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The American Civil War of 2005 as predicted by John Titor

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posted on Aug, 30 2005 @ 07:54 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
Look at almost ANY hurricane that has hit the United States in the last 50 years. The ONLY difference between them and this one is the fact that the city sits 12 feet below sea level, and will take a long time to drain the flooding from. This is NO different than ANY hurricane that has hit in recent times. As far as the Pentagon being involved, who ELSE is gonna do it? Fed Ex?


How many did this????

More than 95% of Gulf oil production lost...

www.nola.com.../base/news-18/1125430141147720.xml&storylist=louisiana

No such equivilent in US modern times.....

These are just a sampling of other headlines on Drudge....

AIRLINES, LOW ON FUEL, CANCEL HUNDREDS OF FLIGHTS...
GAS SCARE HITS ATLANTA...
OFFICIALS WARN OF STORM'S LONG-TERM HEALTH EFFECTS...
INSURERS PREDICT $26+ BILLION...

The point I am making is that this could very well set the necessary environment for Titor's predictions....As I have stated previously, I am actually a skeptic on this topic. However, I have rather enjoyed treating this somewhat as an intellectual exrecise...

For example, I have never believed any of Titor's predictions to be possible WITHOUT some sort of catalyst that would further encourage an emboldened government tightening personal freedoms in the name of protection and the ensuing "backlash" necessary for a civil war. Thus far, most people have assumed that the war on terror, some NWO conspiracy, or some yet to be revealed fraudulent government act would be that catalyst....All of these have seemed far fetched to me, if not down right ridiculous.

However, now we have something that perhaps is starting to make sense. I say that if we are starting to see these types of headlines in the first 24 hrs in the aftermath of the storm, there is likely far more to experience over the next several days, weeks and months, as the true consequences of this storm play out on the US economy. In the end, I have always believed that all history is about money.

The point I am making is that Titor's war is only possible in the right environment. Remember, he asserts that a slow condition of discord will exist for several years before a full scale civil war is recognized. Perhaps, this event in conjunction with all that has occurred with the 2000 and 2004 presidential elections, 911, and the war on terror, creates just such an environment.

Admittedly, I remain skeptical about all of this.... However, I also admit that my skepticism has been tempered somewhat by these considerations....

As everyone, points out.....time will tell.

One final point....My family survived Hurricane Camille in 1969. The lesson learned there was not that hurricanes are bad, but that what happens afterward is FAR worse....Not even Camille approaches the scale of this storm....mark my words.....no predictions involved, just plain fact.






[edit on 30-8-2005 by loam]




posted on Aug, 30 2005 @ 10:51 PM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
Im around 1/3 to 1/2 cherokee, can hunt, fish, garden, I can kill clean and cook anything, and have been able to since I was 10 years old. My 11 year old can do allmost what I can.

Ok....what does this have to do with anything?

Oh and congrats on being part Native American. So am I. Pure Cherokee blood runs through my family as well. Not sure what this has to do with time travel but.....whatever.


If civil war broke out in America, who ever said All the military would back the Fed. Government?....could citizens poorly armed, poorly supplied, poorly managed, in the woods, Fight the well armed USA military for 10 years?..Ask the Viet Cong...

I should rephrase what I said. Sure we the people could last 10 years, but the damage we'd do compared to the damage the US and UN would do is laughable. What we were supposedly fighting against would just get worse. If you think it's bad now, what do you think it would be like during and after a civil war.
This is all nonsense anyway.
With the way the US is geographically, politically, the size, the population, etc. a Civil War is impossible. There's just no way it could happen in modern times. If something truely catastrophic happened across the whole US and pushed us back 100 or so years, then yeah it could happen.


If authoritys started to arrest people without due process, Are you gonna tell me you would sit idely by and let them Arrest your teenage son for petty offences running the chance of never seeing them again...or your best friend, or wife.....any father would fight and kill before they could allow this to happen.

If this, if that....
Don't say 'If', tell us why. Explain. Why would they start arresting people without due process?
And once they finished arresting everyone, then what? Do you support the theory of a NWO?


Crime in the USA is at a thrity year low......then why are we moving more and more toward a policed state/militerized state.

