport to "probable" locations around it.


5. Timing is everything. Speaking of Civil and Nuclear wars....Titor claims he's from the year 2036. The US and and rest of the world has been at war since at least 2004 until about 2016 (let's assume the nuke war lasts a year or so - he never specifies). Years of war. Billions - not millions - billions dead. Resources limited. Water and environment a mess. Yet in just 20 years after, society is able to surpass what took hundreds as far as Tech is concerned. The world's population would not have replenished in just 20 years meaning services would be extremely stretched. Resources will still be rare. The worldwide economy would be in shambles. Yet they still have time to create time machines.

Instead of rebuilding and surviving, they're busy making time machines. It would take billions upon billions of dollars to create such machines. Where did they get the money?? Why aren't they rebuilding with that money?? Again, any time machines would use tons upon tons of amounts of energy. Why in the world are they wasting that energy on time travel, when they need it then and there. It would take years and years of R and D to create time machines. When did they have time for all that??


*sigh*...again, neither you or I are qualified to talk about the kind of energy that time machines require. And technology wouldn't be COMPLETELY WIPED OUT. We'll still most of our scientific literature in the universities of places that aren't nuked.


6. Testing. This could go with #4. Since there are multiple time lines and you can't get back to your original.....how exactly do you successfuly test a time machine? There's no way you can create such things without testing them.

next up: John Titor's Civil War and his other "predictions"


Read my response to point #4. It is possible to test time travel even with an infinite amount of universes. Only the "test pilot" would be switching places with another "test pilot" in a different parellel universe when he got back to his own time.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 09:33 PM
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how much longer can a thread go on? The things that he said would happen have not happened.
that should in itself be enough.
it is true what they say about the human psyche. we will and do hold onto the most ludricrous notions even in situations of obvious inaccuracy. it's ok to be wrong about what you used to believe about john titor. it isn't nessecary to hold onto that position any longer. please let those notions and this thread die.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 11:14 PM
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I think we are getting closer and closer to militia uprisings in the United States. Just look at what has already happened, what is happening right now, and what will happen in the near future.

1. FEMA just backed out of its $2,000 ATM shopping spree for Huricane Victims after the poor people waiting in lines for days.

2. The Supreme Court will overturn Roe v.Wade

3. Another Natural Disaster is coming soon in America.

4. Iran is not working with us on non-proliferation, I can feel a draft.

5. The US Economy is about to burn itself out

Just wait and see, this is only the start of the Waco like events.

You still have time. Move your Family to safety and stock pile food for 3 years now.



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 11:41 PM
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FEMA did NOT back out of the $2,000 ATM cards for survivors. They are changing it to a direct deposit instead of a debit card because of the confusion over how to get a card and who was elligible. Instead of getting a card with $2,000 on it, they're getting $2,000 deposited into their bank accounts.

You know for a FACT they're going to overturn Roe V Wade? That's pretty good.

Ophelia is busy wandering around the Atlantic and is barely able to stay as a hurricane. Unless you're being a prophet now and predicting something.



[edit on 9-9-2005 by Zaphod58]



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 11:45 PM
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If the Blair government don't accept the terms and take it for a terrorist action, this could be a major event that could rise the tensions between government and the population that could lead to a civil war between the population and the government...

www.atsnn.com...

And another oil crisis could be disastrous... How many barrels the UK refineries are producing every day?



posted on Sep, 9 2005 @ 11:56 PM
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I too think this thread should die. Nevertheless today has been good! Real debates. Almost brings a tear to my eye. This is what this thread should have been like since the begining, but certain people (who will remain nameless) insists on Titor's story into his- I mean their own


Shakya's post first:

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
Ok, we don't know yet how difficult it is to create/control a singularity. So we have no idea how much energy we'll need. Also, we don't know how much or how little energy is actually needed to time travel it's all theoretical. MOST IMPORTANTLY models of time travel that are based on a 1 universe view of physics are inherently flawed.
***
Yeah that's true. Humans could never take a bullet and survive...oh wait what is that stuff called that we invented...Kevlar? You underestimate human ingenuity, and neither you or I know exactly what energy and forces a human being would be subject to in any type of time travel machine so neither of us is qualified to make any claims about how difficult or easy it would be for a human to survive.
***
See above. Neither of us know if there even are any "toils of time travel" so neither of us are qualified to make any claims about materials being strong enough.

Ok, so explain to me time travel. You don't just say 'I want to go to 1971' and boom you're there. You have to do something right? Something like....bending space and time maybe? How do you propose we do that without expending energy?
Titor:
"The mass and gravitational field of a microsingularity can then be manipulated by "injecting" electrons onto its surface. By rotating two electric microsigularities at high speed, it is possible to create and modify a local gravity sinusoid that replicates the affects of a Kerr black hole. For those asking how come a microsingularity doesn't swallow the Earth or want to know details about the size, stability, mass, temperature and resulting Hawking radiation from such a thing.. those details I must keep to myself."

No details....hmm....I wonder why.

And again, I must emphasize timing. While billions around them are dying these people had the time, resources, energy, and money to research, test, and develop all this. Half the world is dead, but no...they're not worried about their families or where the next meal or glass of clean water would come from, they're too busy creating time machines for......well....I'm not exactly sure what they're for....


2% of infinity is not infinity, it's infinity/50. You've gotta think of it as a constant (I know, kinda weird).

