Stop living in the mud pit

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: Assassin82

If you check, all, that is ALL, of my threads (even political ones) are created outside the mudpit for just that reason. I don't want petty bickering and personal trolling in those threads. I hope for actual thoughtful discussion. More times than not I do get that, but there are a certain subset of members that simply cannot help themselves and just feel the need to react in a silly and rude manner to everything.


SO, some of us DO try to do what you are whining about because....

I guess reading is hard. My solution is in the title. Maybe you just over looked it?

Really? A mudpit response in a rant against that very same thing. See, that is called hypocrisy. Look it up sometime, it might explain why many are arguing over politics.

You said I didn’t offer a suggestion after a complaint, when in fact the suggestion was that people should stop living in the mud pit and create threads in their more appropriate forums where they can, or cannot, stand up against a solid and fact based argument.

You attached a meme to help further your failed point which called me a “whiner”. Lol. But yeah, I’m the hypocrite. Funny guy.

A real solution is actually creating threads outside the mudpit, not just telling others to do that. See, that is a solution...actually walking the walk. Telling others to do what you are not is still not a solution, but a lame excuse for a whiner. Too bad you do not understand that distinction.

Why do so many people say I’m “telling them what to do”. I’m not your authority. I’m not skeptic overlord coming in here telling people how the sites going to operate. I even said in the thread that I understand the purpose of the mud pit and I understand that people enjoy it. Go back and read that, please. I’m saying that not everything has to go there for the sake of having an actual conversation that isn’t based on hate-filled, opinionated rhetoric.

One of the things that makes the mud pit so special is that even when you lose the argument; you can still continue insulting your opponent and spice it up with a clever meme and get lots of stars and "atta boy" from your friends.

originally posted by: underwerks
That's not mud.

Does it rhyme with 'scoop', 'trap', or 'pit' ?

originally posted by: valiant
What bugs me is how some people on opposing political sides seem to treat each other outside the mud pit, it's bloody childish! Some of my favourite posters on here have a completely different political view/belief than me but it doesn't mean I ignore them or doesn't stop me giving them a star or enjoying there posts.
Just little things like that you notice around here and it never used to be like that.

I feel like this goes far beyond this site, but I couldn't agree more.

Political beliefs are now tied into personal identity for many people. If you disagree or criticize the politics, this mindset will translate that into a personal attack.

Perhaps if it was limited to politics, it may not be as big of a deal. Still a problem, but less egregious. However, we see the same exact mindset treating everything from politics to movies to corporate marketing as their personal identity.

Oh, you thought that Gillette ad was cringy? That means you think Im cringy doesnt it?! (Which is an amusing self fulfilling prophecy).

For myself, I dont have much of an issue "separating the art from the artist." But, that is becoming more and more difficult as folks perceive even a constructive critique on their "art" as a personal, violent attack.. You might as well have attacked them or someone they love, the reaction wouldnt be any different.

It is immensely difficult to have a discussion with someone(s) when they cant separate themselves from a virulent, contagious pathogen of the mind. That then gets projected on everyone else, because thats how we work!

How do we interact meaningfully if someone believes I cant.. say.. work on their guitar or help them move because I didnt like Captain Marvel?

Maybe something like the mudpit can exacerbate this, but it might also serve as a training ground to transcend it if one finds themselves succumbing to the mind virus.

That would take some self awareness, which is notably diminished by the pathogen (along with things like humor), but its very possible if we just try.

originally posted by: Assassin82
I get the purpose of the mud pit. I really do. But all it does is allow a toxic culture of political discourse to develop that spreads out to other threads. More and more people seem to be living in the mud pit as opposed to creating a civil discussion about a given topic in an appropriate forum.

Well yeah, but it probably brings in money.