Are you talking about the WOT?
People always complain about this, but never offer any solutions. If you were leader of a country, what would you do to stop terrorism? I really want to know.


What if posting to this thread gets you the label of "Enemy Cobatant"...and its off to Gitmo you go.

What if it doesn;t?


Tazering people to death is a abomination against a free democracy[unless its a 1 on 1 confrantation]

I agree!
So is commiting crimes however....


Preemtive War is a abomination against a free democracy

In most cases, yeah.


Gitmo is a abomination against a free democracy

No, it's not.


torture is a abomination against a free democracy

No, it's an abomination against humans. (and if you think the US is bad, you need to do so serious reading)


Using the military to police our civilian population is a amomination against a free democracy

Umm...yeah.

Not sure where this came from

(except in the cases of natural and/or manmade disasters - then it's necessary)


bringing POW's from Afganistan/Iraq is against the Geneva Convention

Actually, it's not. You mean bringing nonPOWs.


Now Everyone is loosing rights at all levels, at a unprecedented pace

Ok, I give.
Tell me which rights you've personally lost at an unprecedented pace and why.



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 07:09 AM
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www.freerepublic.com...

If this is true, it will be a major disaster (thousands of deaths) and if there is a major terrorist attack with it... like a nuclear one like a lot of people think will happen in september...

The population will be shaken high...



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 08:31 AM
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ok so prisoners captured in the War on Terror are not pow's? I agree to disagree. POW's at Gitmo do not have due process, they have been labeled as enemy combatance= POW's, they have no contact with family, or attorneys, and now they are to be tried by private military tribunals...ok if they are to be tried by military, then that says they are military so they should be labeled POW thus making Gitmo illeagal.

There was a civil war in america once, there is a great big pecan tree by my house, it has been struck by lightning at least 6 times that I know of. My point is if it happened once it can happen again. We live in the information age, I feel it would be easier for a civil war to happen now, than in the past. Especilly if things like the supposed 9/11 cover-up was to be proven true, or the other things about Rove traderous revelations about our undercover spies, because her husband would not get on board the fasifying the evidence to goto war in Iraq, the other ingrediant is the downfall of our economy[witch has started]...

You keep saying this is imposible, or thats impposible, these are your opinions, and Not Fact, thanks for your opinions. but if you said the world was flat..lol its your opinion.

Our geography and the division of our population plus, all the differant ethnic groups here in the USA is a Prefect situation for a civil war, and the Modern times, like I said its the info age, we as a population know things, or can know things the Government would rather us forget. Like the questions surrounding 9/11, rovegate, open borders, or little things like 6 years ago the "new jobs created list" listed manufacturing jobs, as jobs like factory, car, airplane, trains and all the things that go into producing hard products that can be exported, now these manufacturing jobs list include jobs at mcdonnells, wendys, joes hot dog stand, or things that can't be exported.

My fight against terrorizm would be
1 I would stop giving Isreal $17 million dollars a day, and quit giving there our Unwavering support. This would stop Isreal from oppressing the palistinians. thus eleminating 50% of the reasons that Arab countrys don't like us
2 I would close the borders. Remember the the 9/11 hijackers were here illeagaly.
3 I would have put the $200 billion plus that we have spent in Iraq into alterenive energy research and devlopment, thus lessining our dependance on middle eastern oil. i could go on an on about this one.

Do you as a American want the rest of the world......How can you defend the USA from torturing people....in this war the USA is in do you think they will not capture US soldiers?,,,,if we torture there people what are they gonna do to our pow, or do you consider our soldiers captured POW's or NonPOW's...how can you flip-flop here...there soldiers are not pow, but ours are


Rights lost
1 right to assemble...[Waco, Utal Rave, Protesters at the RNC convention in NYC]
2 property rights greatly deminished[recent supreme court ruling for the Corperations and Against citizens]
3 the right to sue greatly deminished[bush's tort reform]
4 the protection from search and seizure[patriot act]
5 arrest without due process[enemy cobatant]
6 the list goes on, but you think everything is cool here.