You should read the John Titor archive before you start making inferences without having all the information. The way he can get back to his timeline is by using the gravity measurements that he used to time travel backward and travel along that same course. No not every timeline has a civil war and not every timeline has time travel, he even says this explicitly. BUT if a time traveler were to go back in time, and then travel back to his time he would never get back to a worldline with 0% divergence. It may be very close, but it will never be the exact same one.

Yeah...that's what I said. Yet somehow he has managed to go back to the same one or an amazingly familiar one each and every time. (I'm assuming, since he keeps getting sent on missions)

Titor:
"There is a bit of folklore about the first distortion driver who reaches a destination with a zero divergence. This would mean they had traveled on a spacelike trip to their own worldline of origin. This paradox is quite possible although highly unlikely."

Care to expound Titor?


John Titor will go back to a timeline where his life was more or less the same, with tiny inconsistencies with events in that universe compared to his own universe. The same goes for the John Titor who originally occupied the universe that he's traveling back to. THAT John Titor will arrive back in the "original" John Titor's universe which will be slightly different than his own.

How?

This also reminds me of something I didn't bring up earlier. Setting a date when time traveling. Don't make me laugh
.
Tomorrow I'll go into deeper detail.


It's funny how you use the word "Impossible" a lot.

It's impossible for me to grow wings in the next 20 seconds then fly to the moon and back. Some things in life are just impossible.


Hundreds of years ago people thought it was impossible for the earth not to be the center of the universe, largely because of the church's theory on the origin of the universe (the biblical creation story). Galileo was persecuted for even suggesting that the Earth orbits the Sun. People used to not believe in the existence of bacteria and micro-organisms. People used to believe that flight was impossible.

Titor's story is impossible. Now if he had said that's he from the year 3036 or 4036, he'd be much more believable.

BUT....you're right, any where I have said time travel is impossible. Please ignore that! It may very well be possible.
Sending atoms or a piece of dust is conceivable. Sending a complex human being is where I have problems.


At this stage of our technological advancement NO ONE is qualified to say what is possible and what isn't.

We're talking about after a nuclear war in which half the world's population is destroyed. I can guarentee you that after such and event, technology would take a big step back.


Oh...one last thing about your disbelief in the multiverse. Without the infinite parallel universe model, modern physics would be impossible.

I didn't say I didn't believe in the multiverse, it's going through time traveling between them where I have a problem.


This is something you learn in introductory college chemistry, electrons dont orbit the nucleus of the atom. Instead they occupy a cloud of probability, that is to say we can never tell or track exactly where the electron is, we can just calculate the overall probability of where it will show up if we observe it. Electrons dont orbit the nucleus, rather they randomly teleport to "probable" locations around it.

Thank you for explaining further why Titor's story is more unbelieveable than it is believeable. This is exactly why setting dates is highly improbable and him getting back to his own timeline is highly improbable.

(I did pretty good in Chem btw, how about you?
)


*sigh*...again, neither you or I are qualified to talk about the kind of energy that time machines require. And technology wouldn't be COMPLETELY WIPED OUT. We'll still most of our scientific literature in the universities of places that aren't nuked.

Manpower and resources would be strained and limited worldwide. So would money.


Read my response to point #4. It is possible to test time travel even with an infinite amount of universes. Only the "test pilot" would be switching places with another "test pilot" in a different parellel universe when he got back to his own time.

What if there are no parallel universes with time travel? Improbable, I know, but still possible. What then?

Vasilis Azoth:

1. Since time travel has yet to happen and we have no real idea of the physics involved how can you know this?

Ohh! Thank you. You made me think of something else.
Now this even confuses me and I know I'm not going to explain it right.
You say time travel has yet to happen....but....it has (according to Titor - he came here didn't he?). Right? If time travel is possible in the future it's possible now. Yet we don't have it. Why?

Ldragon:

Humans once believed that humans could not with stand the G-forces of breaking away from Earth Atmosphere+ gravity..

Yeah and now we know the limits a human can stand. Hey, if you can show me where traveling through time would be less taxing on the body, then by all means inform me. I really want to know. I don't see how, but maybe you can explain.

MasterWu: You have to realize that it was 10 years of Civil War before the nuclear war. Titor says the war was on "everyone's doorstep"....so I'm guessing pretty much everyone in the US was affected someway. I tend to believe scientist are humans too. Maybe it's just me. I think they'd be (as well as the gov) more interested in themselves and their families well being than wasting time and money on time travel which would not satisfy any of their current needs.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 12:16 AM
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Look everyone: John Titor's story is a very interesting piece of fiction by someone well versed in William Strauss and Neil Howe's very compelling theory of American history,which posits a repeating cycle of generational types and eras or "turnings" culimating about every eighty years in a "fourth turning," or crisis.

Previous fourth turnings in Anglo-American history have included the Glorious Revolution, the American Revolution, the Civil War and Reconstruction, and the great depression and World War II.

They are periods of genuine national peril, where problems ignored during the "second turning" (which in this case lasted from about 1964 to 1984, and may include not only the threat of Islamist terrorism but peak oil and the need for political reform both here and abroad) will manifest themselves in often catastrophic ways. Civil liberties tend to be curbed, the nation either pulls together (as it did in the depression and second world war) or comes apart at the seams, and in two of the last three 4ts (the revolutionary war and civil war) takes up arms against each other. Gender norms and sexual mores tend to become more conservative, censorship is heightened, power tends to revert from the states to the federal government, and the risk of total war, either internally or externally is not insignificant. The instatement of a general draft has been the norm. Faith in government will collapse (before that faith is ultimately revived) but Americans will come to demand more from it at the same time. In extreme cases countries may fall under totalitarian control (as with nazi germany) or literally break up.