Mud-Pit isn't going anywhere. You can just make the choice to not post in there and drag the website down with it.

originally posted by: Serdgiam

originally posted by: valiant
What bugs me is how some people on opposing political sides seem to treat each other outside the mud pit, it's bloody childish! Some of my favourite posters on here have a completely different political view/belief than me but it doesn't mean I ignore them or doesn't stop me giving them a star or enjoying there posts.
Just little things like that you notice around here and it never used to be like that.

I feel like this goes far beyond this site, but I couldn't agree more.

Political beliefs are now tied into personal identity for many people. If you disagree or criticize the politics, this mindset will translate that into a personal attack.

Perhaps if it was limited to politics, it may not be as big of a deal. Still a problem, but less egregious. However, we see the same exact mindset treating everything from politics to movies to corporate marketing as their personal identity.

Oh, you thought that Gillette ad was cringy? That means you think Im cringy doesnt it?! (Which is an amusing self fulfilling prophecy).

For myself, I dont have much of an issue "separating the art from the artist." But, that is becoming more and more difficult as folks perceive even a constructive critique on their "art" as a personal, violent attack.. You might as well have attacked them or someone they love, the reaction wouldnt be any different.

It is immensely difficult to have a discussion with someone(s) when they cant separate themselves from a virulent, contagious pathogen of the mind. That then gets projected on everyone else, because thats how we work!

How do we interact meaningfully if someone believes I cant.. say.. work on their guitar or help them move because I didnt like Captain Marvel?

Maybe something like the mudpit can exacerbate this, but it might also serve as a training ground to transcend it if one finds themselves succumbing to the mind virus.

That would take some self awareness, which is notably diminished by the pathogen (along with things like humor), but its very possible if we just try.

First off, outstanding response! Very well articulated and presented so thank you for that!

The problem with the mud pit being a “Training ground”, in my opinion, is that:

A.) the American education system and standards of intelligence are devolving exponentially to a point where now, I don’t think many people could gain any benefit from having a conversation, whether it be political or otherwise, in a lowly moderated environment where citations are irrelevant to opinionated beliefs and emotional outbursts.

B.). It creates what you see a lot of here; a good ole boy gathering of like minded participants who tend to team up and bend the rules of the website to devalue any opposing argument. It then bleeds out to other content within the site and undermines the legitimacy of other threads.

Maybe I’m wrong, which I’m ok with if that’s the case, but I don’t see enough value for the mud pit to exist as it currently does. Maybe mods could limit the number of posts a person can submit to mud pit in a given period; perhaps that could reduce the negative impact of it. Maybe, maybe not.

a reply to: olaru12

And what makes that so special is that you can’t be unfriended like on Facebook. So there is always a chance of educating the unwashed masses to your point of view even if they are completely wrong.

(Insert ambiguous meme that reflects the viewpoint of both sides)

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: Serdgiam

originally posted by: valiant
What bugs me is how some people on opposing political sides seem to treat each other outside the mud pit, it's bloody childish! Some of my favourite posters on here have a completely different political view/belief than me but it doesn't mean I ignore them or doesn't stop me giving them a star or enjoying there posts.
Just little things like that you notice around here and it never used to be like that.

I feel like this goes far beyond this site, but I couldn't agree more.

Political beliefs are now tied into personal identity for many people. If you disagree or criticize the politics, this mindset will translate that into a personal attack.

Perhaps if it was limited to politics, it may not be as big of a deal. Still a problem, but less egregious. However, we see the same exact mindset treating everything from politics to movies to corporate marketing as their personal identity.

Oh, you thought that Gillette ad was cringy? That means you think Im cringy doesnt it?! (Which is an amusing self fulfilling prophecy).

For myself, I dont have much of an issue "separating the art from the artist." But, that is becoming more and more difficult as folks perceive even a constructive critique on their "art" as a personal, violent attack.. You might as well have attacked them or someone they love, the reaction wouldnt be any different.

It is immensely difficult to have a discussion with someone(s) when they cant separate themselves from a virulent, contagious pathogen of the mind. That then gets projected on everyone else, because thats how we work!

