Police chiefs ask US to waive immunity for envoy's wife in crash.

a reply to: Scapegrace

If I were the mother I could forgive the accident if the woman had shown me remorse and absolute honest sorrow for her mistake. I've accidentally driven on the wrong side in France once, lucky realised when saw oncoming car and snapped back into it.
But fleeing in a military plane was like the worst message to that mother "# you, can't touch me back in the states" I would struggle to ever forgive that for any amount of money or apologies.
Emotionally this case is awful, so so cold and filled with unkindness.
😟😟😟

originally posted by: PaddyInf
a reply to: Mclaneinc

Completely agree. Modern Diplomatic immunity was originally created during the Cold War with the Vienna convention to give some protection to diplomats to avoid being detained under vague laws for political reasons, something common prior to this. It was not designed as a get out of jail free card for a someone who can't follow the law.

The basic ethos behind the Vienna Convention was that the people granted it would make all efforts to adhere to the laws of the host country but would be protected from spurious prosecution.

diplomatic immunity goes far beyond the cold war. in fact it's been around and in use since at least the 17th century. although it was codified into international law in the Vienna convention.

and something people are forgetting, which is rather important with all this whining about this case, and how she should have stayed and "not fled the country to avoid prosecution". and that is that the person involved has NO CHOICE in the matter of waving said immunity. only the country can wave the immunity, ie only the US State Department, which are the ones who sent her out can wave her diplomatic immunity. she had no choice in the matter. she could only do as ordered by the State Department.

and while a country may wave diplomatic immunity, it is extremely rare for any country to do so. and this type of thing happens far more than people seem to remember. i remember hearing about such cases every once in awhile, and usually IN the US. where it has been used to get out of things like prosecution for sex crimes for instance. it has been used for perpetrators to avoid prosecution for crimes such as espionage, smuggling, child custody law violations, money laundering, tax evasion, making terrorist threats, slavery, preying on children over the Internet for sex, domestic abuse, child abuse, rape, murder, Vehicular assault and drunk driving, all over the world. even a case in Germany where a Saudi diplomat killed a cyclist when opening his car door without looking. and we certainly can not forget about a diplomat causing a five car pileup in the US where a 16 year old was killed by his driving accident, and that was after that diplomat got off of speeding and drunk driving charges before even that accident. or how about the Russian who was driving drunk in Canada who got off after killing a woman because of his diplomatic immunity. in fact not only is this use of diplomatic immunity not rare, but it seems to actually be rather common. and i suspect we don't even know about many more cases of diplomatic immunity that were never reported on, and kept quiet.

and something else people are forgetting. and that is she can be tried in the US for her supposed crime if they so choose to do so.

originally posted by: DaisyRainbow
a reply to: Scapegrace

If I were the mother I could forgive the accident if the woman had shown me remorse and absolute honest sorrow for her mistake. I've accidentally driven on the wrong side in France once, lucky realised when saw oncoming car and snapped back into it.
But fleeing in a military plane was like the worst message to that mother "# you, can't touch me back in the states" I would struggle to ever forgive that for any amount of money or apologies.
Emotionally this case is awful, so so cold and filled with unkindness.
😟😟😟

As I stated several times it was not her decision. The state department made the call to have their family moved back to the states. What happened is the US embassy became involved and then the State department decided to move them out of the UK. The US embassy put them on a flight because of the state departments order.

Now the US state department put out this statement

“We express our deepest sympathies and offer condolences to the family of the deceased in the tragic Aug. 27 traffic accident involving a vehicle driven by the spouse of a U.S. diplomat assigned to the United Kingdom,” the State Department statement reads. “We can confirm the family has left the U.K.”

But the U.S. State Department was quite clear on the matter. “Any questions regarding a waiver of immunity with regard to our diplomats and their family members overseas in a case like this receive intense attention at senior levels and are considered carefully given the global impact such decisions carry,” it said in a statement, adding, “immunity is rarely waived.”

So in state department speak they said she will not be returning to the UK. However that doesnt mean the family is out of options they can sue in US courts apparently they have a house in virginia so they have property to take.

originally posted by: Jason79
...His personal choice of vehicle in no way makes her a murder or a criminal.