I don't think I can open your eyes ThatJustWierd, the best I can do is to try to plant a seed in your thick scull, had hopefully it grows, and we could work together to avoid this coming civil war, but you believing how you do, there is not much chance of that happening.

peace



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 09:14 AM
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My opinion of a possibility of a civil war in the US, could come from the south, taking in consideration that a natural disaster just occurred in our soil and the devastation will force 100 of thousand of people to move from their home and most of them have not home anymore, I wonder if this will bring an unrest of some kind.

Lets take in consideration that most of these people have nothing, not jobs, homes, possessions, you name it.

How long it will take for people to start to get antsy of things don't get fix fast enough.

How about the financial stress on our economy, perhaps we should turn our eyes to the south now and see if that will start something that resemble what Mr. Titor predicted.





Just my opinion.



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by LDragonFire
ok so prisoners captured in the War on Terror are not pow's? I agree to disagree. POW's at Gitmo do not have due process, they have been labeled as enemy combatance= POW's, they have no contact with family, or attorneys, and now they are to be tried by private military tribunals...ok if they are to be tried by military, then that says they are military so they should be labeled POW thus making Gitmo illeagal.

I honestly don't know where to begin with this.
So, I'm just going to get you started, and hopefully you'll do more of your own research. It's more complicated than your making it...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...



There was a civil war in america once, there is a great big pecan tree by my house, it has been struck by lightning at least 6 times that I know of. My point is if it happened once it can happen again.

Fortunately for us, civilizations continues to progress and we become more and more modern. Just as it's extremely unlikely that horses will be our main mode of transportation again, it's extremely unlikely that there will ever be a civil war.


We live in the information age, I feel it would be easier for a civil war to happen now, than in the past.

lol, living in a modern information age means the exact opposite. We become lazier and more willing to accept status quo.


Especilly if things like the supposed 9/11 cover-up was to be proven true, or the other things about Rove traderous revelations about our undercover spies, because her husband would not get on board the fasifying the evidence to goto war in Iraq

No, because we have so much resources available at our fingertips, things like that will almost certainly never be "proven" true. People would just sit at their computer and argue-debunk-argue some more, for months on end. (just look at this thread, look at all the 9/11 threads on this site).


the other ingrediant is the downfall of our economy[witch has started]...

A civil war didn't break out during the Great Depression, what makes you think one would break out now?


You keep saying this is imposible, or thats impposible, these are your opinions, and Not Fact, thanks for your opinions. but if you said the world was flat..lol its your opinion.

No I said it would only be possible if something truely catastophic happened and either left this whole country in shambles and/or the government was no longer able to function.
Just really take the time to think about this for a sec.
1. Who would start it? Is the government just going to start going around randomly killing people for no reason just to start a civil war? If you think so, why do you think so? You may say they're doing it slowly by taking away our rights. Ok so tell us what do you think they plan to accomplish? Are they doing it for no reason?
Are the people going to start it? Most people are against war period. Do you really think they'll start one on their own soil? People trying to start one, or feel that the government has left them with no choice will get no support from that majority of Americans who like their lives right now. The vast majority of Americans would also come to realize that things would get worse not better should a civil war break out.

2. Why? The US has been through rough times before. But we're a civilized people and work through our problems. Whether you want to believe it or not, the vast majority of the people would rather see our problems solved in a civilized way. So why go to war anyway?


Our geography and the division of our population plus, all the differant ethnic groups here in the USA is a Prefect situation for a civil war,

LOL
Wow dude, you've got it completely backwards. That is exactly why a civil war will not break out. You have way too many belief systems among the people. Political and religious. These systems would clash to no end should a civil war try to break out and mounting any effective war against the government would be.....highly ineffective.
As far as geography. Well the US is too big for the government or the people to be effective.
It's also too mixed. You can have people for and against the government living right next to each other for years and not know it. Will these neighbors just start killing each other? No.

Titor said the war would be City vs. Country. Well that doesn't make sense. Most people live in the suburbs. Which is neither.


and the Modern times, like I said its the info age, we as a population know things, or can know things the Government would rather us forget. Like the questions surrounding 9/11, rovegate, open borders, or little things like 6 years ago the "new jobs created list" listed manufacturing jobs, as jobs like factory, car, airplane, trains and all the things that go into producing hard products that can be exported, now these manufacturing jobs list include jobs at mcdonnells, wendys, joes hot dog stand, or things that can't be exported.

