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Historian's Claim:Hitler Had the A-Bomb!

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posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 07:50 AM
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HItler wouldnt destroy the own settlingroom

AND

you have to think about that he never used other WMDs so why should he use Nukes against enemy forces?




posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:08 AM
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ample evidence that Werner Heisenberg may have stalled the project to keep it out of the hand of Hitler


Bing! Bing! Bing!

There is quite a bit to support this actually.

I have no doubt that Hitler would have used the bomb if even at a testing phase. The first test would have been LONDON...



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:40 AM
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Oh for god's sake, another moron joins GrOuNdZeRo, why do we sane one's have to constantly battle with these idiots?


Listen Wodan:

Towards the end of WW2, Hitler was trying every which way to make any impact at all on the war effort. The Nazi's were becoming increasing desperate in their efforts to tip the scales in their favour, and did try NYTHING that could be of some help. Think of the hundreds of unfinished German Secret Weapons programs, a whole bunch of projects were started and never completed, just for the sake of seeing if anything could help them, prototype aircraft (jet, rocket and coventional propulsion), helicopters and gyro-copters, gliders, Hybrid Aircraft (power by two or more means of propulsion), Surface to Surface missiles (V1, V2, etc), Air to Air Missiles (Ruhrstahl X-4), Air to Surface Missiles (Ruhrstahl X-1), Surface to Air Missiles (Wasserfall), Gargantuan Artillery Cannons ("Gustav" and "Dora"), Prototype vehicles and tanks, chemical/biological weapons, research into hover-craft, infra-red weapons, etc. The list goes on forever, and basically whatever was technologically possible at the time was considered (alot didn't get past design/prototype stage though), if the Germans had it, they used it. If they had something as powerful as a Nuclear Bomb, they would have firstly USED it, or secondly used it as a threat to halt the war and so on. Frankly if they had nerve (and stomach) to try something as ambitious and never-before seen, as the "Holocaust", they would have done anything!


The Allies had to result to using Incinderary Bombs and Atomic Weapons in WW2 because the German and Japanese war machines were both so determined and cunning, they would try anything to win the war, and fought to the death, the only way the Allies could bring down such ruthlessness is to show them what they would face if they didn't give up (this isn't mostly true in Germany, but relates to Japan). The Allies fire-bombed German cities during the closing period of the war, when resistance was tough, and the Allies, just like the Axis Powers, were beginning to feel the strain and stress of war and just wanted it to come to an end as soon as possible, so they too in some sense were desperate for a means of ending the war. REMEMBER THAT GERMANY STARTED THE WAR, they decided to carry out ruthless attrocities during WW2, they decided to attack US Supply Ships in 1941 bringing America into the war, they decided to Ally themselves with Italy and Japan, the Axis powers, and they, brought this upon themselves! Sure, there were attrocities committed by BOTH SIDES, America nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki (an unforgivable act of destruction) and Britain Fire-Bombed German cities, but remember both sides are at fault, the Nazi's exterminating 6 million out of Europe's 9 million Jews is INEXCUSABLE, and altogether killing 11 million "non-Aryan" people simply because you do not like them is NEVER justified. You must realise that in times of war anything CAN, and usually WILL happen. All these actions that the Allies committed in WW2 were purely in the intrest of self-preservation and bringing down the Nazi Regime, wereas the "Holocaust" was committed because the Nazi's hated the Jewish and other minorities, and this was NOT done as an act of self-preservation or for defensive purposes, it was simply done because Hitler had a warped view of different races and considered the German race to be supreme to all others, and he believed the elimination of all those who did not fit these "Aryan" characteristics was nesscessary to preserve the great "Aryan" race. This is INEXCUSABLE and Germany's War Crimes, far outweigh Allied War Crimes, however bad.


Please understand that Hitler and the Nazi Regime willingly (and knew the consequences) started WW2. No one should advocate such a man as Hitler or any member of the Nazi Party or any of Nazi's themselves, as they supported an evil, cruel dictator who carried out some of the most horrific acts in history, started another World War, and never showed any remorse or compassion for actions and wrong-doings and how he ruled the German nation with an Iron Fist, and forced others to believe his sick, twisted views and to support his party and forcefully invaded other nations and killed millions of innocent people.

The thing I don't get is why you guys keep sticking up for and supporting Hitler and the Nazi's? Are you mentally-disturbed Neo-Nazi's or simply misinformed about WW2? Please, understand the Nazi's and Hitler were NOT good people, it's a globally-accepted fact! WW2 is not funny matter in any way, and anyone with a decent education from anywhere in the world would know that supporting Nazism or Adolf Hitler is NOT, REPEAT NOT good!