Each generation has a very particular role to play during a fourth turning, and in this case the baby boomers will play roughly the same role played by Roosevelt and Hoover's generation in the last 4t and Lincoln and Davis's generation before that, as messianic moralists and at least for the first decade of the crisis continue to dominate the political elite. Generation x (those born between 1961 and 1980/81) will play roughly the same role as the lost generation (of Truman and Eisenhower and Patton) played in the last fourth turning, and the liberty generation (of George Washington, Thomas Paine, Patrick Henry, and Paul Revere) played in the revolutionary war, as tough, harboiled, pragmatic commanders. And the so-called millenials (born between 1981/82 and 2001) will play roughly the same role that the greatest generation played in the last fourth turning, as scoutish conformists and foot soldiers who will go on to one day help to restore the civic order.

The theory has great merit, and Titor's story no doubt uses its basic framework to make a very specific (though ultimately implausible) prediction about the future. Strauss and Howe predicted that this fourth turning would begin in the early years of the twenty-first century (2004/2005 to be exact), and if anyone familiar with the theory was going to make a specific prediction about what this 4t had in store for us immediately after the 2000 election (as Titor did) one might well suspect that with such a closely divided country we might soon end up in a second civil war. The election map of both 2000 and 2004 closely mirrored the 1860 electoral map.

But of course what Mr. Titor did not know was that the catalyst for this fourth turning was going to be a massive terrorist attack on American soil, and not "a series of Waco type events." Bush, like Herbert Hoover before him, has tragically mismanaged the early years of this crisis (something all you hard right Republican trolls had best do yourselves a favor and start recognizing) but that does mean we will not see a "grey champion" (this is one of Strauss and Howe's terms, and why Titor threw in the Lincoln reference) like FDR claim the broad center of the electorate in 2008 and lead us out of the wilderness. I'm predicting it will be Giuliani, but it could be a Democrat or an Independent or the leader of a party that does not yet exist.

Things are going to get much worse in this country (and probably elsewhere too) before they get better. There are going to be further attacks on American soil. There may be further wars in the Arab-Muslim world, and quite possibly a draft. Peak oil may well be just around the corner as well, and as a result we could see the kind of chaos and anarchy that broke out in New Orleans become much more widespread for a time. We may well see a devastating economic collapse when the "long boom" finally ends and the housing, equities, and credit bubbles finally burst. We may see the "radical center" demand far reaching political and constitutional reforms (even a second constitutional convention) and actually get them (although I remain skeptical that we are about to see a violent revolution). And just in case it needs to be said natural disasters tend to be especially terrible during fourth turings. The particulars are even now difficult to say though with anything like total certainty.

But that doesn't mean the culture wars are going to become a shooting war, or that the "rurals" are going to wage a war with the federal government that climaxes in most American cities being (bizarrely) nuked by the Russians (remind me again why the Russians would bother nuking our cities). If anything, it is rural America that remains on this president's side. and it seems more likely that issues like abortion and gay marriage will fall by the wayside or be turned over to the states as this crisis picks up steam. If oil supplies and as a result supplies of food and basic necessities are significantly disrupted folks are just not going to be too worried about men marrying each other one way or the other.

America will survive. The rapture is not coming (unless you've taken too much acid). There is unlikely to be a nuclear war, and the world will be reborn again in the next twenty years. America could become a much looser federation of states, and the international order is likely to look significantly different as well. Do make preparations. Do build support networks. Do be good to your neighbors (reputation will matter again). Familiarize yourself with www.fourthturning.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> the theory. But don't believe "John Titor". To the extent that what he said bears any relationship to reality it is because he has read "Generations" and "the Fourth Turning," not because he is a time traveller.



[edit on 10-9-2005 by greenturtle]



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 12:50 AM
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"Peak oil may well be just around the corner as well, and as a result we could see the kind of chaos and anarchy that broke out in New Orleans become much more widespread for a time."

If you go for the Titor concept or not, our societies dependence on oil and electricity sets us on the edge of a razor, after so many days without electricity to keep food the same conditions that have affected those in recently could effect us.

Is this possible what is meant by an urban vs rural conflict? People just trying to survive. Imagine your city. What would you do?

I don't care one way or the other about if it's a lie, what we have seen in the recent weeks is just interesting to see how fragile our existence is.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 07:21 AM
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Dear ThatsJustWeird. You haven’t asked any questions that weren’t already answered by John Titor.


Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
1. Energy. Can anyone here imagine how much energy it would take to send a human being through time intact? No you can't. No matter how much I try, I just can't imagine that much energy harnessed. It's simply not possible.


No more energy is needed than the amount of energy a particle accelerator is able to produce. (think CERN):

John Titor
TimeTravel_0 : They will accidentally create micro singularities.
TimeTravel_0 : Which will evaporate very quickly.
TimeTravel_0 : and create a massive amount of X-ray and Gamma rays.
TimeTravel_0 : It will puzzle them for a while.
TimeTravel_0 : Until they figure out how to add and electrical charge and capture these strange odd and massive particles in a magnetic field.
TimeTravel_0 : If you bombard a singularity with electrons...
TimeTravel_0 : you can alter the size of its event horizon.
TimeTravel_0 : and thus its gravitational field.
TimeTravel_0 : By overlapping these fields from two singularities...
TimeTravel_0 : you can travel forward and backward through time.
TimeTravel_0 : Its actually quite simple.
TimeTravel_0 : That’s not the hard part.
G° : didn't tipler say there was no event horizon?
TimeTravel_0 : No. He said it was possible to approach a massive
gravitational field from certain angles and not get squished
.

