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The American Civil War of 2005 as predicted by John Titor

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posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 05:45 PM
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TJW, I'm sure you're a nice guy, so I hope you don't take this the wrong way because we're all trying to get to the truth of the matter, no? It really does appear to me that you don't bother doing any research or ask any questions that might lead to a better understanding. I certainly read everything I link to, what kind of question is that? For the first link, from the sound of things, you read the top of the page and then discarded it. Please take another look and notice how many deal specifically with the SPP in addition to NAFTA. In fact, read the resolutions themselves when you have time. I'm also assuming you didn't go to the homepage. For those visual learners, there's a big colorful map with links to make things easier.

Perhaps you're confused on the point that NAFTA/NAU/SPP are all part of the same entity. NAFTA laid the groundwork by removing tariffs and quotas and the like, while the SPP builds upon that. NAU is the name given to the logical end result of the SPP.

Now, I know this isn't the place to be discussing the NAU/SPP as there are plenty of threads for that, but bare with me.

I never said illegal immigration was not a concern. Immigration plain and simple is not a concern of the SPP. From the horse's mouth:


Immigration reform is a legislative matter currently being debated in Congress and is not being dealt with in the SPP. Likewise, trade disputes between the United States, Canada, and Mexico are resolved in the NAFTA and WTO mechanisms and not the SPP.

And what is Congress doing about it? Absolutely nothing of any consequence, if you ask me.

Nobody is debating that the US is a nation of immigrants, this is specifically about the US/Mexican border and the cause and affect of illegal immigration. Problem...reaction...solution. Addressing border security does nothing to ease the root of the problem. Mexico should, first and foremost, create a better standard of living of its people. We can agree that this is why they're illegally crossing in the first place? They're not exactly dashing across in BMW's.

Under the SPP, it's been proposed to grant the Mexican government funds in order to equalize the disparity. Sounds good, right? Less disparity = less incentive to leave. There's more to it than that, there always is


Who makes these kind of decisions, you ask? Now THAT'S the heart of it. The SPP is managed by a group of people who are appointed, not elected. So, a group of unelected people with no oversight are expected to, in return, appoint "commissions, task forces, and working groups" which also bypass any public decision making or debate. All in the name to "harmonize" and "integrate" the national policies of the three countries. Coupled with this is the fact that essential infrastructure is being transferred AWAY from citizens as roads, water supplies, and utilities are sold to foreign investors and multinationals. Sounds pretty unconstitutional to me.



You haven't shown me that's it's not an internet/conspiracy theory. All you guys do is make predictions and conjectures about what you think such and such means. None of it is backed by facts however. Fear mongering is what it is.

Is CNN's Lou Dobbs credible enough? The fact that 14 states have legislation on the table against the SPP and 3 have already passed legislation? I'm not sure what else you need to know that the SPP is real, it even has a .gov website. Education is what it is.



Money is a powerful thing you know...

Money is the root of all evil.

Thanks for the welcome, TJW!




posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 05:57 PM
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4,000 characters max!? D'oh!

Accuracy in Media: The Coming North American Parliament
Rep. Virgil Goode, R-Va. on the SPP
Council on Foreign Relations: Building a North American Community

Now, this thread is about Titor, right?

Here's where I'm going with this.

The SPP is slated for completion by 2010--during the next presidential term. Titor seemed to place a lot of weight on dates that had to do with elections and elections themselves;



-I would use the word 'elections' a bit cautiously. Perhaps it's easier now to see a civil war in your future?
-Real disruptions in world events begin with the destabilization of the West as a result of degrading US foreign policy and consistency.This becomes apparent around 2004 as civil unrest develops near the next presidential election.
-Civil war in the United States will start in 2005. The conflict flares up and down, but the year 2008 was a general date when everyone realized the world they were living in was over.


I believe this should be taken in context with the SPP/NAU. It's going to be very interesting what presidential "candidates" have to say on the subject as the issue will have to come up at some point. Seeing as how this is very much a question of constitutional legitimacy, what the next president decides to do is crucial. One can already see the controversy that it's stirring up.