Sometimes I worry about people...


[edit on 8/3/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 08:41 AM
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Sorry this was a repeat of my previous post just edited it out... back to topic!

[edit on 8/3/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Oh for god's sake, another moron joins GrOuNdZeRo, why do we sane one's have to constantly battle with these idiots?



Why is he an idiot for having a different view to you?


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Towards the end of WW2, Hitler was trying every which way to make any impact at all on the war effort. The Nazi's were becoming increasing desperate in their efforts to tip the scales in their favour, and did try NYTHING that could be of some help. Think of the hundreds of unfinished German Secret Weapons programs, a whole bunch of projects were started and never completed, just for the sake of seeing if anything could help them, prototype aircraft (jet, rocket and coventional propulsion), helicopters and gyro-copters, gliders, Hybrid Aircraft (power by two or more means of propulsion), Surface to Surface missiles (V1, V2, etc), Air to Air Missiles (Ruhrstahl X-4), Air to Surface Missiles (Ruhrstahl X-1), Surface to Air Missiles (Wasserfall), Gargantuan Artillery Cannons ("Gustav" and "Dora"), Prototype vehicles and tanks, chemical/biological weapons, research into hover-craft, infra-red weapons, etc. The list goes on forever, and basically whatever was technologically possible at the time was considered (alot didn't get past design/prototype stage though), if the Germans had it, they used it. If they had something as powerful as a Nuclear Bomb, they would have firstly USED it, or secondly used it as a threat to halt the war and so on. Frankly if they had nerve (and stomach) to try something as ambitious and never-before seen, as the "Holocaust", they would have done anything!


What about the Boer War? That was the first time ‘concentration camps’ had ever been seen before - designed, by the British:

“The conditions in the camps were very unhealthy and the food rations were meagre. Women and children of menfolk who were still fighting were given even smaller rations. The poor diet and inadequate hygiene led to endemic contagious diseases such as measles, typhoid and dysentery. Coupled with a shortage of medical facilities, this led to large numbers of deaths — a report after the war concluded that 27,927 Boers (of whom 22,074 were children under 16) and 14,154 black Africans had died of starvation, disease and exposure. In all about 25% of the Boer inmates and 12% of the black African ones died (although recent research suggests that the black African deaths were underestimated and may have actually been around 20,000).”
en.wikipedia.org...

Or even better eugenics?

“Eugenics (from the Greek εὐγενής, for "well-born") is a philosophy which advocates the manipulation of human reproduction for the purposes of attempting to improve the human species over generations in regards to hereditary features. The term was coined in 1883 by Sir Francis Galton (though the idea had been put forward by Galton some time before), and eventually came to encompass the idea of using social policies which fell into the categories of "positive" eugenics (encouraging the "most fit" to reproduce more often) and "negative" eugenics (discouraging or preventing the "less fit" from reproducing). In the first half of the twentieth century, numerous countries enacted eugenics policies and programs, though after its apparent association with the violence of Nazi Germany, the philosophy has become almost universally reviled. Modern inquiries into the potential use of genetic engineering have led to an increased invocation of the history of eugenics in the discourse of bioethics, usually as a cautionary tale.”

Yet again, this theory was came up by an English man and adopted by America during the 1890’s to 1920’s, with immigration laws.

Also you have people with low IQ’s being neutered. I could go on, but I don't need to.

Hitler was just the first person to do it on a wide scale and I’ll readily admit, what he did wasn’t right nor good. But, I doubt he killed as many people as they claim. After all, the only piece of hard evidence we have was a document Rudolf Franz Ferdinand signed. Usually, this would be good proof except the document was written in English - a language he didn’t know and their was no German translator present. How can we take this as an accurate document?

And if you read his book: “Rudolf Höß - Kommandant in Auschwitz” he actually states: “I reported the number of the Jews who were brought to Auschwitz to be killed as 2,5 million. This number comes from Eichmann, who gave it to Commander Glücks shortly before the destruction of Berlin. I myself never knew the real number, and I do not have possibilities to find out. I consider the number of 2,5 millon much too high. Even Auschwitz was not able to do that.”

Yet that one signed document is the main piece of proof we use? As well as the fact nobody at the present moment still knows how many Jewish people emigrated to the U.S.A, Russia or U.K. It needs to be looked into a lot better then how we do it at the moment and just accept these figures.