It’s simply a matter of using the knowledge and energy that’s already there:

John Titor
Q: Warping time and space takes lots of energy.
“Yes it does. A nuclear aircraft carrier and a space shuttle main engine also take a great deal of energy. Hawking believes it's possible to build a time machine but a mysterious energy will destroy it if anyone tries to use it. In my opinion, manipulating gravity is not the hard part of time travel. Also, with great power comes great responsibility. If man has a limitation, that's it.”
“The energy stored in the singularity is used to create the distortion fields. That energy is created in a particle accelerator.”
“The real energy is in creating the machine, not operating it.”

“Perhaps it would have been clearer to state that the math has been around since 1970. I would urge you to examine the properties of Kerr black holes and Tipler cylinders. An actual working prototype was first tested in 2034. On my worldline, time travel is not a public recreation but we are all aware that it exists. You may be disappointed to know that the ability to manipulate gravity is not the technical challenge that had to be overcome.
Miniaturizing the clocks and sensors, creating clever ways to vent x-rays and creating a computer system dependable enough to calculate the changes required to the field were the main challenges. There are no missing pieces, just missing energy levels and a few very interesting subatomic particles.”


Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
2. We're humans. I don't think people realize how fragile our bodies are. Does anyone honestly believe we can be exposed to the amount of energy, forces, pressure, etc. that it take to time travel and not be completely obliterated?

3. Materials. Pop quiz! What element on Earth, moon, Mars, whereever is abundant enough, and strong enough (to withstand the toils of time travel) to create time machines?

Give up? There is none

It’s simply not necessary. For the rest you can be trained.

John Titor
“There are two singularities. Their mass and spin is altered in order to adjust the size of the ergosphere and cause the event horizons to interact and create the gravity sinusoid.”

“There is no relative movement in space due to three main factors. Large, kinetic energy inducing effects of the gravity field are compensated for by the interaction of the singularities. The mass of the unit and any objects inside the sinusoid do not exhibit any huge increases on the departure worldline during travel. The observed path of the traveler is obtained by changing the gravity, not by moving the vehicle. The black hole comes to you.”

”It can also get quite hot and stuffy during the trip and you'll be subjected to a 1.5 to 2 G force the entire time. You'll also need some sort of a re-breather system or oxygen supply.”


Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
4. The multiverse. So apparently according to Titor there are and infinate number of timelines. If you do overcome all impossibilites and time travel, getting back to where you started is virtually impossible. He can't get back to his worldline, and he can't come back to this one. Yet....he has a job as a time traveler....
How is this possible? How is it possible that after every mission, he goes back to his world and the people are the same, the events that led up to that point are the same, etc. He says there's only a 1-2% divergence.....but that is significant! The difference between us and monkeys is about 2%. Yet he never makes any comments about the year 2036 being different every time he goes back. Are you telling me that in every possible worldline time travel is discovered by 2036, and in every one there's a civil war and a nuke war?


John Titor
Q: Won't even a small divergence between worldliness cause everything to look different to you as compared to your worldline?
“The divergence measurement refers to the local gravitational field as compared to the point of origin. It is merely an empirical indicator of overall change in a worldline. Some things that are quite different on one worldline have very little effect as time passes and the worldlines appear to "converge" again and look very similar. Worldline changes are not exponential; they act more like chaotic attractors with varying effect depending on their size and location.”

”On my worldline: (A) in 2036, I was given a mission in 1975. I turn my machine on and jump to another worldline (B) in 1975 with about a 2% divergence from (A).
From the very point I turn my machine off on (B), I create a new worldline just because I'm there. This line can be described as (C) and started when I got to (B).
I am now doing my mission on line (C) in 1975 when I discover a very a good reason to go forward on (C) and see what happened. I turn my machine on and go forward on (C) to the year 2000.
When I turn it off, I start another line called (D). So from my perspective, here we are on line (D) in the year 2000. In order to go home to line (A) I must turn my machine on and go back on (D) until I reach (C) which in turn would take me back to (B) which in turn takes me to a point before I arrived on (B) then I go forward from the point I arrived on (B) back to (A).”
“The computer units and gravity sensors "record" your trip and you are quite easily able to return to your point of origin.”

Q: Are you able to return to your home?
“Yes.”


Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
5. Timing is everything. Speaking of Civil and Nuclear wars....Titor claims he's from the year 2036. The US and and rest of the world has been at war since at least 2004 until about 2016 (let's assume the nuke war lasts a year or so - he never specifies). Years of war. Billions - not millions - billions dead. Resources limited. Water and environment a mess. Yet in just 20 years after, society is able to surpass what took hundreds as far as Tech is concerned. The world's population would not have replenished in just 20 years meaning services would be extremely stretched. Resources will still be rare. The worldwide economy would be in shambles. Yet they still have time to create time machines.

Instead of rebuilding and surviving, they're busy making time machines. It would take billions upon billions of dollars to create such machines. Where did they get the money?? Why aren't they rebuilding with that money?? Again, any time machines would use tons upon tons of amounts of energy. Why in the world are they wasting that energy on time travel, when they need it then and there. It would take years and years of R and D to create time machines. When did they have time for all that??