How do we interact meaningfully if someone believes I cant.. say.. work on their guitar or help them move because I didnt like Captain Marvel?

Maybe something like the mudpit can exacerbate this, but it might also serve as a training ground to transcend it if one finds themselves succumbing to the mind virus.

That would take some self awareness, which is notably diminished by the pathogen (along with things like humor), but its very possible if we just try.

First off, outstanding response! Very well articulated and presented so thank you for that!

The problem with the mud pit being a “Training ground”, in my opinion, is that:

A.) the American education system and standards of intelligence are devolving exponentially to a point where now, I don’t think many people could gain any benefit from having a conversation, whether it be political or otherwise, in a lowly moderated environment where citations are irrelevant to opinionated beliefs and emotional outbursts.

B.). It creates what you see a lot of here; a good ole boy gathering of like minded participants who tend to team up and bend the rules of the website to devalue any opposing argument. It then bleeds out to other content within the site and undermines the legitimacy of other threads.

Maybe I’m wrong, which I’m ok with if that’s the case, but I don’t see enough value for the mud pit to exist as it currently does. Maybe mods could limit the number of posts a person can submit to mud pit in a given period; perhaps that could reduce the negative impact of it. Maybe, maybe not.

Interesting, so you offer censorship (in the form of limiting the ability to respond) as a solution? Is that not the antithesis of free and open expression? That doesn't sound very accepting of others opinions. See, it does all come down to personal choices. If your personal choice is to avoid the mudpit, or express your frustration over it, go for it. However, once it crosses over into the space of others, you have crossed the thin line into a bad place. You may not even recognize it as that, but it is right there. You could have just recommended people who are offended avoid the conversation or to not stoop to that level and keep it civil (even in the face of uncivil discourse). But no, you had to "go there" and suggest that limiting others speech was a viable alternative.

Bad form...and part of the reason for the mudpit to exist in the first place.

a reply to: Serdgiam

Maybe something like the mudpit can exacerbate this, but it might also serve as a training ground to transcend it if one finds themselves succumbing to the mind virus.


That would take some self awareness, which is notably diminished by the pathogen (along with things like humor), but its very possible if we just try.

You must be joking!!! That takes all the fun out of it. Getting all hopped up on "mind virus" cheap booze, cyper pretence and politics. Can you think of a more creative way to escape the dreadful boredom and banality of cultural suburbia???

Well maybe golf, but $42.70 for green fees...GTFOH

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: Assassin82

If you check, all, that is ALL, of my threads (even political ones) are created outside the mudpit for just that reason. I don't want petty bickering and personal trolling in those threads. I hope for actual thoughtful discussion. More times than not I do get that, but there are a certain subset of members that simply cannot help themselves and just feel the need to react in a silly and rude manner to everything.


SO, some of us DO try to do what you are whining about because....

I guess reading is hard. My solution is in the title. Maybe you just over looked it?

Really? A mudpit response in a rant against that very same thing. See, that is called hypocrisy. Look it up sometime, it might explain why many are arguing over politics.

You said I didn’t offer a suggestion after a complaint, when in fact the suggestion was that people should stop living in the mud pit and create threads in their more appropriate forums where they can, or cannot, stand up against a solid and fact based argument.

You attached a meme to help further your failed point which called me a “whiner”. Lol. But yeah, I’m the hypocrite. Funny guy.

A real solution is actually creating threads outside the mudpit, not just telling others to do that. See, that is a solution...actually walking the walk. Telling others to do what you are not is still not a solution, but a lame excuse for a whiner. Too bad you do not understand that distinction.

Why do so many people say I’m “telling them what to do”. I’m not your authority. I’m not skeptic overlord coming in here telling people how the sites going to operate. I even said in the thread that I understand the purpose of the mud pit and I understand that people enjoy it. Go back and read that, please. I’m saying that not everything has to go there for the sake of having an actual conversation that isn’t based on hate-filled, opinionated rhetoric.

