Romans;- Knowing and keeping the law

The first chapter of this letter established that humanity in general has departed from God’s will, and is vulnerable to his wrath.
The first intended solution to this problem is law, which sets out a version of God’s will for people to follow.
So Paul now turns to addressing the Jews, who are custodians of the law.

We may guess from other parts of the New Testament that many Jews of this time thought of themselves as the teachers of the world, with a duty of sharing the Law with other nations.
Jesus commented on how far the Pharisees would go to make a proselyte (Matthew ch23 v15). Paul’s travels brought him to synagogues which were surrounded by a penumbra of “interested” Gentiles.
These aspirations left them open to criticism for their shortcomings as a teaching community.
That’s implied in the rebuke to Nicodemus; “Are you a teacher of Israel and you do not know these things?” (John ch3 v10)
And the writer of Hebrews told the Jewish Christians that they ought to have become teachers by now, but they were failing to learn the basics and were in danger of dropping out of the class themselves (Hebrews ch5 v12).

The teaching function carries with it a temptation to “judge”.
Up to a point, that’s inescapable. Comparison, at least, goes with the territory, because the teacher must be offering something which the prospective pupils have not got.
In this case, the law.
So when Paul says “Therefore you have no excuse, O man, when you judge another” (ch2v1), he is already addressing the Jews. Though he postpones the moment when he makes this clear, to give them a chance of recognising themselves.

“Therefore”, because the excuse is removed by the statement in the previous verse, that everybody knows God’s decree about the fate which wrong-doing deserves.
Then he spells out why the judges will be susceptible to judgement to the same degree as everybody else.
It is because the judges are doing the same things. Since the judgement of God falls upon those who do these things, they cannot hope to escape.

They are complacent. God’s judgement has not come down on them, so they think they are not going to be judged at all.
They need to be aware that judgement is only being postponed. God is treating them with kindness and forbearance, because he is hoping that this will lead them into repentance. But if they refuse to repent, they will come to the day of wrath and meet the righteous judgement just like everybody else (vv3-5).

Then he explains how the judgement will be carried out.
Some find it puzzling that Paul, of all people, should say (quoting the Psalm) “he will render to every man according to his works” (v6).
But at this point, Paul is still expounding the logical position before the revelation of the gospel.
His immediate task is to explain the consequences and the drawbacks of dependence upon the law.
When this case is complete, he can move on to introducing the gospel as the alternative solution
Just as, in Revelation, the dead are judged by the books which record what they have done, before a final decision is made by reference to the book of life (Revelation ch21 vv12-15).

Even so, the judgement which Paul describes here is based more upon attitude than upon details of conduct.
On the one hand, the reward of eternal life goes to those who seek for it “by patience in well-doing”. In other words, those who “hunger and thirst for righteousness”.
On the other hand, wrath and fury falls upon “those who are factious and do not obey the truth”.
He has already told us (ch1 v16) that the power of God for salvation comes to the world “to the Jew first, and also to the Greek”. Now he says the same thing about both aspects of the judgement.
The two groups will be judged on equal terms without any partiality (vv9-11).

At this point, the Jew will object that he must have the advantage, from knowing the law which expresses God’s will.
The Gentile does not know, and so he cannot meet, the standard which the law demands.
So Paul now explains why simply knowing the law makes no difference (vv12-16).
Those who sin “without the law” (i.e. without having knowledge of the revealed law) will perish on equal terms with those who sin “under the law”.
Conversely, they have an equal chance of being found righteous.
Because righteousness comes from doing the law, not just from hearing it.
Now the Gentiles do not have the Law provided by Moses, but they do have a version of the law within themselves, written on their hearts. They do not know the formal commandments, but they know the basic principles, the parts that matter..
This makes it possible for them to do “by nature” what the law requires.
So on that day when God judges the secrets of men’s hearts, their own consciences will be able to endorse the verdict.
Some commentators question whether the reference to God’s judgement (v16) really belongs in this passage, but I don’t see the problem. It does make sense that the self-examination would be prompted by God’s examination.
Paul adds “according to my gospel”, because the judgement “by Christ Jesus” will be new teaching as far as the Jews are concerned.
That supports my theory that Paul really is expecting the Jews in Rome to have a chance of reading this explanation.

Paul has shown that the Gentiles may keep the essence of the law without knowing the Law.
The other side of the coin is that the Jews may know the Law without keeping it.
The Jews have a great sense of their own importance as custodians and teachers of the Law.
They boast of their “special relationship” with God, and rely upon that status.
But they should be examining themselves, to see if they are not breaking all the laws which they are teaching.