What surprises me is that (while considerable) there's not a bigger outcry against the SPP and demands for more accountability. There seems to be a great deal of apathy and being intentionally left in the dark. Perhaps it's meant to happen. John said worldlines converge and while I'm leaning more towards him being a hoax, when you study electromagnetic wave propagation, it does bring up the interesting question of fate. This diagram more or less depicts what I'm trying to say:

Notice where the waves converge.

The John Titor story is simply something I cannot accept without tangible proof. Like I stated previously, he may have merely had a firm understanding of how things were developing. That begs the question however, how did he know some of these things? Inside knowledge? This was even before 9/11, mind you. Just out of curiosity, is there anybody who believes he really was/is from the future? I suppose everything will become clear by 2008 and especially by 2010.

In the immortal words of Dr Seuss, "Oh, the things you'll see..."



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 06:08 PM
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The Question isn't whether or not the North American Union is real, the question is; Would American Citicens take up Arms against the govt. in order to prevent the idea from coming to fruition, thereby starting the 2nd US Civil War?

This comes back to the SAME REASON the 1st US Civil War was fought in the first place... STATES RIGHTS. The US Constitution gives States more power than the Central Govt...but since the 1st Civil War the Federal Govt has taken away most of this power for itself. Now at least 1/3 of the states are opposed to this union (more will come) ... Will the Federal Govt. force these states to accept the NAU?



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 07:10 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
2. You guys really think I'm a mind reader. X pulled this same crap. My quote was "I'd like to see you debunk the facts. Since you say you have evidence...." you quote that in your post then put up two links. Since the discussion was on evidence, how am I not supposed to think you were using those as evidence??


i was using it as evidence "per se". however i was not using it as "proof positive", thats all i meant. the theories of the NAU are many, some with baseless claims and some with very compelling evidence to support their claims. i dont want you to assume i can cover the entire issue in one post, im not that good:/

you stated this earlier...



I asked for proof and info not more garbage. Why would you link to something on this site? That doesn't make any sense.


ATS is a channel, most of what is on this site came from outside sources. to assume its all garbage, is very close minded. alot of people bust thier ass to find credible sources to support their claims. and i personally choose to hear those kind of people out.



regarding the Truckers strike....



1. There's not even secondary media reporting on this. There's absolutely no evidence at all that a strike is taking place.


this is a problem, if no form of media is covering this event, how are we to assess the actual numbers of those that are involved????? currently at this moment in time as of 7:38pm i can not find any up to date information regarding this strike. now this can mean a few things- the strike was abandoned or its still taking place and a media blackout has it under control.

we have proof that this strike was to take place, but no evidence that it is taking place.

funny... this actually ties in with a previous argument we had a while back. if the media is capable of causing a blackout(even when it in your own backyard). why is so hard to believe that "waco type events" are not being handled in a similar fashion?

currently if the strike is indeed taking place. the only people that truly know about it are the truckers. same thing for those involved in "waco" events, only they will know the truth of it.

if this strike is happening this will be a testament to the capacity of thier influence of your(our) reality.



EZapata
great posts
and welcome to ATS


its funny you mentioned the big colorful map. i was searching every where yesterday for that(for TJW)... but couldnt find it.


Accuracy in Media: The Coming North American Parliament


North Americans might be able to enjoy "new rights" essential to "human flourishing" such as gay marriage.


when i hear things like this, it just pisses me off. the key word being "might", its like thier trying to sell something, but refusing to give you any guarantees.

"just think the NAU might be the greatest thing to every happen." yea yea and one day grasshoppers might run around with BB guns. its a damn marketing tool.





Just out of curiosity, is there anybody who believes he really was/is from the future?


personally im on the fence, but i have yet to find any evidence to prove he is fraud. but "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" so i continue to mull it over in my head.



Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
Now at least 1/3 of the states are opposed to this union (more will come) ... Will the Federal Govt. force these states to accept the NAU?