As you suggested to me earlier, perhaps you need to read your thread title itself again? Is there a question mark there, or is it a clear statement from you,

Stop living in the mud pit

Sure sounds like a way of telling people how to spend their time here at ATS. As you said above,

Go back and read that, please.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
The mud pit is a way to kill civil discussion in my opinion

This is a conspiracy site, you need to think more CT here
It's not to kill civil discussion per se, it's to deepen the ideological & political splits & keep 'em fed.

The pit as a concept is fine, but this site lacks comprehensive moderation of the site as a whole to keep the Pit IN the Pit. My solution to the mods would be to suggest expanding their staff, set time on/time off schedules, and assign forums to be responsible for when "on duty" so there's more constant and sufficient Mod On Duty presence, and moderate much more thoroughly (naysayers would say more heavily) themselves without so woefully critical a reliance on member reporting.

That's also how one effectively enforces their own damn rules. If you're personally, or via staff, not present enough to do so, of course there's spill over into other forums. MOST people cannot be trusted to stick to any rules of their own accord, they will find every grey area workaround and loophole there is and abuse the crap out of it unless a stop is put to the ability to do so.

I'm not blaming the volunteer mods for this, I'm blaming the three amigos for it. Poor planning and poor rules & rule enforcement execution has lead to the current atmosphere on here.

Way back in the early days of forum spelunking, several forums used to operate under that strict set-up, and it worked very well. Bringing the Wild West attitude out of the proverbial catacombs section specifically for it usually ended in a 1, 3, 7 day and even 1-month & 3-month post bans, forum-specific restrictions, or other applicable violation punishments (like IP block bans) that slapped the offending poster(s) into shape relatively quick.

Big forums can keep the civility. It just takes a lot more elbow grease than ATS puts in.

a reply to: Assassin82

I strongly feel the interactions in the mudpit are simply indicative of a much, much larger problem. Maybe it contributes in some small way, but I do feel we would see all the same things even if it were removed completely. Compared to other places, popular places, the mudpit here is almost a bastion of politeness and good conversation. If a site like ATS is your major form of interaction on the web, it might appear horrible, but its all relative.

The education in the US could certainly use work, to say the least. It definitely contributes more to all of this than a forum on ATS.. but it still only seems to be a facet of a much larger social and cultural issue. My own experience with the system here was not positive though, and that was before the surge in identitarianism.

However, we see exactly the same behavior from multiple nations with very different education systems. That suggests something larger at play.

The good ol boy gatherings are definitely a thing. It might be generations old behavior, but its amplified by technology. All the same, actually addressing this is a massive, massive rewrite of the human Cultural Story. A good one, mind you, but something that will likely take generations (at best) to make progress on.

Im not sure I can agree with undermining legitimacy. By its very nature as a concept, it is comparative and relative. Within the ecosystem of "ATS," it might have legs, but in relation to the vast majority of popular sites or the internet in general? This site is literally one of the most legit out there, even if the mudpit was ten times worse.

Im not saying ATS couldn't be even better than it already is, but compared to alternatives there is simply no comparison in my mind. And, actually fixing the issues we see manifest are so, so much larger than one site that the presence of the mudpit may even contain it a bit more than if it wasnt around.

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: Krakatoa

originally posted by: Assassin82

originally posted by: Krakatoa
a reply to: Assassin82

If you check, all, that is ALL, of my threads (even political ones) are created outside the mudpit for just that reason. I don't want petty bickering and personal trolling in those threads. I hope for actual thoughtful discussion. More times than not I do get that, but there are a certain subset of members that simply cannot help themselves and just feel the need to react in a silly and rude manner to everything.


SO, some of us DO try to do what you are whining about because....

I guess reading is hard. My solution is in the title. Maybe you just over looked it?