John Titor
“Even in your own history, are not great inventions and discoveries made during a time of war in your effort to kill and maim in new and more efficient ways?”
“Perhaps it would have been clearer to state that the math has been around since 1970. I would urge you to examine the properties of Kerr black holes and Tipler cylinders. An actual working prototype was first tested in 2034. On my worldline, time travel is not a public recreation but we are all aware that it exists. You may be disappointed to know that the ability to manipulate gravity is not the technical challenge that had to be overcome.
Miniaturizing the clocks and sensors, creating clever ways to vent x-rays and creating a computer system dependable enough to calculate the changes required to the field were the main challenges. There are no missing pieces, just missing energy levels and a few very interesting subatomic particles.”
“Even for you, Tesla technology can be found in appliances, motors and generators. I would have to say we have come a long way on Tesla's foundation but we don't have electricity rays that cause earthquakes.”
“We time travel to solve problems. A great deal of effort is going into repairing the environment and infrastructure.”


Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
6. Testing. This could go with #4. Since there are multiple time lines and you can't get back to your original.....how exactly do you successfuly test a time machine? There's no way you can create such things without testing them.


John Titor
“An actual working prototype was first tested in 2034.”
“The basics for time travel start at CERN in about a year and end in 2034 with the first "time machine" built by GE.”
“When time travel was discovered, there were many people who were against its development. However, once the true nature of time was realized, the resistance faded.”

“TimeTravel_0 : Altering gravity is not the hard part.
G° : LOL
Yareisa : go on...
TimeTravel_0 : Detecting gravity is the hard part.
TimeTravel_0 : I will tell you a little story.
TimeTravel_0 : When time travel was invented.
TimeTravel_0 : They built prototypes that would go back in time for a
split second and then return.
TimeTravel_0 : They had sensors and cameras on them.
TimeTravel_0 : ...and they never returned.
G° : and forwards as well? how about a single jump forwards?
TimeTravel_0 : It was later discovered that the machines were ending up
about 15 miles away and 3000 feet in the air.
TimeTravel_0 : feet
G° : doh!
TimeTravel_0 : The Earth was rotating away from them.
wyrmkin_37 : synchronization please
TimeTravel_0 : A system had to be invented that would "hold" the machine
to the Earth.
TimeTravel_0 : Its called VGL.
TimeTravel_0 : Its based on very sensitive clocks and gravity sensors.
TimeTravel_0 : It stops the time distortion machine if radical changes in
gravity are detected.
wyrmkin_37 : mechanical or electronic clocks
TimeTravel_0 : You wouldn't want to end up inside a mountain or under
water...would you?
TimeTravel_0 : Cesium.”

Greetings, Roth.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by greenturtle
But of course what Mr. Titor did not know was that the catalyst for this fourth turning was going to be a massive terrorist attack on American soil, and not "a series of Waco type events."

Now, what if Titor knew about 9/11/2001 but decided solely to discuss the aftermath instead of the initial event?
Suppose Titor went back to 1986 and "predicted" Germany's economy would be weighed down for over a decade, would that be a lucky guess or can we safely assume he knew about the fall of the Berlin Wall?
Now, what if he drops a hint here and there such as "aren't we all 'Berliners' after all?" What would that tell you?

John Titor
"My definition of a patriot is anyone who defends the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic."


Originally posted by greenturtle
But don't believe "John Titor". To the extent that what he said bears any relationship to reality it is because he has read "Generations" and "the Fourth Turning," not because he is a time traveller.

Even if he has read "Generations" and "The Fourth Turning" do you think his quotes about the Iraq war, the elections, CERN, microsingularities, degrading foreign policy, 'non-lethal' weapons, the Constitution and Bill of Rights, our President "leader" in 2005, bicycle tires in 2008, will make him a prophet, nomad, hero or artist?



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by Roth Joint

Originally posted by greenturtle
But of course what Mr. Titor did not know was that the catalyst for this fourth turning was going to be a massive terrorist attack on American soil, and not "a series of Waco type events."

Now, what if Titor knew about 9/11/2001 but decided solely to discuss the aftermath instead of the initial event?
Suppose Titor went back to 1986 and "predicted" Germany's economy would be weighed down for over a decade, would that be a lucky guess or can we safely assume he knew about the fall of the Berlin Wall?
Now, what if he drops a hint here and there such as "aren't we all 'Berliners' after all?" What would that tell you?

John Titor
"My definition of a patriot is anyone who defends the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic."


Originally posted by greenturtle
But don't believe "John Titor". To the extent that what he said bears any relationship to reality it is because he has read "Generations" and "the Fourth Turning," not because he is a time traveller.

Even if he has read "Generations" and "The Fourth Turning" do you think his quotes about the Iraq war, the elections, CERN, microsingularities, degrading foreign policy, 'non-lethal' weapons, the Constitution and Bill of Rights, our President "leader" in 2005, bicycle tires in 2008, will make him a prophet, nomad, hero or artist?


It seems to me that if you were truly interested in convincing people you were a time traveller you would go ahead and mention the most important historical event of the early twenty-first century in America, which of course was 9/11.

Virtually all of the other things he mentions could have been predicted with information publically available in late 2000, and early 2001. The CERN stuff was out there in 2000. The stuff about the constitution and curbs on civil liberties and the "Lincolnesque" president was easily extrapolated from the Fourth Turning. There were questions about the safety of non-lethal weapons from the beginning, and many astute political observers have been predicting the possibility of a second war with Iraq (which I don't believe Titor ever explicitly mentions) since 1991.

I believe Titor (or rather the man claiming to be Titor) is a generation xer (probably a first wave generation xer) masquerading as a millenial. His vision of a libertarian-communitarian paradise is classic nomad.