You overestimate the attention span of an average American.


My fight against terrorizm would be
1 I would stop giving Isreal $17 million dollars a day, and quit giving there our Unwavering support. This would stop Isreal from oppressing the palistinians. thus eleminating 50% of the reasons that Arab countrys don't like us

lol

Let me ask you something, Isreal has had 9 wars (including 2 infatadas) since it's become a country. Why do you think that is?


2 I would close the borders. Remember the the 9/11 hijackers were here illeagaly.

I would agree with you, but this would just piss people off and people would complain about us being isolationist.


3 I would have put the $200 billion plus that we have spent in Iraq into alterenive energy research and devlopment, thus lessining our dependance on middle eastern oil. i could go on an on about this one.

Excellent



Do you as a American want the rest of the world


What do you mean?


How can you defend the USA from torturing people.

NOT ONCE have I ever defended the torturing of anyone by any country. I'm not sure where you get this crap from.


in this war the USA is in do you think they will not capture US soldiers?,,,,if we torture there people what are they gonna do to our pow, or do you consider our soldiers captured POW's or NonPOW's...how can you flip-flop here...there soldiers are not pow, but ours are

umm....
Wha??


Rights lost
1 right to assemble...[Waco, Utal Rave, Protesters at the RNC convention in NYC]

The largest protests in US history have been protests against the Iraqi war.


2 property rights greatly deminished[recent supreme court ruling for the Corperations and Against citizens]

How old are you? These laws that have recently come to light have been around since the '50s and '60s, THAT'S when you (or people) should have been voicing their opinions about them.


3 the right to sue greatly deminished[bush's tort reform]

I'm sorry. I fail to see how this is a bad thing.
You obviously don't own a business or know someone who does, so you wouldn't know how ridiculous the lawsuits have become and how much it's costing people.


4 the protection from search and seizure[patriot act]

So did you get this from off the internet or did you actually take the time to read the PA?
And what makes you think the PA takes that right away? People have been getting searched years before any PA.


5 arrest without due process[enemy cobatant]

I thought we were talking about US citizen rights?

As shown in the links in the begining of this post, there's still alot of confusion and alot of things still being worked out concerning this.


6 the list goes on, but you think everything is cool here.

By all means, continue with the list.


I just read my previous post again. Nope. Didn't see it.
Didn't see where I said "everything is cool".
I asked you to name the rights you've lost. Unlike Roth, you've actually answered.



I don't think I can open your eyes ThatJustWierd, the best I can do is to try to plant a seed in your thick scull

You don't have to open my eyes. They've been open. I've been all across this country. I've seen many things. More than most people will ever get a chance to see. In having traveled across this country many times, I can say with great accuracy that a civil war is highly unlikely. There's not even enough resources to sustain such a war.
And you say "thick scull (sic)" like it's a bad thing. It helps keep the BS like Titor out

Seriously though, reading and research is good. It's not good to be so gullible.


and we could work together to avoid this coming civil war

See what I mean. This is part of the reason why there won't be a civil war. People would do everything in their power to stop it.


but you believing how you do, there is not much chance of that happening.

So tell me, how do I believe?
I've said many times, I have no problem with the Titor story. It's good. I just happen to realize it's fiction. Since when is realizing a fictional story is fiction a bad thing?



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 03:16 PM
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Here in Quebec, the gasoline +50% of the price in one day!!!

It's very



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 06:04 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
I asked you to name the rights you've lost. Unlike Roth, you've actually answered.

Disgusting.

-- The USA Patriot Act gives the government sweeping new enforcement powers, many of which had been sought by federal law enforcement long before September 11, but were rejected by Congress, and which are now being applied without meaningful judicial review. These new powers apply to all federal investigations, whether related to terrorism or not, and thus have very broad implications.

-- Changes in immigration policies and procedures are potentially as important as the provisions of the USA Patriot Act. Many of the Arab and Muslim men who have been detained have been held on extremely technical visa violations that would not have been prosecuted before September 11.