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 08:15 PM
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Waco types events... there are waco types events, and you had one big just last week, Virginia Tech massacre which is totally a black-op to push gun control. Now, HR 1022 was introduced, go see there for more details and Kucinich introduced a legislation banning all handguns.

The story of Virginia Tech is not coherent, and everyone is seeing that, including the family victims are angry at the government.

And Ed Brown just have been convicted of 5 years of jail, so soon the FEDs are gonna to show up, bringing a fight between militias and the government.



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 10:47 PM
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*sigh*
You guys aren't listening.....

1. Screaming about the formation of a NAU is clear and deliberate fear mongering. You guys have yet to show otherwise. Saying the NAU will do this and do that is supported by absolutely NOTHING. There is NO credible info anyway about the formation of a NAU or what it'll do. What NAFTA does and what the SPP discusses (apparently some people think the SPP is a piece of paper agreed upon or something concrete) is not even close to what these websites are saying about the NAU. So please tell me where you guys are getting this info on the NAU?


2.

Originally posted by EZapataFor the first link, from the sound of things, you read the top of the page and then discarded it. Please take another look and notice how many deal specifically with the SPP in addition to NAFTA.

How would I know what they're voting on if I just read the title. I read through all of that.

I'm also assuming you didn't go to the homepage. For those visual learners, there's a big colorful map with links to make things easier.

Also saw that.
Umm....my point still stands.
My quote was: "Those states have voted against the NAFTA (and hey, feel free to add the SPP in here too). And they have voted AGAINST it, that would be a good thing."

Not exactly sure what the whole point of this is....
Pretty sure it's already well know people don't agree with NAFTA or the SPP.

Also and most importantly...
If I'm doing research on a subject.....why in the world would I go to a completely biased site to do that research? Do you really think you'll get good clear unbiased information about any NAU from a site called stopthenau?? Or do you think you'll get what they want you to see?
lol


I never said illegal immigration was not a concern. Immigration plain and simple is not a concern of the SPP. From the horse's mouth:


Immigration reform is a legislative matter currently being debated in Congress and is not being dealt with in the SPP. Likewise, trade disputes between the United States, Canada, and Mexico are resolved in the NAFTA and WTO mechanisms and not the SPP.

And what is Congress doing about it? Absolutely nothing of any consequence, if you ask me.

Again, why would immigration be a concern? And what does congress have to do with anything? Congress is debating on what to do with illegal immigration. Immigration itself is not a problem. I'm still not sure what you're trying to get at.


Nobody is debating that the US is a nation of immigrants, this is specifically about the US/Mexican border and the cause and affect of illegal immigration. Problem...reaction...solution. Addressing border security does nothing to ease the root of the problem. Mexico should, first and foremost, create a better standard of living of its people. We can agree that this is why they're illegally crossing in the first place? They're not exactly dashing across in BMW's.

Under the SPP, it's been proposed to grant the Mexican government funds in order to equalize the disparity. Sounds good, right? Less disparity = less incentive to leave. There's more to it than that, there always is

Here's your chance to be different. Most people just state a problem or just state what they disagree with without providing any alternative solutions.
So....have at it.
What can we or anyone do to raise the standard of living in Mexico?
(Me - I have no idea...)



Who makes these kind of decisions, you ask? Now THAT'S the heart of it. The SPP is managed by a group of people who are appointed, not elected. So, a group of unelected people with no oversight are expected to, in return, appoint "commissions, task forces, and working groups" which also bypass any public decision making or debate. All in the name to "harmonize" and "integrate" the national policies of the three countries.

1. The SPP can make no decisions. They can only suggest them.
2. See number one. If congressmen can vote against the SPP itself, wouldn't it make sense to you that they can also vote against any legislation a congressman brings up with one of the SPP's suggestions?


I'm not sure what else you need to know that the SPP is real

Please show me where I said it wasn't real. We have been talking about the NAU. If you wanted to talk about the SPP, then you should have said so.
(and the NAU and SPP are nothing alike - going by what the conspiracy theorists are saying about the NAU)



Money is the root of all evil.