[edit on 10-9-2005 by greenturtle]



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 06:41 PM
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Many times i have seen people post some very excellent points both for and against in this arguement, and rarely do i see them get aknowledged.

Greenturtle brings up some very interesting points (and, in all rationality some very likely points as well) and i was extremely happy to see it posted. I have read those books, and there are some serious reoccuring 'coincidences' (i dont believe in that word but i'll use it here for simplicity) in history that i believe further investigation of actually would reveal predictable patterns.

As a 'naysayer', he has done more in ONE post than ALL of some other peoples post's on informing the rest of us of valid reasons to be skeptical (not believing in time travel to begin with, then coming up with reasons why one doesn't believe it after the fact just to suit the arguement doesn't cut it as valid in my opinion).... in my opinion, everyone should investigate with their own eyes and minds what exactly it is that he is talking about.

However, just because predictions and postulations have been made in the academic world that predate JT and predict and seriously describe the conditions in which he spoke, that alone does not discredit him to the point of hoaxer - though i would like to see it otherwise - (on first reading, i thought he had read those two books and was making up his own predictions based upon that as well).

One extremely good point of greenturtles post is that wether or not JT is real or hoaxer, we MUST be aware of how bad things are getting and prepare for them, and try and overcome them. If i were to try and pull off a hoax like this (i often try to put myself in others shoes in order to better understand) that would EXACTLY be my reason for doing it - to warn others of grim possibilities in our future in hopes that some of us may be better prepared should things go the way i think they are headed (and all indicators point that way).

Prepare for the worst while constructing for the best.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 06:54 PM
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Originally posted by Master Wu
Many times i have seen people post some very excellent points both for and against in this arguement, and rarely do i see them get aknowledged.

Greenturtle brings up some very interesting points (and, in all rationality some very likely points as well) and i was extremely happy to see it posted. I have read those books, and there are some serious reoccuring 'coincidences' (i dont believe in that word but i'll use it here for simplicity) in history that i believe further investigation of actually would reveal predictable patterns.

As a 'naysayer', he has done more in ONE post than ALL of some other peoples post's on informing the rest of us of valid reasons to be skeptical (not believing in time travel to begin with, then coming up with reasons why one doesn't believe it after the fact just to suit the arguement doesn't cut it as valid in my opinion).... in my opinion, everyone should investigate with their own eyes and minds what exactly it is that he is talking about.

However, just because predictions and postulations have been made in the academic world that predate JT and predict and seriously describe the conditions in which he spoke, that alone does not discredit him to the point of hoaxer - though i would like to see it otherwise - (on first reading, i thought he had read those two books and was making up his own predictions based upon that as well).

One extremely good point of greenturtles post is that wether or not JT is real or hoaxer, we MUST be aware of how bad things are getting and prepare for them, and try and overcome them. If i were to try and pull off a hoax like this (i often try to put myself in others shoes in order to better understand) that would EXACTLY be my reason for doing it - to warn others of grim possibilities in our future in hopes that some of us may be better prepared should things go the way i think they are headed (and all indicators point that way).

Prepare for the worst while constructing for the best.


Thank you for your complimentary remarks.

Titor may be a hoax, but he was a brilliant and timely one; maybe the most brilliant and timely internet hoax to date.

Someone might repeat what he has done with the coming fourth turning to the first or second turning that follows. Of course, since "highs" (first turnings) and "awakenings" (second turnings) tend to be less dramatic, or at least less catastrophic, the predictions would inevitably be less compelling than Titor's. Also, second turnings in particular tend to oscilliate between the more dramatic and the less dramatic, and since the last one (which brought everything from the counterculture and the anti-war movement to feminism and all that) was fairly dramatic, the next one is likely to be less so (more like the 1890s and first decade of the 1900s).

The forum over at fourthturning.com though is terrific, and people should check it out after they've read the book



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 08:13 PM
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People always post the question 'Are you willing to pick up a gun for your beliefs?'. Well, these people are...and they just so happen to be in rural, blue counties.



Fearful Southerners buy firearms at torrid pace
September 8, 2005
BATON ROUGE, La. -- Gun sales across the South boomed after the first reports surfaced of armed looters roaming the streets of New Orleans in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. And images of shots being fired at relief workers only elevated fears in some communities.

Now, as hundreds of thousands of people displaced from their homes are being resettled, gun store owners say they're being flooded by a demand for guns--particularly in Southern states and others where many of the hurricane victims are being relocated.

Mostly, they say, the demand is being fueled by "good people" wanting to protect their families and property. That includes some who might not otherwise purchase such weapons, they add.

Frank Pirie says his Baton Rouge store, Bowie Outfitters, is being inundated by people seeking handguns and shotguns in the storm's aftermath. "It's probably as many as we'd sell in almost a year," he said.
fairuse.1accesshost.com...



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 08:15 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
I too think this thread should die. Nevertheless today has been good! Real debates. Almost brings a tear to my eye. This is what this thread should have been like since the begining, but certain people (who will remain nameless) insists on Titor's story into his- I mean their own


Shakya's post first:

Originally posted by ShakyaHeir
Ok, we don't know yet how difficult it is to create/control a singularity. So we have no idea how much energy we'll need. Also, we don't know how much or how little energy is actually needed to time travel it's all theoretical. MOST IMPORTANTLY models of time travel that are based on a 1 universe view of physics are inherently flawed.
***
Yeah that's true. Humans could never take a bullet and survive...oh wait what is that stuff called that we invented...Kevlar? You underestimate human ingenuity, and neither you or I know exactly what energy and forces a human being would be subject to in any type of time travel machine so neither of us is qualified to make any claims about how difficult or easy it would be for a human to survive.
***
See above. Neither of us know if there even are any "toils of time travel" so neither of us are qualified to make any claims about materials being strong enough.