-- Many of the detainees have since been deported amid complete secrecy, effectively denying the individual’s right to legal counsel.

-- People of Arab and Muslim background are being treated as guilty unless they can prove themselves innocent.

-- Ethnic, national, and religious discrimination is widespread within the nation’s air travel system, even though the airlines have been advised by the Department of Transportation that such discrimination is illegal.

-- Mechanisms are in place for members of the public to file complaints about discrimination in air travel, and these complaints are thoroughly investigated by federal agencies.


1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF SPEECH
• The Patriot Act broadly expands the official definition ofterrorism, so that many domestic groups that engage innonviolent civil disobedience could very well find themselveslabeled as terrorists.
• The Government may now prosecute librarians or keepersof any other records if they reveal that the governmentrequested information on their clients or members in thecourse of an investigation. It has become a crime for theseindividuals to try to safeguard your privacy or to tell youthat you are under investigation.

1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION
• Government agents may now monitor the First Amendment-protected activities of religious and political institutions, andthen infiltrate these groups with no suspicion of criminalactivity. This is a return to domestic spying on law-abidingreligious and political groups.
• You may now be the subject of a government investigationsimply because of the political, activist, or advocacygroups you are involved in, or the statements you makewithin these groups.

1st AMENDMENT RIGHT TO ACCESSGOVERNMENT INFORMATION
• A U.S. Department of Justice directive actively encouragesfederal, state, and local officials to resist and/or limit accessto government records through Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) requests.
• The Government has conducted immigration hearings insecret behind closed doors. Such proceedings were onceopen to the public. Hundreds, if not thousands, of immigrants have already been deported in secret.

4th AMENDMENT FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES &SEIZURES
• Law Enforcement authorities may now conduct secret searches and wiretaps in your home or officewithout showing “probable cause.” They need only to claim that intelligence gathering is “a significantpurpose” of their intrusion, even when the primary goal is ordinary law enforcement. They may alsomonitor where and to whom you send and receive e-mail, or where you go on the Internet, recordingevery e-mail address and website you have been in contact with.
• Law Enforcement may now demand any personal records held by any source including your doctor,employer, accountant, or library. All they have to do is claim that it is related to an investigation into“terrorism.” The record keepers may not reveal that your records were provided to the government.
• Judicial oversight of secret searches has been effectively minimized. The Patriot Act directs judges toconsent to secret searches based only on the Government’s assertion that a “significant” purpose ofan investigation is gathering information related to “terrorism,” as the government defines it.

5th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS & FREEDOM FROM BEING HELD WITHOUT CHARGE
• Americans can now be jailed without a formal charge & without the right to confront the witnesses orevidence against them. American citizens are now being held in military jails without charge and with-out a clear path of appeal for their indefinite confinement.
• Hundreds of Arab, Muslim and South Asian men were rounded up in the Ashcroft raids following September 11, and held for weeks without charges until all were cleared of terrorism charges

6th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION
• Hundreds of U.S. residents have been detained for months at a time, and denied access to the adviceand advocacy of an attorney. The Government may now monitor conversations between attorneys &clients in federal jails.
• The Bush Administration filed papers in court that arguing that an American citizen held in a militaryjail without charge should be denied access to legal counsel because such access would interfere withthe process of his interrogation.

6th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL
• The U.S. Government may now jail its residents and citizens indefinitely without charge & without a public trial.

8th AMENDMENT FREEDOM FROM CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENTS
• The U.S. Government has taken into custody individuals they identify as “material witnesses,” trans-ported them across the country, and held them for months in solitary confinement without charge orcontact with their family.
• According to the Justice Department’s own Inspector General, immigrant men rounded up in theAshcroft raids following September 11 and held in the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, NYwere subjected to a pattern of “physical and verbal abuse.”

14th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO EQUAL PROTECTION
• Over 82,000 men from Arab, Muslim and South Asian countries registered with the Governmentunder the Special Registration program. Over 13,000 are now in deportation proceedings. Nonehave been charged with terrorism.

[edit on 31-8-2005 by Roth Joint]



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 06:53 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
My opinion of a possibility of a civil war in the US, could come from the south, taking in consideration that a natural disaster just occurred in our soil and the devastation will force 100 of thousand of people to move from their home and most of them have not home anymore, I wonder if this will bring an unrest of some kind.