The LOVE of money actually (since money is really nothing but a piece of paper) but....yeah you're right


re Titor:

That begs the question however, how did he know some of these things? Inside knowledge? This was even before 9/11, mind you.

If you really read his post, he doesn't state anything new. The stuff he said has been around for YEARS and YEARS (even David Koresh is proof of this if you listen to his tapes) in anti government circles. He just wrapped it in a slightly clever story. There was nothing unique though (even in his predictions).

***
W2H -
Yet another classic post. lol
You my friend are hilarious

Without going too off topic I'll only correct you on this:

The US Constitution gives States more power than the Central Govt...but since the 1st Civil War the Federal Govt has taken away most of this power for itself.

Before the Constitution there were the Articles of Confederation. THAT gave States more power. But with the way the U.S. is structured, that wasn't going to work so the founding fathers created the Constitution giving more power to the Federal Gov't. Decades before the Civil War.



posted on Apr, 25 2007 @ 11:30 PM
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Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
1. Screaming about the formation of a NAU is clear and deliberate fear mongering....There is NO credible info anyway about the formation of a NAU or what it'll do......


so thats it huh??? we dont have credible sources becuase you refuse to accept them as credible.

how exactly do YOU determine what credible and whats not?????



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 01:00 AM
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Food For Thought




John Titor
While you sit by and watch your Constitution being torn away from you, you willfully eat
poisoned food, buy manufactured products no one needs and turn an uncaring eye away
from millions of people suffering and dying all around you.



John Titor
The food in the future is grown and raised naturally inside the community structure.
This is done primarily for safety reasons. I am amazed at the risks people here are willing to
take with processed food.


Thousands of Hogs May Have Eaten Contaminated Feed
www.consumeraffairs.com...

Baby formula included in FDA tainted food investigation
www.fox11az.com...

Danger of poisoned food ingredients
Companies seeking bargains bring in items from Mexico, China and India.
www.kansascity.com...

SPP wants cooperation to Generate Growth

www.spp.gov...
Lower costs for North American businesses, producers, and consumers and maximize trade in goods and services across our borders by striving to ensure compatibility of regulations and standards and eliminating redundant testing and certification requirements.


WHAT? eliminating redundant testing and certification requirements?

Fact: The FDA had enough inspectors to check only about 1 percent of the 8.9 million imported food shipments in fiscal year 2006.

U.S. food inspectors overwhelmed by imports
today.msnbc.msn.com...

Oh! what about the NAFTA super highway,,,, hmmm, more poison?

John Titor:
Texas is still there but Spanish is a lot more popular.




ThatsJustWeird
www.spp.gov...
I'd like to see you debunk the facts. Since you say you have evidence.....


What makes you think that link is fact?


Myths vs Facts



    Myth: The U.S. government would never tell a lie.

    Fact: The US Government does lie, and do it primarily for their own agenda.


A despotic government can call a lie the truth, they can call the truth a lie, they can call anything (myth/fact) and the sheep will accept it.



Glyph_D is right.... LIES


[edit on 26-4-2007 by XPhiles]



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 04:01 AM
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As you see thatsjustweird, like I said several times before, you simply can not fool the reader.
No matter how hard you may try to.

Accusing me to be a liar, which is silly, makes it all the more interesting as the facts of reality regarding Titor’s “predictions” are undeniably there. Continually denying them is not a wise thing to do.

Now before we go through all of it again, first a very simple question to you which should be easily answered if you really think I am lying: tell me thatsjustweird, where exactly on this thread have I lied?

I am patiently awaiting your answer.



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 12:52 PM
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Am I wrong or wasn't Titor wrong about several things? That automatically discredits everything else he said as far as I'm concerned. This all goes back to the psychic thing though. If Titor is who he says he is, why not come forward? Why would his family also hide? Oh I forgot, he time travels too right? The fact is no psychic is ever willing to be called on th carpet. People like James Randi have been trying to prove whether psychics exist for years. www.thefinalchallenge.com is offering challenges for both Psychics AND time travel. One pays $2,000,000.00 and a book contract and the other is $5,000,000.00. But no one will ever participate because they'd be exposed. I'm not trying to be mean here. I want to time travel myself.



