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Is school security wrong in this aspect?

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posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:03 PM
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Today I had to go to a high school. I'm not sure how all of them are, but I think what I experienced is what most schools are moving toward.

You enter through a separate visitors office, a holding cell if you will. All other doors are locked. In a very
scary way the school is set up like a prison. From what I've read some school can lock doors internally too. A stop/gap for an active shooter, is what they are claiming. It is even called a LOCK DOWN.. just like prison.

It really got me thinking about Columbine. Didn't a lot of kids live because they escaped the building? Isn't the basis of almost all security scenarios to leave the building... I think of 9/11... leave the building... So why are we locking people in???

If you are in a mall and there is a shooter, if you were close to the shooter you would probably hide. If you were somewhere else you would run, right? Run outside and go to your car, etc. If a mall locked the doors on you, and you were forced to remain inside during an active shooter situation, what would you think. It seems crazy?

Any security people out there? Am I thinking about this incorrectly? Are we basically locking kids in with danger? It's crazy we even have to think of these things now.




posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:18 PM
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If the problem is outside you get locked in as a whole. If it’s already inside you evacuate if you can but it’s often safer to lockdown areas of the school and stay there because being out of sight is being out of mind . It allows them to vet visitors too. Most class rooms also lock down, this is to prevent easy accessibility to the the rooms and locking intruders in the hall.

Shooters often go for the easy victims as their time is limited, so if you can slow them down you limit casualties. Most times even during a lock down you can still exit because the school doors are equip with panic doors so they can be pushed open from the inside in the event of a emergency such as fires or hazardous conditions even when locked. They just don’t open from the outside. It’s the same set up as most public areas with high volumes of people.

a reply to: JAGStorm


edit on 23-9-2019 by Athetos because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:20 PM
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a reply to: JAGStorm

Yes, schools are prisons. This is the new America.



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:30 PM
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a reply to: JAGStorm

Like every other building in America, schools have these things called emergency exits.



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:33 PM
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originally posted by: Athetos

Shooters often go for the easy victims as their time is limited, so if you can slow them down you limit casualties.
a reply to: JAGStorm




Sounds like an endorsement for the elimination of auto and semi-automatic weapons available for civilian use.

“...so if you can slow them (mass shooters) down you limit casualties.”

You might also limit the number of deaths resulting from mass shooting events as well.

Something to think about.



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:35 PM
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a reply to: JAGStorm

Well schools are like prisons.
You don't graduate, you escape..

But yeah, my daughters school has the glass holding cell that needs opened from the office.

"Glass" holding cell. If anyone really wants to get inside they will shoot the glass or just drive through the doors.



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:38 PM
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originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: JAGStorm

Like every other building in America, schools have these things called emergency exits.


If a kid is locked in a room/hall/etc., do tell how they can use an emergency exit?



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:41 PM
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originally posted by: JAGStorm

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: JAGStorm

Like every other building in America, schools have these things called emergency exits.


If a kid is locked in a room/hall/etc., do tell how they can use an emergency exit?


My daughters school has locks that the teachers can use in an attempt to keep intruders out of the classroom. They also have outside Windows for both exit and I would think entrance..for what that's worth..



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:43 PM
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Speaking in general terms, locking down seems like it would be an effective means of mitigation. Doing so eliminates both predictable panic reactions and the creation of choke points at exits or in high traffic areas like main hallways.

It's been better than a decade since I read about it but as I recall the Columbine kids set up propane tanks as IED's in what they assumed would be choke points with the idea of maximizing casualties by detonating those tanks once the choke points were heavily populated.

TL;DR: Exits represent choke points and choke points are easily predicted, targeted and exploited.


edit on 9/23/19 by Hefficide because: Edited for clarity



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:44 PM
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originally posted by: JAGStorm

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: JAGStorm

Like every other building in America, schools have these things called emergency exits.


If a kid is locked in a room/hall/etc., do tell how they can use an emergency exit?


Easy. They use the emergency exit in the hallway they’re “locked” in?