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
The Allies had to result to using Incinderary Bombs and Atomic Weapons in WW2 because the German and Japanese war machines were both so determined and cunning, they would try anything to win the war, and fought to the death, the only way the Allies could bring down such ruthlessness is to show them what they would face if they didn't give up (this isn't mostly true in Germany, but relates to Japan). The Allies fire-bombed German cities during the closing period of the war, when resistance was tough, and the Allies, just like the Axis Powers, were beginning to feel the strain and stress of war and just wanted it to come to an end as soon as possible, so they too in some sense were desperate for a means of ending the war. REMEMBER THAT GERMANY STARTED THE WAR, they decided to carry out ruthless attrocities during WW2, they decided to attack US Supply Ships in 1941 bringing America into the war, they decided to Ally themselves with Italy and Japan, the Axis powers, and they, brought this upon themselves! Sure, there were attrocities committed by BOTH SIDES, America nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki (an unforgivable act of destruction) and Britain Fire-Bombed German cities, but remember both sides are at fault, the Nazi's exterminating 6 million out of Europe's 9 million Jews is INEXCUSABLE, and altogether killing 11 million "non-Aryan" people simply because you do not like them is NEVER justified. You must realise that in times of war anything CAN, and usually WILL happen. All these actions that the Allies committed in WW2 were purely in the intrest of self-preservation and bringing down the Nazi Regime, wereas the "Holocaust" was committed because the Nazi's hated the Jewish and other minorities, and this was NOT done as an act of self-preservation or for defensive purposes, it was simply done because Hitler had a warped view of different races and considered the German race to be supreme to all others, and he believed the elimination of all those who did not fit these "Aryan" characteristics was nesscessary to preserve the great "Aryan" race. This is INEXCUSABLE and Germany's War Crimes, far outweigh Allied War Crimes, however bad.


The Drama of the European Jews - read that. Good book, written by an Holocaust survivor. Paul Rassinier.


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Please understand that Hitler and the Nazi Regime willingly (and knew the consequences) started WW2. No one should advocate such a man as Hitler or any member of the Nazi Party or any of Nazi's themselves, as they supported an evil, cruel dictator who carried out some of the most horrific acts in history, started another World War, and never showed any remorse or compassion for actions and wrong-doings and how he ruled the German nation with an Iron Fist, and forced others to believe his sick, twisted views and to support his party and forcefully invaded other nations and killed millions of innocent people.


You seem fairly smart, but...this has happened tens of times before. Most large scale wars have been very similar to this.

Korea, Vietnam, etc, etc. Both of those wars the people were made out to be savage, animals, below other humans and in the Korean War people believed it. I find that more sickening, especially after what had happened in WW2.


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
The thing I don't get is why you guys keep sticking up for and supporting Hitler and the Nazi's? Are you mentally-disturbed Neo-Nazi's or simply misinformed about WW2? Please, understand the Nazi's and Hitler were NOT good people, it's a globally-accepted fact! WW2 is not funny matter in any way, and anyone with a decent education from anywhere in the world would know that supporting Nazism or Adolf Hitler is NOT, REPEAT NOT good!

Sometimes I worry about people...


[edit on 8/3/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]


I don't think they were good people. They were just products of their time. Hitler grew up in Austria...while he was a child he had prominant figures of Austrian Society such as Freud promoting Jewish Superiority in books such as: Moses and Monotheism (1939) where he says:
"The people, happy in their conviction of possessing the truth, overcome by the consciousness of being the chosen, came to value highly all intellectual and ethical achievements.

The Christian religion did not keep to the lofty heights of spirituality to which the Jewish religion had soared."

Or a letter in which he wrote to a woman having a baby with a non-Jewish man:
"I must confess...that your fantasy about the birth of the Savior to a mixed union did not appeal to me at all. The Lord, in that anti-Jewish period, had him born from the superior Jewish race. But I know these are my prejudices. "

and:

"I am, as you know, cured of the last shred of my predilection for the Aryan cause, and would like to take it that if the child turned out to be a boy he will develop into a stalwart Zionist. He or she must be dark in any case, no more towheads. Let us banish all these will-o'-the-wisps!

I shall not present my compliments to Jung in Munich, as you know perfectly well....We are and remain Jews. The others will only exploit us and will never understand and appreciate us. "

When stuff like this was being published, how to you expect to feel? It's the same as what happened to Blacks in America, Europe, etc. If you grow up as a 'second class citizan', you hit out against it.