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 02:35 PM
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I'll get to you in a minute Roth and Glyph...I must have missed this last night....


Originally posted by Vitchilo
Waco types events... there are waco types events, and you had one big just last week, Virginia Tech massacre which is totally a black-op to push gun control.

F(use your imagination) you vit.
Unbelievable. People like you are sick! Using tragedies to push your views on people. Get out of here you (use your imagination), with that mess. Disgusting. No respect at all. I should have known it was only a matter of time before one of you sick bastards used that tragedy to push your sick twisted views on the rest of us. Thanks vit for showing us what type of person you really are


Anyway....
Glyph

so thats it huh??? we dont have credible sources becuase you refuse to accept them as credible.

how exactly do YOU determine what credible and whats not?????

This is simple. There are millions of websites out there with the simple task of informing. No spin. No twists. Just information. These are credible.
Then there's the sites you guys typically post which have a clear agenda and only put things on their site to promote their agenda. So what you get is just one side and not the whole picture. These aren't credible. This is not to say those sites can't have credible info in them, but still...they simply don't give you the whole picture.

Roth:
This is where the fun begins. PLEASE take notes Roth. This is how you answer a question. I have asked questions many times and you guys refuse to answer. Just a couple of posts ago I asked to show me where I have not backed up my info so I can correct myself...still no answer.
Alright. Step one to answering a question is first of course reading the question.

Now before we go through all of it again, first a very simple question to you which should be easily answered if you really think I am lying: tell me thatsjustweird, where exactly on this thread have I lied?

I am patiently awaiting your answer.

Ok, now that you've read it. You go back and - Step 2 - answer the question.

Lies by Roth (starting from most recent until...I get tired or run out of character space):



You'll discover that he is very argumentative, mostly without backing his comments with proper research




Furthermore you will find him twisting Titor's words and after correcting him for hundreds of times,


When stated by W2H that the "NAU" was to be completed by 2010-2012 Roth stated:


EXACTLY! as John Titor "predicted"!!!!




"having a Waco type event" situations everywhere....




hundreds of “having a Waco type event” behaviors are happening right under your nose….. right now….




Too bad you haven't seen it, otherwise you would have known that Titor meantioned “having a Waco type event” not because of the huge media attention, not because of the great fire and tanks, but clearly as an example of the misbehavior, the method of acting of US Government authorities and Agencies against US civilians.....

^^ Everything in that paragrpah is false even the "too bad you haven't seen it" part. You state the latter part several times, I'll only post it once though.



There you go. It’s not only the increasing taser-related deaths, as well as the many deadly gun incidents that follow the criteria of Titor’s “having a "Waco type event."




Political Western stability collapsed after May 29, 2005 when both France and The Netherlands rejected the constitutional treaty for Europe in their respective referendums. From there on things got worse.

I have asked several times to state what you mean in this blatantly false statement, but you refuse.



Thatsjustweird and Terapin: do not try to turn the discussion regarding John Titor into a personal verbal fist fight in order to make the moderators shut down this thread. I will not allow that. So stay on topic please.

This was just a bunch of nonsense. I asked you to explain this too and you refuse to do so.



Furthermore, I’ve never changed the date of the civil war and I repeatedly explained to you that from Titor’s viewpoint it all started in 2004/2005

And I've asked you several times do you believe Titor was correct. No answer.



Here you stated I claimed I never heard of any one being shot down by police and more people have been killed by tasers than guns. Simply untrue. Regardless of how you are trying to work your way around your comments, they are distasteful and untruthful.

It's funny. You say this but you have still NOT corrected your quote which does INDEED state that. How is it untrue when I showed you your own quote several times?



Here you stated that Titor claimed he had to leave the city by 2006 because the fighting was so bad. This is simply not true. Nowhere did Titor say there was fighting going on:




You are continually paraphrasing Titor incorrectly to fit your own views and you are exerting the same behavior to other members on this thread. Shame on you.