Most kids survived Columbine because they weren’t in the areas the shooters were in. If a shooter is locked into an area then it would stand to reason anybody not in that area isn’t accessible by the shooter. If the shooter is already in your classroom and your classroom doesn’t have an emergency exit, then it doesn’t really matter if the classroom door is locked or not, does it?

You do understand that a door being locked to prevent somebody from entering doesn’t mean that people can’t still use it to leave, right?



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 01:51 PM
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a reply to: Hefficide
www.govtech.com...



Success for the lockdown model assumes that our buildings will slow the bad guys long enough for a law enforcement response to neutralize the threat. Several incidents have now shown us this assumption is false. "No plan survives contact with the enemy.” Most of these incidents begin in contact and having more than 90 percent of a building’s occupants trained to sit on the ground, not move and be quiet (training taught in schools and then brought by students into the workplace and universities) is an exploitable tactic and illustrates the limitations of the model.





TL;DR: Exits represent choke points and choke points are easily predicted, targeted and exploited.


This is something I think about too, when shopping and if I need to leave due to a situation etc.



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 02:03 PM
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a reply to: Shamrock6



You do understand that a door being locked to prevent somebody from entering doesn’t mean that people can’t still use it to leave, right?

campuslifesecurity.com...




The new system will allow for global lockdown capability with panic buttons, card readers, computers or mobile devices.


global lockdown... that doesn't sound like something easy to just open and exit to me..


Teachers will also be able to unlock classroom doors from the inside if they need to let a student inside.


Ok, what if a student needs to unlock a door? What if the teachers aren't in the classroom, aren't these kids sitting ducks?
There are also some rooms without windows.



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 02:04 PM
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a reply to: JAGStorm


Lt. Joe Hendry of the Kent State Police Department, however, believes young children should be taught to attack.

“One of the recommendations with ALICE is that we train kids to do something, like we do for a fire,” he says. “With a fire, we teach them what to do if they are trapped in a building; if they are on fire; how to evacuate. We take those same concepts and use them for active shooters.”

Hendry notes that the swarm technique taught to adults should never be used with children.

“We teach them how to run, how to throw things and how to be loud,” Hendry adds. “Those are three things kids are good at anyway. Get the room to look like a Chuck E. Cheese. If you come into direct contact [with an active shooter], you want chaos. Most bad guys aren’t highly skilled, and that chaos works in our favor.”

He also advocates children use Stranger Danger (normally recommended as a response to an abduction attempt) when in direct contact with a gunman.


Source

As a father and recent grandfather I'm going to have to simply say that I do not agree with Mr Hendry's philosophy. Teaching kids to antagonize a shooter isn't something I would personally advocate. Feeding victims to a shooter with the notion that they'll confuse and overpower the shooter seems rather irrational to me in fact.
edit on 9/23/19 by Hefficide because: Again, for clarity



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 02:10 PM
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a reply to: Hefficide




As a father and recent grandfather I'm going to have to simply say that I do not agree with Mr Hendry's philosophy. Teaching kids to swarm a shooter isn't something I would personally advocate. Feeding victims to a shooter with the notion that they'll confuse and overpower the shooter seems rather irrational to me in fact.


This is so messed up we even have to think about this. I know teachers and have heard of incidents of mentally ill students that aren't made public. I think there are a lot more close calls then people realize.

As far as fighting back, there are some scenarios where that is probably their only chance. I can tell you for a fact they are teaching that to some middle school children already. I've heard it with my own ears. If in an active shooter situation and you are in a band room, throw band instruments etc...



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 02:26 PM
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a reply to: JAGStorm


global lockdown... that doesn't sound like something easy to just open and exit to me..


It also says teachers will be able to open the doors from the inside. Again, a door that’s locked to keep somebody out doesn’t necessarily keep people in.


Ok, what if a student needs to unlock a door? What if the teachers aren't in the classroom, aren't these kids sitting ducks?


You can “what if” it to death. No plan is perfect, and no plan is going to be executed perfectly. No plan is going to stop 100% of casualties 100% of the time.