Really? A mudpit response in a rant against that very same thing. See, that is called hypocrisy. Look it up sometime, it might explain why many are arguing over politics.

You said I didn’t offer a suggestion after a complaint, when in fact the suggestion was that people should stop living in the mud pit and create threads in their more appropriate forums where they can, or cannot, stand up against a solid and fact based argument.

You attached a meme to help further your failed point which called me a “whiner”. Lol. But yeah, I’m the hypocrite. Funny guy.

A real solution is actually creating threads outside the mudpit, not just telling others to do that. See, that is a solution...actually walking the walk. Telling others to do what you are not is still not a solution, but a lame excuse for a whiner. Too bad you do not understand that distinction.

Why do so many people say I’m “telling them what to do”. I’m not your authority. I’m not skeptic overlord coming in here telling people how the sites going to operate. I even said in the thread that I understand the purpose of the mud pit and I understand that people enjoy it. Go back and read that, please. I’m saying that not everything has to go there for the sake of having an actual conversation that isn’t based on hate-filled, opinionated rhetoric.

As you suggested to me earlier, perhaps you need to read your thread title itself again? Is there a question mark there, or is it a clear statement from you,

Stop living in the mud pit

Sure sounds like a way of telling people how to spend their time here at ATS. As you said above,

Go back and read that, please.

a reply to: olaru12

I feel like I see a distinction between someone who is consciously trolling, giving someone some crap, or having some fun, and.. someone who isnt actually in control or aware of what they are saying and doing.

I mean, when we see a poster frothing at the mouth (so to speak), because some random internet denizen insulted Hillary or Trump or.. Beanie Babies.. I just dont think thats healthy in any way. It is becoming more and more difficult to tell if someone is just trolling, or if they are serious though.

Its the ones that are serious that are infected with the information pathogen. I suppose it could be akin to a kid pretending they are sick to skip school and one who is deathly, contagiously ill who unequivocally states they are fine. The parent or onlooker may not be able to tell anything is off, and neither does the deathly ill kid, but the kid pretending? Hes alright. A troll, but hes hip to the game.

It's not for the feint of heart.

The mud pit is where the feeble fades and legends are made.

a reply to: Assassin82

Generally agreed, have been trying to stay away from politics as of late. Only because we are past the point of words, and won't be ideologically changing anybody's mind. The fence sitters will vote based on objective reasoning (not invented scandals), so the best thing my party could do is sit back and watch the other make a fool of itself.

I will vote in 2020 for my President regardless of what combination(s) of words are spoken by others between now and then.

a reply to: knowledgehunter0986

It - along with the comments section of many online publications - also has the distinction of making the name "Trump" the most used noun in the history of the English language.

Go read any political message board, you can't go 2 threads without seeing the name "Trump" (or some childish misspelling)

a reply to: Serdgiam

I mean, when we see a poster frothing at the mouth (so to speak), because some random internet denizen insulted Hillary or Trump or.. Beanie Babies.. I just dont think thats healthy in any way. It is becoming more and more difficult to tell if someone is just trolling, or if they are serious though.

I find it almost impossible to take anything in the mudpit seriously. That's why I described it as light entertainment in my first post. It's either that or risk madness; I have enough of that "toxin" as it is....

a reply to: Assassin82

I never black anyone out. Many times you can learn from your enemy or even a site that posts FAKE news. That includes "Before Its News" and "RT Today". the same goes for CNN and MSNBC, ABC and NBS, The Washington Post and New York Times. Don't cut yourself short as INTEL is gained from all sources including those discredited. Keep an open mind. To this day you can learn from the Mellon Picker, Janitor or the President.

Closing your eyes opens avenues of escape and allows the opposition to do an end around you, others and all.

Yeah, I understand the mudpit, but having started threads in other forums only to get mudpit-esque replies was disheartening. I had other threads planned that I scrapped because of it. The mudput allows certain things that creates a leniency in other boards that is troubling.