PATHETIC attempt of trying to accuse me of what I'm telling YOU that you're doing




Your questions are indeed simple and answered long ago.

Then when I ask where, Roth usually states something like:

You have fingers and a keyboard...and perhaps some intelligence....so help yourself.

Probably because he knows he really didn't answer the questions....



You are the one who continually twists Titor’s words as proven on this thread




because your mindset is too much focused on protecting the interest of a Government

I asked you to explain this, you refuse.



you have a severe reading comprehension problem.

Another example of you trying to accuse me of something I've told you many times already. The thing is, I can back up my statements.



Why are you repeating your questions when you were beaten by my previous answers long ago?

How can I be "beaten" with something that doesn't exsist?


Nope. Titor stated they may be revived in 2040…therefore meaning the Summer Olympics.


And if Titor would have meant the Winter Olympics he surely would have said they may be revived in 2038 or 2042 instead of 2040

This is just nonsense. Why didn't he mention 2036 as the Olympics starting back up? or 2032? Because they were still rebuilding! Just because the Olympics don't start up until 2040 doesn't mean at all he's discounting the Winter Olympics. They probably WILL have the Winter Olympics in 2042.
This type of illogical thinking is evident throughout the thread.



most cases of "Alzheimer’s" are actually cases of "mad cow disease" .........




not only the deadly despicable taser-death events on women, children, the elderly, etc.....




Tsk, tsk.. you are lying again.... show me the quote where Titor states how the media covers the second American civil war........ quote/link please....




so he (Titor) also knew how the media would react and evolve under Bush in the years between 2001 and 2008.....

Titor never states such a thing



yes you are an enemy of personal freedom....... you are supporting the freedom restricting measures in this country since 2001....

Roth disappeared for a while after I corrected him on this BS. He stated this because I don't believe in someone on the internet claiming to be a time traveler.

I'll go over some more a little later (sorry mods for any excessive quoting)



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 03:59 PM
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im sorry TJW but i had to pull myself away from your post. what i read (1/2 or 2/3) you did not show any way shape or form roth was lieing blatantly. what i did see is a fundamental lack of comprehension and a poor sense of discovery(on your part).

when we state somthing that you dont understand, it appears you jump to the conclusion that we are lieing.

TJW lets state the facts- this is a "general titor thread" its context is very hard to address, becuase it focuses on event that are to happen in our future. the only way we could 100% verify titor right now, is if we all had a time machine to jump to the future and take a look see. so really all that can be done is try to find any event that could yield a possibility of titors story coming to light. the majority of claims that are floating around here have that intent tied to them.

im not trying to tell you to drop your skepticism, what im telling you is the "proof" you seek may not be around for us to present(becuase the proof is part of our "future"). and im pretty sure anyone that spends a few minutes reading your posts can determine what kind of evidence you want. and im sorry but your not gonna get it(yet).

a side note: by have to go back through these posts to prove anyhting is absurd, if you want the proof "you find it". any new suggestions about a titor outcome does/will have a link to that source to provide minimal searching for the reader.

your just gonna have to ease up.

as for your reply on credibility thats a lot of murkyness. your saying we shoot a 100% accuracy on finding noncredible sites.:/

but just to go over som points- what kind of things have we been linking to.

lets see

John Titor
LHC
NAFTA
NAU
SPP
WACO
many many dictionary excerpts
Tazer events
Ed Brown and his tax evasion
Constitution
Truckers strike


i know im missing alot here but from what i remember not one of those was lacking credibility.

however everyone of those was refused by you for "not having any bearing".







posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 04:14 PM
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I can't believe TJW is goading me into this discussion, I had the intention of just making the one post. By the way, you're completely right Roth Joint. I guess I'm one of "you guys," whatever the hell that means
TJW just needs a little clarification is all, and in a manner that's amiable and fool-proof.



"the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence"

Glyph, that's a great way of putting it, I'm with you on that one.



"Those states have voted against the NAFTA (and hey, feel free to add the SPP in here too). And they have voted AGAINST it, that would be a good thing."