Ok, so explain to me time travel. You don't just say 'I want to go to 1971' and boom you're there. You have to do something right? Something like....bending space and time maybe? How do you propose we do that without expending energy?
Titor:
"The mass and gravitational field of a microsingularity can then be manipulated by "injecting" electrons onto its surface. By rotating two electric microsigularities at high speed, it is possible to create and modify a local gravity sinusoid that replicates the affects of a Kerr black hole. For those asking how come a microsingularity doesn't swallow the Earth or want to know details about the size, stability, mass, temperature and resulting Hawking radiation from such a thing.. those details I must keep to myself."

No details....hmm....I wonder why.

And again, I must emphasize timing. While billions around them are dying these people had the time, resources, energy, and money to research, test, and develop all this. Half the world is dead, but no...they're not worried about their families or where the next meal or glass of clean water would come from, they're too busy creating time machines for......well....I'm not exactly sure what they're for....


Would you give Nazi Germany the plans and theoretical mathematics to the atom bomb? Of course not. America is not meant to have time travel until nuclear war causes us to change from the war mongering, hypocritical state that we currently are.

Another thing...why do you want "this thread to die" so much? What's your hidden agenda?



2% of infinity is not infinity, it's infinity/50. You've gotta think of it as a constant (I know, kinda weird).

You should read the John Titor archive before you start making inferences without having all the information. The way he can get back to his timeline is by using the gravity measurements that he used to time travel backward and travel along that same course. No not every timeline has a civil war and not every timeline has time travel, he even says this explicitly. BUT if a time traveler were to go back in time, and then travel back to his time he would never get back to a worldline with 0% divergence. It may be very close, but it will never be the exact same one.

Yeah...that's what I said. Yet somehow he has managed to go back to the same one or an amazingly familiar one each and every time. (I'm assuming, since he keeps getting sent on missions)

Titor:
"There is a bit of folklore about the first distortion driver who reaches a destination with a zero divergence. This would mean they had traveled on a spacelike trip to their own worldline of origin. This paradox is quite possible although highly unlikely."

Care to expound Titor?


.9999 repeating is equal to 1.

1/infinity is equal to 0.



John Titor will go back to a timeline where his life was more or less the same, with tiny inconsistencies with events in that universe compared to his own universe. The same goes for the John Titor who originally occupied the universe that he's traveling back to. THAT John Titor will arrive back in the "original" John Titor's universe which will be slightly different than his own.

How?

This also reminds me of something I didn't bring up earlier. Setting a date when time traveling. Don't make me laugh
.
Tomorrow I'll go into deeper detail.


This has been explained by John Titor. You are like someone who is living in the late 1800s talking about the impossibilities of flight when you know NOTHING about the subject.



It's funny how you use the word "Impossible" a lot.

It's impossible for me to grow wings in the next 20 seconds then fly to the moon and back. Some things in life are just impossible.


Hundreds of years ago people thought it was impossible for the earth not to be the center of the universe, largely because of the church's theory on the origin of the universe (the biblical creation story). Galileo was persecuted for even suggesting that the Earth orbits the Sun. People used to not believe in the existence of bacteria and micro-organisms. People used to believe that flight was impossible.

Titor's story is impossible. Now if he had said that's he from the year 3036 or 4036, he'd be much more believable.

BUT....you're right, any where I have said time travel is impossible. Please ignore that! It may very well be possible.
Sending atoms or a piece of dust is conceivable. Sending a complex human being is where I have problems.


Again, see above. You have no clue what you're talking about.



At this stage of our technological advancement NO ONE is qualified to say what is possible and what isn't.

We're talking about after a nuclear war in which half the world's population is destroyed. I can guarentee you that after such and event, technology would take a big step back.


You cant "guarantee" anything about any future scenarios because of chaos theory. The same reason why computers cant predict weather patterns.



Oh...one last thing about your disbelief in the multiverse. Without the infinite parallel universe model, modern physics would be impossible.

I didn't say I didn't believe in the multiverse, it's going through time traveling between them where I have a problem.


Like I said before, unless you come out and tell us that you have a PHD in Physics and are currently researching time travel you are in no way qualified to say what is and is not possible. And even if you did there's still a chance that your research is wrong and there's another scientist out there that gets what you dont.



This is something you learn in introductory college chemistry, electrons dont orbit the nucleus of the atom. Instead they occupy a cloud of probability, that is to say we can never tell or track exactly where the electron is, we can just calculate the overall probability of where it will show up if we observe it. Electrons dont orbit the nucleus, rather they randomly teleport to "probable" locations around it.

Thank you for explaining further why Titor's story is more unbelieveable than it is believeable. This is exactly why setting dates is highly improbable and him getting back to his own timeline is highly improbable.

(I did pretty good in Chem btw, how about you?
)


How does that further explain why his story is unbeleivable? If you're going to put forth an argument at least support it with evidence. By just saying things you are not only loosing your credibility but your argument has nothing to stand on besides your intellectual authority (which you have yet to establish).



*sigh*...again, neither you or I are qualified to talk about the kind of energy that time machines require. And technology wouldn't be COMPLETELY WIPED OUT. We'll still most of our scientific literature in the universities of places that aren't nuked.