...what ?
I'm late to the thread, but are you actually suggesting or implying that the fact the guy who was killed was on a motorcycle somehow makes the lady driving the car that hit him less culpable for her actions ?
...that is completely screwed up logic.

The fact you prefaced your comments with one about you being a motorcycle rider stuns me.
No need to reply - I'm pretty sure I can guess the sorts of things you are likely to say to justify your position.
Enjoy riding your motorcycle (from another fellow motorcyclist)...but you know, watch out for morons on your side of the road...

a reply to: DaisyRainbow

Bingo!
I suspect your thoughts probably mirror a lot of people's.
Everyone makes mistakes. I've had traffic accidents, but thankfully never hurt anyone else - well not seriously, minor incidents with hitting people on bicycles, but you need to own it and face up to your mistakes.
As commented by others, I'm sure if she had stayed and faced the music, her punishment would be have been relatively minimal, given her status, but to jump on a plane and leave (regardless of if she was told to or not), is pretty much giving a middle finger to the UK justice system...

We had a similar case in NZ a few years ago with an indecent assault case - admittedly there may have been more confusion with that case (i.e. NZ diplomats may have advised the foreigner to leave), but over time the person came back and justice was served (en.wikipedia.org...). I am not suggesting the punishment in the NZ case was fair, given the alleged crime.
Hopefully the US returns this lady, so she can be given her day in court.

a reply to: muzj03

Since you don't seem to understand the risk of riding a motorcycle, I really hope your endorsement gets revoked for your own safety. You should know better than anyone that if he was in car he would be likely be alive and nobody would even care that an accident took place.

a reply to: Jason79

...even with a vehicle on the wrong side of the road ?

...so in a hypothetical scenario, I'm riding my bike down the road and a car hits me whilst travelling on the wrong side of the road and I'm killed.

In that scenario - in your opinion, I should have been driving a car instead and by riding a motorcycle (admittedly a dangerous vehicle), it's my fault I'm killed.

Is that a fair description of your opinion ?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or an a-hole - I am actually curious if that's what you really think, or if I have some how misunderstood you... ?

a reply to: dragonridr

All the more reason for her to leave the country. You do realize it was the state department that put her on a flight back to the US.

So what?
That just makes them complicit in my book.

I seriously doubt she would get a fair trial as emotions are running high over the boys death.

By that reasoning no deaths as a result of a car accident should be tried as I'm certain emotions would be equally high.
Do we just let people escape justice because 'emotions are running high'?
And the UK's judicial system is not weak and emotion driven, it has developed over centuries and is robust and relatively emotionless and driven by fact.

Do to the fact they just moved there she is used to driving on the right side. You can see in t
he video she leaves the base driving on the wrong side. She didnt intend to kill or injure anyone she made a mistake.

I'm sure she didn't deserve to kill him, but it seems she did and the guys parents deserve to know the full facts and British justice should be done.
or any

As far as i see it she doesn't deserve jail time when she thought she was driving correctly.

It's not up to you and it shouldn't be up to the US State Department, US Embassy officials or anyone or anything in the US.
The accident occurred in the UK and should be judged in accordance with UK Law.
Pretty simple really.

Unless of course you think US citizens are above the law when abroad?

Sad that the boy lost his life do to a tragic accident.....

Contender for understatement of the year!

..... but locking this woman up accomplishes nothing other than revenge.

Or justice?

I sincerely hope you never find yourself in the same situation this lads parents are.

I wonder what the reaction would be in the US if the situation was reversed and it was the wife of a British diplomat who had fled the US, on The Foreign Office's advice, after killing a US citizen in the US by driving on the right hand side of the road?
I suspect there would be a veritable deluge of outrage and anger and DEMANDS that US justice be seen to be done blah blah blah.

If Trump is half the President so many on here believe him to be he will waive diplomatic immunity and send this person back ti the UK to enable the judicial system to take its course.....we'll see.

The whole notion of diplomatic immunity is an anachronism and needs a radical overhaul.
The system is so obviously abused by almost every single nation at some point.....and as in this case its the ordinary people who suffer.

a reply to: dragonridr

And that is why countries created diplomatic immunity.

No it isn't.

Diplomatic immunity developed as a safety measure so that diplomats and envoys could travel to enemy states and try to negotiate peace and trade treaties in the knowledge that if they failed they wouldn't be killed.