Circumcision is the outward symbol of knowing the Law. It identifies the Jew as a member of the community which knows the law.
So a reliance on their knowledge of the Law has evolved, in practice, into a reliance on the fact of circumcision.
Paul turns this on its head by redefining circumcision in terms of keeping the law, changing it from a physical status to a spiritual status (vv25-29).
So the uncircumcised man who keeps the law has become circumcised, in the sense that matters.
Conversely, the circumcised man who breaks the law has become uncircumcised, in the sense that matters.
Then the first man will been entitled to condemn the second man in the same way that the Jews now condemn the Gentiles.

The logical conclusion of all this is that Paul is also redefining what it means to be a Jew (just as, at the end of Galatians, he redefined the phrase “the Israel of God”).
The true Jew is not the man circumcised in his body, but the man who is circumcised in his heart.
In other words, the true Jew is the man, whether Jew or Gentile, who keeps the law, and rests on God’s judgement rather than his own.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Keep your wrathful God. I'm choosing to have faith in an omnipotent God of unconditional love who forgives everything humanity is doing to itself.

I think there's a reason why the Jews are the most belligerent people on the planet. When they got to the promised land it was already occupied by lots of people!!! It's been war and conflict ever since. There will NEVER be peace in the ME. This is why I am not a big fan of any of the popular Jewish religions.

a reply to: dfnj2015
I want to believe that my home is on the latitude of Florida. So I've decided to reject all the published maps i find in bookshops, because they all show my home several degrees further north. That's no good to me, of course.

That's the drawback with choosing the God you want to believe in. Unless your belief is based on some kind of authority, you've got no good grounds for any confidence that it's matching reality.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Is this your idiotic round about way of trying to make the 144k not jews by blood?

You really need to let it go. The 144k are 12k from each of the twelve tribes of Israel and they don't need to keep any laws because they are chosen. These can include some from who we think of today as gentiles because of the lost tribes of Israel but trying to rewrite it entirely like you're trying to do is ridiculous.

Jaden

a reply to: Masterjaden
That wasn't specifically in my mind in writing this thread. The thread was actually designed as a fairly straightforward way of describing Paul's teaching in the second chapter of Romans, as an exercise worth doing in its own right (being part of a series of threads on Romans as a whole).

I've got a much older thread which does discuss the 144,000 issue. Have I referred you to that one before? Is that why you've brought the question up now?

Yes- here it is, since you've expressed an interest; 144,000

a reply to: DISRAELI

I've responded to you in that thread. I read this one without knowledge you were the one who wrote the other one. After I read this one and realized the implication, I then looked at who the op was and realized it was you which is why I responded the way I did.

Jaden

a reply to: Masterjaden
I understand now. If you look down my profile, you'll realise that over the last ten years I've been writing several series of threads on many different parts and aspects of the Bible, so I'm not just focussing on one issue. I really must do an Index thread some time to cover them all.

a reply to: Masterjaden

I am not sure how this thread negates the idea of the 144,000 at all. The post specifically says that all men, Jew and Gentile, can live the Law with or without knowing it. So it would logically follow those 144,000 could be Jews who live that as well as they know it. And all of those who are saved are saved by virtue of keeping the law written in our hearts.

The great issue with the Jews was legalism -- keeping the letter of the law, not its spirit.

originally posted by: Masterjaden
After I read this one and realized the implication, I then looked at who the op was and realized it was you which is why I responded the way I did.

So you recognised the implication, but you didn't pause to consider that the implication was coming out of what Paul wrote?

a reply to: ketsuko

The op believes that the 144k are leaders in the Jehovah witnesses. They are gentiles as far as they know. That completely goes against what the Bible teaches, that being there are 12k from each of the twelve tribes of Judah who are chosen regardless of works who will ascend to heaven.

This seemed to be a way of negating that they be Jewish by stating at the end that real Jews are gentiles who keep the law.

Jaden

originally posted by: Masterjaden
The op believes that the 144k are leaders in the Jehovah witnesses. They are gentiles as far as they know.

No I do not. I am not a Jehovah's Witness, and I've never said anything of the kind. My Revelation thread treats 144,000 as a symbolic number being applied to the faithful church of the persecution period. How long ago did you read that thread, exactly? Are you confusing it with somebody else's?
(I've been glancing through it again, and I haven't yet found the reply you made)

a reply to: DISRAELI

Of course I did, but there are several erroneous manipulations or misinterpretations of scripture in that Quagmire that were necessary for you to come to that conclusion.

Jaden

Acts is a book of transition.....happens in chapter 14 or so, after chapter 11.....

Romans....reveals the mysteries shown to Paul from before the w orld was......Rom 16:25 and 26......

The law is done away with, it couldn't provide salvation......

The 144 k are all virgins, not unlike the 144 k that Rachael was told not to cry for.....they come back in the Millenium ya know.....possibly the children under 2 that Herod clobbered.