Lets take in consideration that most of these people have nothing, not jobs, homes, possessions, you name it.

How long it will take for people to start to get antsy of things don't get fix fast enough.

How about the financial stress on our economy, perhaps we should turn our eyes to the south now and see if that will start something that resemble what Mr. Titor predicted.





Just my opinion.


New Orlean's economy is crap. I can't imagine the south taking a big hit because no one will be able to go see boobies this feburary.



posted on Aug, 31 2005 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by Zaphod58
Look at almost ANY hurricane that has hit the United States in the last 50 years. The ONLY difference between them and this one is the fact that the city sits 12 feet below sea level, and will take a long time to drain the flooding from. This is NO different than ANY hurricane that has hit in recent times. As far as the Pentagon being involved, who ELSE is gonna do it? Fed Ex?


and


Originally posted by Frosty

New Orlean's economy is crap. I can't imagine the south taking a big hit because no one will be able to go see boobies this feburary.


Hate to keep driving this point home, but we are only beginning to see the destabilizing effect this storm may have on the country....



At Least Ten U.S. Airports Face Closure Due to Jet Fuel Shortages

Armbrust Aviation Group
Press Release

August 31, 2005… Airlines and oil companies are working on plans to supply jet fuel to at least ten U.S. airports that could be shut down due to a lack of jet fuel caused by refinery and pipeline shutdowns from hurricane Katrina. The airports in most jeopardy for closure include Atlanta, Charlotte, Ft. Lauderdale, Ft. Myers, Orlando, Tampa, Washington Dulles and West Palm Beach.

AAG has learned that ChevronTexaco and Shell had cargoes loaded prior to the shutdowns destined for Florida ports. However, with the Colonial and Plantation pipelines shutdown due to a lost of power it could be sometime for shipments to reach airports from Atlanta to Washington D.C.

With future supply uncertain, airlines are working on plans to allocate jet fuel at critically short airports. “While some airports may have up to five days of supply we have to expect that we won’t receive additional shipments for some time. We either run down to flumes or we try to make it last as long as possible,” said one airline fuel manager. Today, airlines are working on plans to allocate fuel in hopes of extending available supply at problem locations.

Initial reports vary as to the extent of damage to Gulf Coast refining. But a longer term problem may not be refining infrastructure but providing shelter for refinery workers. “One of our refineries is scheduled to be back up soon but our real problem is finding housing for our workers. Most of their homes are destroyed or under water. Unless we can solve the housing problem we will not be fully operational for some time,” said one major oil company representative.

www.airportbusiness.com...





[edit on 31-8-2005 by loam]



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 12:46 AM
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Someone needs to see the truth and any idiot that doesn't see the truth is just that, a fool.

Times have changed and the impossible is possible I belive something big and bad is going to happen and I am not refering to Titor as the refrences for my statements.

Instead of coming to ATS and trying to contradict every and any thread do yourself a favor and do some research with that time.

There is so much going on that all you closed minded fools don't see and yet they spend thier times in these conspiracy sites to try to blurr the truth.


War in the middle east for oil and a suppose natural hurricane stops our American Oil sources, LOL!!!!

Its all connected and why all of the sudden the national terroist warning elevated? Does anyone even have the idea why some American Politicians were being held in Russia?

Katrina,katrina...there once was a group of wise men whom genetically created a girl and her name was Katrina.

(Think about that one)




[edit on 1-9-2005 by 2ndSEED]



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 05:03 AM
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well I found this one link, knowing this is off topic but Katrina is the name:


entertainment.tv.yahoo.com...

weird story.
but if it is still link with cloning then...



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 05:15 AM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

Originally posted by LDragonFire
The right to sue greatly deminished [bush's tort reform]

I'm sorry. I fail to see how this is a bad thing.
You obviously don't own a business or know someone who does, so you wouldn't know how ridiculous the lawsuits have become and how much it's costing people.