Its an anachronism and is abused by almost every nation, probably including my own.

I am certain Trump, and probably every other US President there has ever been, would demand the UK waived immunity if the roles were reversed.

Exactly,it always happen with me

a reply to: dragonridr

incorrect - the USA does incarerate people for deaths in RTCs [ road traffic collisions ]

ere is a particularly apt example :

source

no drugs or alchahol reported , no road rage reported , no prior motive // pre-meditation reported

dimplomatic immunity - as it was noblely intended by the people that drew up the various international trieaties that govern it - is still a vital safeguard for foregin envoys

but the abuses it is used to evade culpability are insane - as this case demonstrates -

iplomats must be protected against predetory and persecutory charges - but cannot be allowed to escape genuine criminality

in case of disagreement - a nuetrual arbritor or panel - would decide wheather a charge was justified

and lastly - incarceration in the diplomats home nation hould be pre agreed too

Odd one really, thread after thread defending trump even after he repeated the request to China yet, consensus appears to want this woman to face justice.

Perfect world, yeah she would but, the UK is so weak with brexit however boris has to grovel to the likes of trump, just before he gives up our NHS too for his own profit nonetheless.

a reply to: contextual

Sorry mate, haven't got a clue what Boris, Brexit or the NHS have to do with this?

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: dragonridr

incorrect - the USA does incarerate people for deaths in RTCs [ road traffic collisions ]

ere is a particularly apt example :

source

no drugs or alchahol reported , no road rage reported , no prior motive // pre-meditation reported

You should have looked further into this. He is currently out on bond. And he will only serve about 3 weeks total before its all done and he gets to decide when to serve time he has a year.

a reply to: dragonridr

no need to look any further

the case i cited demonstrates you are incorrect on 2 claims

1 - he haved a criminal prosecution

2 - he receieved a custodial sentence


i had to trawl 3 pages of google to find that - as i dismissed all cases where drugs // alchahol were involved and other factors

you ware wrong - and demonstrably so - get over it

a reply to: dragonridr

And someone escapes justice and denies a mother any closure over losing her child because some uncaring people felt she deserved to evade due process after a death.
Shameful in my opinion, and unless that crowdfunder is massive then that regular Joe English family will never afford to fight a legal battle in the states.
Awful situation, awful unkind and uncaring decisions made by US nationals in a friendly country.
How anyone can defend this actually makes me sad 😢

The way the media has captured the emotions of UK people in this awful tragedy, if Trump made a big public thing of sending that woman back his popularity would increase massively here, how it would fare with republican voters I would have no idea, but I bet he's considered it...more leverage and public acceptance in trade deals with us.
Being totally clinical with a political aspect that's exactly what I would be thinking if I was trump.

Not to go off topic of this tragedy and outrage, just my political mind thinking 🤔

originally posted by: ignorant_ape
a reply to: dragonridr

no need to look any further

the case i cited demonstrates you are incorrect on 2 claims

1 - he haved a criminal prosecution

2 - he receieved a custodial sentence


i had to trawl 3 pages of google to find that - as i dismissed all cases where drugs // alchahol were involved and other factors

you ware wrong - and demonstrably so - get over it

He is appealing the verdict and currently out on 50000.00 bond. No jail time yet before said and done may have to serve 3 weeks but this situation is nothing like hers anyway. He was driving recklessly passing vehicles in areas not designated to do so. Ran people off the road and while attempting to pass 2 cars hit a motorcycle.

Simple road rage gone to far looks like.

originally posted by: DaisyRainbow
a reply to: dragonridr

And someone escapes justice and denies a mother any closure over losing her child because some uncaring people felt she deserved to evade due process after a death.
Shameful in my opinion, and unless that crowdfunder is massive then that regular Joe English family will never afford to fight a legal battle in the states.
Awful situation, awful unkind and uncaring decisions made by US nationals in a friendly country.
How anyone can defend this actually makes me sad 😢

Personally i think she should have stayed. But someone in the state department thought otherwise. I seriously doubt she meant to do harm. The only reason i can think of is the state department figured she wouldnt get a fair trial. The state departments job is to protect US citizens in foreign countries. This is why the US embassy got involved and told the police she will not be answering further questions. They wanted to speak with her and the embassy would not allow it.

The third time they tried she was gone so someone high up made that decision.