Well, we're making progress. We've established that the SPP exists and is being voted against but we're still having trouble making the rational extension towards the outcome. Let me make this clear, you won't find anything about the NAU on any "official" websites. All the information you need is on the SPP website. All of it. From there, it's a simple matter of seeing what the game plan is and using a bit of foresight and critical thinking to see the whole picture. I'll grant you the fact that the NAU is an extrapolation but it's not an entirely difficult or off-base one to make. And yes, voting against NAFTA and the SPP is indeed a good thing. You have no idea how happy I am to hear you say NAFTA is bad.

From my understanding, the three countries will retain their names and theoretical borders for nationalism sake but they will be operating as a giant corporation to put it simply. You can see from the website that "economic opportunities" are in fact, the focus. When considering NAFTA and the SPP and how they operate, it's not much different than adding 2 and 2. NAFTA provided the groundwork for the SPP (again, all on the website). The SPP, in turn makes leaps and bounds for globalism, and the popular term, the NAU.



If I'm doing research on a subject.....why in the world would I go to a completely biased site to do that research?


If you're doing research on a subject, you'd want your information to be as complete as possible, wouldn't you? I learned that in middle school. If there's something you don't agree with it's a simple process of using facts to systematically refute it, but by not doing so that's bias in itself. Furthermore, if you'll notice, I'm not JUST linking to stopthenau, but that seems to be all you want to focus on. And you're telling me about bias?



Not exactly sure what the whole point of this is....


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in making my point. The question at hand is the constitutionality of NAFTA and the SPP. Titor, by the way, stressed the importance of the Constitution. This is why--correct me if I'm wrong--the contributors are explaining the details of the SPP. This is my purpose, anyway. Read the Constitution. Print it out for later, if you'd like. You don't have to read it all at once.

Then, if you're having trouble getting started:
NAFTA
NAFTA and US Law
Senate Hearning on NAFTA (for background sake)
Canadian Law
From the Indigenous Perspective

CAFTA
In the US
EL Salvador
Costa Rica

cont...



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 04:21 PM
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TJW, let me ask you a question...

Do you think the 1st Civil War started with the Attack on Fort Sumter ... or years before?

Do you think the 1st World War started with the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand... or years before?

Although both incidents represent the first "act of war" you will find that the politics/pretext behind those events actually started several years prior to those events.

Its all a matter of perspective...mostly done in hindsight.

The writing is on the wall...You just DENY to see it.



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 04:23 PM
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SPP
Council of the Americas (I especially like this part: "NAFTA has been successful – despite popular misconceptions and misinformation. We need to do more to publicize the commercial benefits." Oh, GREAT!:@@

Rep Ron Paul on NAFTA, SPP and more
Excellent discussion of the SPP Myth vs Fact page, TJW this is for you
CFR on a North American Community (linked again due to its importance)

This is by no means everything, google is a wonderful tool


I really wasn't trying to make a point about illegal immigration other than in the context of the SPP. I'm not claiming to be an authority on how disparity should be handled either. Both these things would be more appropriately discussed in another thread. But since you asked


Disclaimer: this is my opinion only, since you asked for it.

Under the SPP, reform has been proposed in the area of border crossing. My understanding is that movement of people, material, and information will be facilitated within the borders while the exterior borders will be more protected. Consider the purpose of NASCO and also that GWB is promoting amnesty for illegals. In other words, I believe the borders would be more EU-like in certain respects.

In raising the standard of living, one needs to be mindful not to lose the nation's character. You can imagine how easy it is to "westernize" a country and lose its identity in the process. I've personally witnessed the westernization of a certain latin country. It's not pretty. Personally, I don't think it's the responsibility, much less the right of a foreign country to raise another's standard of living. It must be done from within. As to the means, that should be left up to the people working through the government, shouldn't it? That being said, I'm sure there are a number of things could be done to lend a helping hand (food, medicine, construction material etc, etc), every situation is unique.

Does anybody else feel that 4000 characters is not enough?
My apologies for the lengthy posts, but what's one more page out of 179?