You asked if we’re locking kids in with shooters. When you were locked inside your glass case of emotion at the school, you were locked in there by yourself or with your own kids. You had no access to anybody outside of that box. Everybody outside of that box would have had precious seconds to attempt to escape you.

Schools here are taught the “run hide fight” method. Teachers and students alike. Being able to open doors from the inside is a pretty key, and basic, part of that.



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 02:40 PM
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a reply to: Shamrock6




You can “what if” it to death. No plan is perfect, and no plan is going to be executed perfectly. No plan is going to stop 100% of casualties 100% of the time.


Sure no plan is perfect, but if the "what if's" are common, I think that is a valid question. How often are teachers out of their classrooms? A lot. Sure no plan will stop every tragedy, but I wonder if there is a better way.

Many years ago my kids went to school in Florida. One of those schools had a very unique design. Their hallways were outside. Every class was separate, and lead to an outdoor corridor. People could easily disperse in a thousand directions.

Yes I know most places could not have this kind of architecture due to climate. That Florida design seemed perfect for many different safety scenarios. In case of fire, kids could leave quickly. In case of a shooter there would be numerous ways to leave. It would also naturally limit the shooter. They would have to go in a class, leave and come back outside. There was not any areas of significant gathering per se... brilliant



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 03:05 PM
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That’s not my argument in the slightest I an avid gun enthusiast and go to the shooting range all the time. It’s just a fact if they can’t see you they probably won’t shoot you. Also if they have to breach a door which eats up time they most likely won’t do that either.

If all you see is nails I guess you will always use a hammer.

So yea if you slow them down they kill less it isn’t that hard to figure out. It allows time for law enforcement to respond and act.

Clip size or even guns for that matter are not the concern on my eyes.
a reply to: Bhadhidar



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 03:22 PM
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Around here, you have to buzz in, give your name, and they have a camera to look at you. All other doors except maintenance are locked from the outside. Then they send kids out into the playground area, a required thing for them to get air, and all the kids are in this big area like sitting ducks. Someone can drive up, pull out a gun, and kill fifty kids then drive away. You would think that they would have something other than sawhorses blocking the driveway or a chainlink fence to block some loose cannon from doing their thing. The school management go through all the precautions that are required while in the school, then act like idiots when the kids are outside on recess or waiting in lines for buses to come in.

Around here I doubt if there would be much risk of a school shooting but it seems like precautions taken actually stimulate the economy more than protect the kids. All that expensive electronic gadgetry is not taking care of protecting the kids. I think the companies creating all that stuff are stimulating panic laws. Yes we have a problem, but I feel that the laws are full of loopholes. Hundreds of kids out playing during recess is a major flaw in their programs, we ride by the schools a lot, the schools are required to have the kids outside rain or shine or even showy and cold



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: JAGStorm


It would also naturally limit the shooter


Kinda like leaving him locked in a tiny room at the front of the school would? Weird.

Again, the original question was “are we locking kids in with shooters.” The answer is no. Again, any security plan can be defeated. Even the “brilliant” one you describe. A shooter walking into one classroom and then crossing a patch of grass to another classroom isn’t any different than a shooter entering one classroom and walking down a hallway to another classroom, except one is outside and the other isn’t.



posted on Sep, 23 2019 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: Shamrock6




A shooter walking into one classroom and then crossing a patch of grass to another classroom isn’t any different than a shooter entering one classroom and walking down a hallway to another classroom, except one is outside and the other isn’t.


Um yea... "except one is outside and the other isn’t."
... Would you rather be in an indoor mall when there is a shooter or an outdoor mall. I know which one I would pick 100% of the time.




Kinda like leaving him locked in a tiny room at the front of the school would? Weird.


The whole theory of that tiny room is absurd. Hmmm, just imagine that, a shooter in a glass room.. Most of these shooters are students or former students that go right in with them, without anyone blinking an eye. They normally don't check in first. That glass room is a facade, a form of false security for parents/visitors.



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