Transcript released - WH - No quid pro quo

originally posted by: Oraculi

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: dfnj2015
please point out where specifically?

Ahhh the whole transcript?

It basically goes like this:

T:Let me tell you how important American support is. It is so important you would have no help without it. Europe doesn't care about you, Germany especially, that Angela does nothing for you.

Z:Oh yes, yes, I know. The cooperation will continue and we will buy Javelins from you.

T: Excellent! While we're talking about how important I am for you, let me ask you a favor. You know Biden?

Hey look! Another new member in the last 5 days!

How well does it pay?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Oraculi

So you're saying that they need to start impeaching Trump until they find something he can be guilty of?

No, you said that. I said things had to be investigated. The people of the United States deserve to know what our elected leaders get themselves involved in and if they are executing the duties of their office according to the law.

I will be on the side of the law at the end of all this. But to get to that point an investigation is necessary.

originally posted by: Oraculi

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Oraculi

So you're saying that they need to start impeaching Trump until they find something he can be guilty of?

No, you said that. I said things had to be investigated. The people of the United States deserve to know what our elected leaders get themselves involved in and if they are executing the duties of their office according to the law.

I will be on the side of the law at the end of all this. But to get to that point an investigation is necessary.

So why does he need to be investigated? What has Trump done wrong?

originally posted by: Oraculi

originally posted by: DanDanDat

originally posted by: Oraculi

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: dfnj2015
please point out where specifically?

Ahhh the whole transcript?

It basically goes like this:

T:Let me tell you how important American support is. It is so important you would have no help without it. Europe doesn't care about you, Germany especially, that Angela does nothing for you.

Z:Oh yes, yes, I know. The cooperation will continue and we will buy Javelins from you.

T: Excellent! While we're talking about how important I am for you, let me ask you a favor. You know Biden?

So your postulation is that in a phone call between two world leaders; said leaders do not normally nor are expected to speak about how important their respective countries are to each other? And that speaking about how important one's country is to the other is so outside the norm that it can only be interpreted as the beginnings of a bribe?

When you order aid withheld that was Constitutionally appropriated by the Congress and then approved and passed, and THEN you make that phone call.

That's a whole different beast isn't it?

Add to that that asking for help in our elections from a foreign country is also illegal.

And the fact that Barr is now implicated in this AND also that a personal lawyer -- Giuliani -- was instructed to conduct state matters outside of the purview of normal presidential record keeping, and then that lawyer lied about it on TV that it was just his decision and he wasn't told to when we now clearly see he was?

Yeah, it's a nothingburger.

Sorry you are making connections that might very well be true ... but are simply not supported by the presented evidence as the ONLY plausible exception of the events.

Your personal speculation as to what might be true should ofcourse dictate where you place your political support come election time.

But as far as rule of law and the persecution of a President goes, yup this is one big "nothing burger" ... as you put it.

What you have is a bunch of circumstantial evidence that you can use to build any kinda story you want (The Dems will build theirs and Trump will build his). Just like all the controversies that have come and gone before it these last three years. At this point it's becoming embarrassing as an American that "we the people" are wasting our time on this when we could be putting it to good use dealing with things like our crumbling infrastructure.

cir·cum·stan·tial

adjective

pointing indirectly toward someone's guilt but not conclusively proving it.

Yeah, it really is a nothingburger. 

a reply to: Oraculi

I've never before met someone who could read "Ol' Yeller" and determine it had a happy ending because the vicious dog died. Can I have your autograph?

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Oraculi

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Oraculi

So you're saying that they need to start impeaching Trump until they find something he can be guilty of?

No, you said that. I said things had to be investigated. The people of the United States deserve to know what our elected leaders get themselves involved in and if they are executing the duties of their office according to the law.

I will be on the side of the law at the end of all this. But to get to that point an investigation is necessary.

I am all for this. If it's an Impeachment then Trump's team will get to call witnesses as well. And just as he and his staff will be held to answer under oath, so will all the liars and cheats who were trying so damn hard to sink his presidency, and the icing on the cake is the Senate will never remove him. So no matter what happens at this point, it looks like a win win win.

ETA: what if he called Obama? cue scary music

originally posted by: MisterSpock

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: dfnj2015
please point out where specifically?

You have to read in between the lines and see not what was said, but what wasn't.

It's there you will find the truth, this will DESTROY trump.

a reply to: MisterSpock

are you serious?

originally posted by: Gorgonite
This is just a piece of the puzzle and it’s damning. Trump clearly asks a foreign leader to investigate his political rival and work with his personal lawyer. This is collusion people. Remember that whole thing that was investigated by Mueller? Yeah, this is that.

The Trump admins only chance at getting out of this is attempting to normalize this behavior. Based off some responses in this thread he very well may be successful.

I don’t understand why you people aren’t pissed? The Trump admin thinks you people are so stupid you will buy anything they say. They are telling you this behavior is ok and you are eating it up. Do you have any self decency left at all? Trump has played you like a fiddle.

a reply to: Gorgonite

Are you serious?

nvm

originally posted by: network dude

originally posted by: Oraculi

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: Oraculi

So you're saying that they need to start impeaching Trump until they find something he can be guilty of?

No, you said that. I said things had to be investigated. The people of the United States deserve to know what our elected leaders get themselves involved in and if they are executing the duties of their office according to the law.

I will be on the side of the law at the end of all this. But to get to that point an investigation is necessary.

I am all for this. If it's an Impeachment then Trump's team will get to call witnesses as well. And just as he and his staff will be held to answer under oath, so will all the liars and cheats who were trying so damn hard to sink his presidency, and the icing on the cake is the Senate will never remove him. So no matter what happens at this point, it looks like a win win win.