Edit to add:
To those of you interested, I found this about the trucker rally

[edit on 26-4-2007 by EZapata]



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by Where2Hide2006
TJW, let me ask you a question...

Do you think the 1st Civil War started with the Attack on Fort Sumter ... or years before?

Yes it started with the attack. The stuff that happened before was just that...stuff that lead up to the war.


Do you think the 1st World War started with the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand... or years before?

Same.


Although both incidents represent the first "act of war" you will find that the politics/pretext behind those events actually started several years prior to those events.

Irrelevant. They all agree however that the war started with those events.
Wars just don't start for nothing, there is always things that happen that lead up to the war. Take the current Iraq war for example. The stuff leading up to this war can be traced all the way back to the end of the first gulf war. Nevertheless the war began in March of '03.


The writing is on the wall...You just DENY to see it.

Deny to see what?



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 04:36 PM
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Glyph, a lie is defined by simply....not telling the truth.
In each of those statements, there is absolutely no truth in them. That would be considered lying. If I'm wrong then please show me. That's all you have to do.

As far as the rest of your post, I'll wait until you clear it up. It's really starting to get annoying trying to figure out you're posts and what you're talking about. It's not that hard to express your thoughts in a clear way man. Even Roth does it.....



Get to you in a minute EZ....



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 06:18 PM
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Why are you even talking to this asshat who deny the truth of North American Union? Deny the truth of the lies and crimes of this government? The path of destruction of this country? He's surely paid, you can't be that dumb. That's it TJW, it's the last time I talk to you unless you get reasonable and stop sprouting BS.



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by EZapata
Does anybody else feel that 4000 characters is not enough?
My apologies for the lengthy posts, but what's one more page out of 179?



your limit will increase as your ATS points go up.:/ it sucks but its there way of maintaining potential problems.

thank you for the truckers update.



posted on Apr, 26 2007 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by EZapata
We've established that the SPP exists and is being voted against but we're still having trouble making the rational extension towards the outcome.

The outcome?
The more and more states vote against the things proposed by the SPP, the SPP loses even more popularity and is soon forgotten outcome?

Or the The SPP magically gains popularity from somewhere and States then begin to vote in favor of the proposals. The democrat controlled congress and the Republican white house put away their differences to make these proposals laws then begin to take the proposals to a whole other level thus creating a NAU. That outcome?

I'll take the first one for $500 Alex.



If you're doing research on a subject, you'd want your information to be as complete as possible, wouldn't you?

YES, that's the whole point!
And if you only post info or links from one side of the issue...is that being complete?


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in making my point. The question at hand is the constitutionality of NAFTA and the SPP. Titor, by the way, stressed the importance of the Constitution. This is why--correct me if I'm wrong--the contributors are explaining the details of the SPP. This is my purpose, anyway. Read the Constitution. Print it out for later, if you'd like. You don't have to read it all at once.

Titor's people scrapped the constitution.
Also, I have read the constitution MANY MANY MANY times. Have several copies of it already. And work near the building which holds the original. Thanks for the link though


Not sure what the links are for but thanks I guess lol
With this link www.libertypost.org...
Is there anything in particular you wanted me to see?


Personally, I don't think it's the responsibility, much less the right of a foreign country to raise another's standard of living. It must be done from within.

Completely agree. But people want to do something however because it does directly affect the U.S. in a negative way, with the out of control illegal immigration.


Does anybody else feel that 4000 characters is not enough?

I have 10000



Edit to add:
To those of you interested, I found this about the trucker rally

Fortunately I live in the area and can tell you the truth.
None of that is the truth
1. There were no trucks lined up. Unless they were invisible or something I didn't see them nor did anyone else. Word would have got around if they were.
2.

that the D.C. police were out in force and that no 18 wheelers were allowed on the Beltway for the next three days,

a. What nonsense. Trucks have been on the Beltway. Stopping trucks from using the beltway would be a nightmare that affects a ton of States.
b. D.C. has no jurisdiction over the beltway. The Beltway doesn't go through DC, it goes around it. DC police have absolutely no power to do anything.



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