Yeah, so what you are actually saying is that you agree that individuals who have gotten permanently disabled by the use of medication such as the painkiller Vioxx (or even worse relatives of those who died because of taking it) should be taken away their right to sue the company (Merck & Co) that manufactured this drug. Yeah, right...


query.nytimes.com...
In a Shift, Bush Moves to Block Medical Suits

By ROBERT PEAR
Published: July 25, 2004

The Bush administration has been going to court to block lawsuits by consumers who say they have been injured by prescription drugs and medical devices.

The administration contends that consumers cannot recover damages for such injuries if the products have been approved by the Food and Drug Administration. In court papers, the Justice Department acknowledges that this position reflects a ''change in governmental policy,'' and it has persuaded some judges to accept its arguments, most recently scoring a victory in the federal appeals court in Philadelphia.


Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

Originally posted by LDragonFire
The protection from search and seizure [patriot act]

So did you get this from off the internet or did you actually take the time to read the PA? And what makes you think the PA takes that right away? People have been getting searched years before any PA.

Ofcourse, nothing has changed.


That’s perhaps why civil liberties organizations such as the ACLU and the Bill of Rights Defense and many conservatives on the political right fearful over the abuse of power, had to bring the Senate under heavy pressure to set four-year expiration dates on the most controversial provisions of the PATRIOT Act.

That’s perhaps why (because of that pressure) civil rights protections were temporarely added and included a higher standard of proof for the Government in demanding library and business records, greater judicial oversight and increased reporting to Congress on antiterrorism operations, time restrictions on the use of secret searches, and limits on roving wiretaps.


Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird

Originally posted by LDragonFire
Property rights greatly diminished [recent supreme court ruling for the Corporations and Against citizens]

How old are you? These laws that have recently come to light have been around since the '50s and '60s, THAT'S when you (or people) should have been voicing their opinions about them.


How old are you ThatsJustWeird?

Come on man, I know you’ve heard of Bill, you know, 'Bill of Rights', the Fifth Amendment:
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

So there’s only one exception to the rule: if society is to have any public infrastructure. That’s “public use.” It plainly says: use by the public, NOT by private businesses or individuals. Highways, schools, government offices, parks, public stadiums, urban renewal, etc. However, the Supreme Court recently violated the U.S. Constitution to change the interpretation of the words "public use" into "public benefit." Under this interpretation, every home, farm and business in America has NO protection whatsoever against Government seizure.

There simply is NO freedom, no right in our Constitution that can withstand an assault like this from our out-of-control judges if we allow this ruling to stand. And here is where Titor comes in: in spite of what many elitists would have you believe, the U.S. Supreme Court DOESN’T have the final word on anything in our nation, unless we let them (or listen to ThatsJustWeird), nor are any of us obliged to respect any ruling as final. This cannot, and should not, be allowed to stand. Period.

I can already see Titor’s words coming to pass:
“They were betting that people wanted security instead of freedom and they were wrong.”

[edit on 1-9-2005 by Roth Joint]



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 10:05 AM
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Disgusting.

I completely agree Roth. You are disgusting. I wasn't talking about that question, I was talking about the many questions I have asked you throughout this thread.
And with that question, I didn't ask you to copy and paste something, I asked what rights you've personally lost.
First, when did those rights start being taken away? And how has your lifestyle changed from when they first started being taken away to now?




Originally posted by Roth Joint
Yeah, so what you are actually saying is that you agree that individuals who have gotten permanently disabled by the use of medication such as the painkiller Vioxx (or even worse relatives of those who died because of taking it) should be taken away their right to sue the company (Merck & Co) that manufactured this drug. Yeah, right...

Stop with the BS Roth.
You know exactly what I'm talking about Roth and that's not it.
I'm talking about the 1000s of ridiculous lawsuits that pop up every year wasting the courts valuable time, like suing a fast food joint because you're fat.


Ofcourse, nothing has changed.


That’s perhaps why civil liberties organizations such as the ACLU and the Bill of Rights Defense and many conservatives on the political right fearful over the abuse of power, had to bring the Senate under heavy pressure to set four-year expiration dates on the most controversial provisions of the PATRIOT Act.

That’s perhaps why (because of that pressure) civil rights protections were temporarely added and included a higher standard of proof for the Government in demanding library and business records, greater judicial oversight and increased reporting to Congress on antiterrorism operations, time restrictions on the use of secret searches, and limits on roving wiretaps.