Yep, did you know, Paul was shown 6 mysteries.....he says did not come from man....but from Jesus

Going from memory....the rapture
The Indwelling off The holy spirit
The grafting of the heathens into the vine
Man, I just ran out of memory......

a reply to: Masterjaden
Are you, in fact, confusing me with this OP- The Royal Priesthood and the 144,000 ? That poster really is a Jehovah's Witness. You haven't replied to that thread, but you did reply to his previous thread. Has my detective work uncovered the reason for your slightly misdirected reaction?

a reply to: Masterjaden

Been reading the OP's threads for a while, and they are not Jehovah's Witness stuff. There was a poster here who did post that stuff some time back, and it was clearly not a regular Christian theology, close but off, sort of like Mormon theology is close but off.

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: DISRAELI

Of course I did, but there are several erroneous manipulations or misinterpretations of scripture in that Quagmire that were necessary for you to come to that conclusion.

Jaden

He didn't come to "that conclusion." You are confused, I believe.

There is not a single word of OP in this thread that even HINTS at anything regarding the 144,000. You are on a strange tangent.

Great post as always.

And for those of us who know the ending .....

For those of us and around the world; who are disciples of Jesus, no longer live under the law.

God bless,



a reply to: DISRAELI

a reply to: DISRAELI

A) if Paul is “redefining what it means to be a Jew”, then that kinda is a very big checkmark against Paul”..


The Old Testament repeatedly, in first person and unambiguously states “obey my laws, and if anyone ever tries to change them. They are lying.. my laws will not change.”

2) I don’t think revelation made “faith > works” make sense... because it still doesn’t make sense today..


Molest children and honestly repent and accept Jesus!! Paradise forever..


Extremely good natured Indian medicine man who only ever spent his life helping others?? Eternal torment.

The historical theory is that people needed an explanation of why all these rich and powerful lords would do such evil, but obviously only ever benefit from it....

“Well no matter how much they rape and murder, on the inside they have faith..”


I found the noahtide laws that Jews had for gentiles ridiculously more logical..

originally posted by: JustJohnny
A) if Paul is “redefining what it means to be a Jew”, then that kinda is a very big checkmark against Paul”..

What Paul is doing here is trying to explain to the Jews that Jews and Gentiles ae equal in the sight of God, and the Jews have no special privilege with respect to judgement. This "redefinition" is just one one way of doing the job.

The Old Testament repeatedly, in first person and unambiguously states “obey my laws"

Yes, but the question is- which laws? I tackled this issue in a different thread, which I will link, so I won't deal with it here.
The law is justice and mercy and faith

I don’t think revelation made “faith > works” make sense... because it still doesn’t make sense today..
Molest children and honestly repent and accept Jesus!! Paradise forever..

The relationship between faith and works can get over-simplified and distorted. Paul's teaching, and the teaching of the New Testament in general, is not that faith replaces works and obedience, but that faith comes first, in order of time. If the faith is real, the obedience will follow as a consequence of the faith. I tackled this issue in a different thread, which I will link, so I won't deal with it here.
Live a life worthy of the calling

a reply to: DISRAELI

For Everyone's Information.

A real Jew and a real Israelite of God are Jews and Israelite's physically and Born again making them the Israel of God and a spiritual Jew not just physical. Context is important compare Romans 2 and Romans 9 and in Matthew. A spiritual Jews was one who followed their Father God as Abraham did, as Isaac did, as Jacob did. Romans 9 was clear because Paul draws the line between the rejected seed of Hagar and the accepted seed of Sarah. It is about Israel of who Paul was always trying to reach.

Gentiles we were not part of a chosen people who were dead spiritually. We were born dead spiritually and separated from the hope of God. There have always been two manner of people Fleshy and one Spiritual, one rejected and one accepted e.g. Cain and Abel, Ismael and Isaac, Esau and Jacob, and the Jews and the Gentiles. One was accepted and the other rejected. we'll talk more on the acceptance rejection in a minute.

Jesus makes that reference in John 8 Basically the Jews were spiritual bastards their father was neither God nor Abraham it was Satan. The Jews who were merely Jews because they were born Jews is not a son of God because he has had only one birth. He must need to be Born again. Paul never used that term towards anyone let alone a gentile. The term Born Again is used in context of Jews to Jews, by Jews and for Jews.

Now Paul applied the spiritual blessing of Abraham to the Gentiles, meaning we can become a son of God through faith on a physically born Jew, Jesus Christ, the fullness of the godhead Bodily. And it is the same way for the Jew they too must come to God on his terms through Jesus Christ. But we are never said to be spiritual Jews or spiritual Israel, that is speaking of Israelite's who have come to saving grace. So here everyone in this day and age is rejected of God and to be accepted he must come to god on God's Terms in the Way he said. BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH ON HIS SON.

The one who hears and rejects it is rejected of God based on his own choice. The one who hears and accepts God's way through his son, is accepted of God based on his own choice. Jews become Real Jews and True Israel and the Gentiles become the children of God to receive the inheritance of a Son of God in the Son of God who is true Israel and a real Jew.