Unfortunately for the world or maybe fortunately Hitler was a smart politician and new how to make Germany strong. But in turn made a lot of people realise what a Country is capable of and what can come from such simple things as war, hate, discrimination and in turn this 'eugenics' view that was used was destroyed by his actions (almost) and helped a lot of countries enforce equality. (For the most part.)

But don't for a moment thing Hitler, was all evil. Other nations had used concentration camps, leaving people to starve. Other nations had gassed people, tested on its own people like Hitler did. There is only one difference - Hitler got famous for it.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
But don't for a moment thing Hitler, was all evil.


- I don't think anyone is ever a total one dimensional character but Hitler came pretty close to psychopathic 'evil' by any (rational) standard.


Other nations had used concentration camps, leaving people to starve.


- This is mere word-play.
It is true camps to 'concentrate people' were existant elsewhere in recent history but never on the nazi scale and never with the expressed intention of extracting work from people before the work and/or disease killed them simply because of their religion, 'race', sexuality, politics or nationality.


Other nations had gassed people, tested on its own people like Hitler did. There is only one difference - Hitler got famous for it.


- Rubbish. There is a hell of a lot more difference than that.
This is exactly what is so wrong with this 'relativist' arguement.

Others did indeed attempt to gas people (Britain in Iraq in the 1920's tried it on what were thought to be rebel villages for instance) but the modern industrial scale attempt specifically to exterminate an entire people was never attempted anywhere but in Hitlers' perverted sick state.

That is Hitler's and the nazi's unique crime.

There was a lot more to the mechanised slaughter of people than Auschwitz and a damn sight more records and testimony exists proving what went on than that of a single man.

FFS, who are you trying to kid?


[edit on 8-3-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 01:30 PM
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What about the Gulag system of Forced Labour camps? These were used on people who disagreed with the Soviet/Communist Political Ideology, before Hitler was even in power in Germany. It was used to lock them away and work them till they died. I wonder how many people there would of rather been gassed?

Oh yeah…as far as word play goes, I was talking about: “Concentration Camps” not “Extermination Camps” two different things.

Also, Hitler wasn’t the first person to commit genocide nor was he the last. Saddam Hussein did it in I think 1991, to the Kurds. The Roman Empire killed off 60% of the Helvetii tribes, on the bases of religion. The Inquisition during the second crusade was another. Genghis Khan, was another who did it. Or the genocide of Native Americans? Who were also, shockingly put into ‘camps’ and used as ‘forced labour’. That is actually the longest running genocide and probably the one that killed the most people.( www.religioustolerance.org... ) The Beothuk, are another. The Congo again, Australia, Boer Wars, German South-West Africa wars, Turkey, all had genocide and ethnic cleaning going on before Hitler was ever around. Then you have the Japanese genocide of WW2. Sudan is another, that’s going on RIGHT NOW! Vietnam, going on now. India. Bosnia, Rwanda, etc.

Hitler was by no means the first nor last nor worst act of genocide. Yet he is the one most often know for it. He is the one that got ‘fame’ from his actions.

And it’s arguable that some of those I listed, actually did it on the scale of what Hitler did. Nothing unique about what Hitler did, for some reason he’s just the one that gets the most attention. Instead of maybe the ones that are going on now? That we should be giving attention to? That we should be stopping.

Also, I’d like a list of creditable records that state over 6million Jews died. Book names, etc. Once I get those, I’ll read the books and if I find myself mistaken I’ll be willing to admit it. Until then, saying you have evidence is pointless. Since I have enough books that say otherwise. (I was even nice enough to list one.)



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by Odium
What about the Gulag system of Forced Labour camps? These were used on people who disagreed with the Soviet/Communist Political Ideology, before Hitler was even in power in Germany. It was used to lock them away and work them till they died. I wonder how many people there would of rather been gassed?


- Horrific, criminal and brutal as the gulag system was it's intention was totally different. The gulag was an enormous 'state within a state' it was intended to separate - sometimes for life but not always - and provide work (usually the horrible dangerous work no-one else would do......building roads in Siberia etc etc) for the 'criminal element' (whatever the arbitary definition for that at any particular time was).

The intention was a hard life of work apart not systematic slaughter. Many did not return from the gulag but numerous people did.

It is not IMO really comparable to the war-time nazi concentration and death camp system.

......and what, though?
Because of the gulag you go easy on Hitler and his gang? FFS.