This isn't what we were talking about and....

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. You're trying to demonized the government (as if it needs it) and show how we're living in a police state yet you just do the opposite. If we were living in a police state, why did the big bad government buckled under pressure?
Why did they put steps in place to prevent abuse of power instead of abusing power?

Everything you said is a good thing. What are you trying to argue?


Come on man, I know you’ve heard of Bill, you know, 'Bill of Rights', the Fifth Amendment:
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

So there’s only one exception to the rule: if society is to have any public infrastructure. That’s “public use.” It plainly says: use by the public, NOT by private businesses or individuals. Highways, schools, government offices, parks, public stadiums, urban renewal, etc. However, the Supreme Court recently violated the U.S. Constitution to change the interpretation of the words "public use" into "public benefit." Under this interpretation, every home, farm and business in America has NO protection whatsoever against Government seizure.


Figured you didn't read the opinion.
What the Supreme Court did was just uphold 100 year laws. The decision actually didn't change a thing.
Here's the whole opinion
[url]http://wid.ap.org/documents/scotus/050623kelo.pdf

There simply is NO freedom, no right in our Constitution that can withstand an assault like this from our out-of-control judges if we allow this ruling to stand.
This is why I asked dragon how old he is because this ruling has been in place for decades. This also wasn't the first time it's been challanged. It's been upheld every time however.
So why are you just now complaining about it?


And here is where Titor comes in: in spite of what many elitists would have you believe, the U.S. Supreme Court DOESN’T have the final word on anything in our nation, unless we let them (or listen to ThatsJustWeird), nor are any of us obliged to respect any ruling as final. This cannot, and should not, be allowed to stand. Period.

Can you give my exact quotes on this?
If not, don't mention my name.
Also, this has nothing to do with what Titor said.


I can already see Titor’s words coming to pass:
“They were betting that people wanted security instead of freedom and they were wrong.”

This is the only thing that Titor has come close to being correct about. Since this quote was about the start of the Civil War he's incorrect about that, but even though some people would choose security over freedom, I don't think that goes for the majority of the US. So anyone in the gov betting on that would be wrong.
In theory.
In reality, should something huge happens. I'm just not sure.



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 12:34 PM
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A few months back I wondered how such a scenario would play out. Yes, gas prices were on the rise but I thought that this wouldn't lead to a civil war.

Then its nothing but Cindy Sheehan and I still thought this wouldn't lead to a civil war.

But a natural disaster is different.

A city gone? Oil production disrupted? An event we could have dealt with beforehand? Martial law? Looting? Revenge?

I go back to the comment that the war starts in 2005. Wars usually start as skirmishes and then evolve into the monstrosities that they are. What if we are witnessing the "birth pangs" of our next civil war.

Man, would I hate to be in politics right now!

Wait til gas hits $5/gal in your area for an extended period of time. (unless, of course, it already has!)



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 03:39 PM
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OMG, It's begun hasn't it



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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Maybe... and they are sending 40 000 others troops in Louisiana to control the people... and if another 911 happens in september, like some think it will be a nuclear one, the country will be all on martial law and what could happen after this...



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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Whenever the National guar is more concerned anout personal property over human life...it tells you where the governments priorities are.

Justifiable civil uprest is the blaring sound of a Civil War. Yet how many will still try to deny this is happening?



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
OMG, It's begun hasn't it


The pieces keep falling into place.....I am still a skeptic, but a little less each passing day. Very little of what we believed about our great nation appears to remain true. Where is that shining bright light of freedom, prosperity and hope? The fog definitely appears to be rolling in.....

I hope we are all wrong...

[edit on 1-9-2005 by loam]



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 06:32 PM
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I think the term "civil war" isn't excatly accurate. I mean I can see something brewing between the ultra religious right and the lefties but I don't think that will amount to a civil war. correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a civil war a war among the people of a country? I would be more inclined to say we are heading towards a second revolution. Where the citizens of the US rise up against the government not against each other. Considering how corrupt and broken our system has become this is can almost be classified as a certainty.



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