ETA: what if he called Obama? cue scary music

It's a win/win for the people. We deserve only the best and the most ethical to represent us, internally and internationally. All liars should get what they deserve at the end of this investigation, including any that may be implicated on the left, including Biden if he is guilty. I agree with you.

And a reply to another poster above congratulating me on my 5th day here. Thanks!

It looks like I got here just in time to watch the whole ####house go up in flames, as Jim Morrison eloquently put it.

originally posted by: Oraculi

originally posted by: CraftyArrow
a reply to: Oraculi


There is nothing in the Transcript about aid withheld or about help in our elections.

so yeah, it's a nothingburger.

Dear, things are not as simple as just this transcript. There is now an impeachment inquiry. What does that mean?

It means that all records will be subpoenaed, meaning under the penalty of the law. That means all eight phone transcripts will be available to the investigators, and the transcripts of William Barr conversations and the Giuliani conversations. And all instructions on the aid being withheld and who made that decision. And who asked Giuliani to conduct state matters, etc...

And if any of this is refused, the penalty of the law will be applied for obstruction of justice.

And that's if you just want to focus on that part and disregard that help in US elections was solicited from a foreign government, which itself is illegal.

Its like deja vu all over again. I feel like I stepped into a time warp to two years ago when the special counsel was being set up. All the promises of "all records will be subpoenaed" and "obstruction of justice bla bla bla" being bandied about.

What a colossal waist of time that turned out to be; now we're gearing up for the bad sequel to the original bad movie. Go Team America

a reply to: network dude

And just as he and his staff will be held to answer under oath, so will all the liars and cheats who were trying so damn hard to sink his presidency, and the icing on the cake is the Senate will never remove him. So no matter what happens at this point, it looks like a win win win.

ETA: what if he called Obama? cue scary music

Even better... call Clinton.

A sitting Congressman cannot be indicted either, but neither of them are sitting officials. Then after 2020, when the Republicans take over, both can be prosecuted for lying to Congress.

Yeah, I'm starting to think impeachment might work out for the best...

TheRedneck

originally posted by: Gorgonite

originally posted by: Arnie123

originally posted by: Gorgonite
This is just a piece of the puzzle and it’s damning. Trump clearly asks a foreign leader to investigate his political rival and work with his personal lawyer. This is collusion people. Remember that whole thing that was investigated by Mueller? Yeah, this is that.

The Trump admins only chance at getting out of this is attempting to normalize this behavior. Based off some responses in this thread he very well may be successful.

I don’t understand why you people aren’t pissed? The Trump admin thinks you people are so stupid you will buy anything they say. They are telling you this behavior is ok and you are eating it up. Do you have any self decency left at all? Trump has played you like a fiddle.

New user, new acct and like the rest, you come in here and criticize us for supporting out POTUS and dishing out FACTS compared to the fake news you consume daily.

Sit this one out.

Respectfully, everyone here is expressing their opinions. If you don’t like my opinions, that’s fine, just don’t read my stuff. But unless there is some rule in the terms and conditions I am not aware of, I am allowed to speak my mind just like the rest of you are.

I do think it is telling that you even responded in this way.

yes but there's a limit to what your doing and it is essentially trolling when you ignore facts and perpetuate fiction as fact.

a reply to: DanDanDat

The difference is it's all out in the open and nobody will have to wait 2 years. There is literally in impeachment inquiry started mere days after this was raised by the Inspector General.

And the president admitted it on air.

The devil will be in the details of course, but this is already on the order of magnitude worse than anything Mueller brought up.

Can anyone succinctly lay out and list the crimes Trump is accused of committing?

originally posted by: DBCowboy
Can anyone succinctly lay out and list the crimes Trump is accused of committing?

No, because there is none. The whole thing sounded very Presidential to me. Even Z said there was nothing to it. How it keeps going is beyond me.

nvm

And I've been thinking too, the only reason there is even this breakdown in our government is because the people who are supposed to be doing their independent jobs are instead disregarding their duties and instead going to the president for every decision, even when it's outside of his domain.

For example, the DNI's duty is to forward the whistle blower complaint to the Congress. But instead, since he is a loyalist and not doing his job, he went to the president and what can we expect the president who is implicated to say? Put a stop to this, of course. But it should not have even gone that route. Our processes in the government are broken and things don't work the way they should ethically.

After all this is said and done, whichever way it goes, new laws need to be put in place to strictly regulate the paths of communication and perhaps additional oversight, maybe civilian?

originally posted by: Oraculi
a reply to: DanDanDat

The difference is it's all out in the open and nobody will have to wait 2 years. There is literally in impeachment inquiry started mere days after this was raised by the Inspector General.

And the president admitted it on air.

The devil will be in the details of course, but this is already on the order of magnitude worse than anything Mueller brought up.

That's just really funny. I know you didn't mean to make it sound funny and I feel bad for laughing; but if phone-call-gate is an order of magnitude worse than the stuff we just spent two years and $12M on than we are doomed as a people; maybe my laughter is a defence mechanism so that I don't cry.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
Can anyone succinctly lay out and list the crimes Trump is accused of committing?

I'd like to hear that also. Thank you for asking.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm more concerned that the power and authority of our duly elected Chief executor and enforcer of the law is prohibited by (color of) law from cooperating with an ally in the investigation of criminal corruption by the (then) #2 elected official and a current presidential candidate. I would further note that Ukraine has every right to investigate criminal corruption in its own country -- with or without the US's cooperation. But, obviously, Ukraine has every reason to expect cooperation and even assistance in protecting its sovereign interests from its ally.

When such truth is criminal -- and/or impeachable -- we have much bigger problems than the ones pursuing truth and justice.