Manpower and resources would be strained and limited worldwide. So would money.


Which is why they would put those resources to rebuilding the world. Didn't John Titor say this is the reason they even build the time machine? So that they could rebuild the world? You talk like they built it so that they could use it for joy rides.



Read my response to point #4. It is possible to test time travel even with an infinite amount of universes. Only the "test pilot" would be switching places with another "test pilot" in a different parellel universe when he got back to his own time.

What if there are no parallel universes with time travel? Improbable, I know, but still possible. What then?


If parallel universes didn't exist then time travel would be impossible because of time travel paradoxes, and so would physics as stated above.


Vasilis Azoth:

1. Since time travel has yet to happen and we have no real idea of the physics involved how can you know this?

Ohh! Thank you. You made me think of something else.
Now this even confuses me and I know I'm not going to explain it right.
You say time travel has yet to happen....but....it has (according to Titor - he came here didn't he?). Right? If time travel is possible in the future it's possible now. Yet we don't have it. Why?


Uh...because we dont have the technology or theoretical mathematics developed yet? Your statement is like someone living in 1873 who is told that flight will be acheived in 30 years. "If it's possible in the future why dont we have it now?"

That's just assanine.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 09:45 PM
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The government is doing something illegal and against the constitution...

www.atsnn.com...

They are confiscating citizens firearms, even those who were legally bought and registrated... The Second amendment doesn't count or what?

This will do a lot of noise, I hope so...

Maybe here it is the line between those who support the government (to take away guns and the constitution with it to have more security) and those that don't support the government (the constitution and civil rights)...

Now we approximately know who will be the enemy and allies...

And now a peace activist have been arrested in Australia due to the new laws about terrorism!! A PEACE activist!!!

www.atsnn.com...

[edit on 10-9-2005 by Vitchilo]

[edit on 10-9-2005 by Vitchilo]



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 10:51 PM
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John Titor contradicts himself. Here are passages from his messages that indicates this contradiction.



John Titor did not claim to come back for a year 2038 bug fix. According to Titor:

I was "sent" to get an IBM computer system called the 5100. It was one the first portable computers made and it has the ability to read the older IBM programming langages [sic] in addition to APL and Basic. We need they [sic] system to "debug" various lagacy [sic] computer programs in 2036. UNIX has a problem in 2038.

The last sentence brought the confusion about the "need to fix an UNIX bug". Several months later he clears this up:

I don't believe I ever said I came back looking for a UNIX bug fix. I came back for a computer system. Don't you find UNIX usefull [sic] now?

en.wikipedia.org...

Doesnt this create a bit of confusion? He said that he came to the past to get the computer system to correct the UNIX bug. In the last sentence he didn't awknowledge that fact.

This is only a problem with 32-bit computers, they have an integer overflow in UNIX by that year. By then the 64-bit systems will be implimented, this overflow error will not occur with the 64-bit systems until the year 292,277,026,596. I highly doubt servers and PCs will be running on the 32-bit system by 2038. They would be obsolete by then.

en.wikipedia.org...


John Titor
Don't you find UNIX usefull [sic] now?


No.

P.S - The reason this thread is not going to die is because it is just getting milk dry for points. This thread is an unorganized bunch of posts that ramble on about the same thing that was mentioned a few pages before.



[edit on 9/10/2005 by GoldEagle]



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 11:17 PM
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As for the dont you find Unix useful now.

If you say no. You really should note that most of the internet's backbone is supported still by Unix.

Most large banking servers. Unix or a derivative.

Most large scale servers of any kind that have been around for more then 5 years... Unix or a derivative.

I'm not talking your ISP down the street. I'm talking about what makes everything we take for granted now run.


I work for a company that handles ~$150million US a day electronically and that goes up to nearly $300million certain days. Only recently have we found it worthwhile to update our hubs to a NT base. Our core software runs in a Unix Emulator though. Most of our update servers are still pure Unix.

We are a "small" company when it comes to handling money like this and we have the luxury of being able to shut down each hub for a few hours nightly. This allows us to update one hub at a time slowly and thats how it was done.
Most business's that handle anything more run 24/7. You just cant turn it off and install new software.



posted on Sep, 10 2005 @ 11:17 PM
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John Titor did not claim to come back for a year 2038 bug fix. According to Titor:

I was "sent" to get an IBM computer system called the 5100. It was one the first portable computers made and it has the ability to read the older IBM programming langages [sic] in addition to APL and Basic. We need they [sic] system to "debug" various lagacy [sic] computer programs in 2036. UNIX has a problem in 2038.

The last sentence brought the confusion about the "need to fix an UNIX bug". Several months later he clears this up:

I don't believe I ever said I came back looking for a UNIX bug fix. I came back for a computer system. Don't you find UNIX usefull [sic] now?

en.wikipedia.org...

Doesnt this create a bit of confusion? He said that he came to the past to get the computer system to correct the UNIX bug. In the last sentence he didn't awknowledge that fact.


He didn't came to get a patch, he came to get a computer to make a patch...



This is only a problem with 32-bit computers, they have an integer overflow in UNIX by that year. By then the 64-bit systems will be implimented, this overflow error will not occur with the 64-bit systems until the year 292,277,026,596. I highly doubt servers and PCs will be running on the 32-bit system by 2038. They would be obsolete by then.

en.wikipedia.org...



Almost every important computer such as those that controls the MAD system and all the defense systems are running on old computers that are obsolete today...



[edit on 9/10/2005 by GoldEagle]



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