Oh yeah…as far as word play goes, I was talking about: “Concentration Camps” not “Extermination Camps” two different things.


- Who's playing games now, hmmm?
I specifically did not refer to extermination camps (of which there were several documented).


Hitler was by no means the first nor last nor worst act of genocide. Yet he is the one most often know for it. He is the one that got ‘fame’ from his actions.


- He did it 60yrs ago in the heart of Europe during the most murderous, terrible and costly war, involving most of the developed world, the world had ever seen, what do you expect, it to be forgotten in a couple of years and to have made little lasting impact?



Also, I’d like a list of creditable records that state over 6million Jews died. Book names, etc. Once I get those, I’ll read the books and if I find myself mistaken I’ll be willing to admit it. Until then, saying you have evidence is pointless. Since I have enough books that say otherwise. (I was even nice enough to list one.)


- I wonder just what would be credible for you, seeing as you sound like you have several 'books' detailing holocaust denial.

You can keep on lapping up the apologists and soft-peddlars lies about the nazi crime all you like, most educated people know this is one of the single most documented periods in history and know what went on.

Not only is the world fully aware of the nazi horror from the mouths of the survivors but the very instigators of it that survived told the same story......some with revolting pride and no remorse whatsoever.

Albert Speer himself, for instance, quietly provided evidence of the Holocaust to the Israeli High Court to refute denial claims.

Despite his lifetime of denial (that he knew the details of the Holocaust) he finally admitted to Gita Sereny (in her excellent book 'Albert Speer his battle with the truth') that he had spent the post-war years lying about this to save his own skin.

Anyone wishing to glimpse the mountain of evidence and be referred to the huge range of literature documenting this crime could do worse than start with
www.ipl.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.ipl.org....

[edit on 8-3-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 09:37 PM
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The Godfather of Conspira, I do not appriciate being bashed for having an opinion about something and please don't tell me what I should believe, I was forced to believe whatever the history books said, and IMHO history books are usually biased based on who wrote it or who ordered it to be written.

I condemn hitler for invading my country (the Netherlands) which WAS neutral at the time, we did not pick sides since we are pacifist, and I condemn him for starting this HORRIFIC war, but I don't condemn his motives, he wanted a peaceful world, and unless I see IRREFUTABLE UNBIASED truth that Hitler ordered mass-murder, i'll believe it, I wont believe anything a angry jew says.

Asking me if i'm a Neo-Nazi is a low blow, and calling me a moron is even worse, But I do doubt what I say as I cleary showed in my previous post, I am not 100% sure about my statements, and I did enough research on this topic and like I said, this "History" has been forced down my troat by a pro-zionist government, hell, most of the western world is ruled by them (Banks).

I am not an Anti-Zionist, but I do admit that there ARE Jewish people that want nothing BUT Global Domination (NWO style) and they are in the US Government, there is over whelming proof of this (just read Rule by Secrecy by Jim Marrs).

I feel quite upset that big cities like Rotterdam where bombed to hell in WW2 and even my own hometown, this was all indiscriminate allied bombing, and I am quite upset about that since many have died, but I also was not happy with Hitler giving us completely no chance to defend our selfs, he bombed most of our aircraft and we were completely unprepared since Germany said it would not invade us, that was a lie...

You are inteligent Conspira, esspecially for your age (I read your profile), but please don't steep as low to insult, I know my views upset you, and this ofcourse was not intentionally, I am quite sane, but I can clearly see that a secret government is brewing absolutely evil plans behind our backs, ever noticed how the US is more and more turning into a country like the Third Reich? it's scary!

I WONDER what the world would have been like if the Germans won, what if we were completely peaceful? had no discrimination? no motivation for war? made aboslutely break-throughs in very little time because everyone working together? I KNOW it is bad that minorities were alledgedly wiped out, but what if this was never the case?

Hitler was an emotionally instable person, but I doubt he was insane, he was definitly not a pleasant guy like many Germans (no offense to any Germans), but was he downright evil? I don't know about that.

As for the Atom Bomb, I see a distinct possibility they had one, their technological leaps were so INCREDIBLE, I think it was feasible in one way or the other.

I currenly am not happy in this world, it's filled with power-hungry people, there is a devision among us, we are not working together, we are waging war on each other, we fight because of religion and our believes and even opinions...I would have much rather seen a stable world, a relatively happy world.

Please, don't believe everything the media tells you, they are owned by a minority, the wealthy Zionist, The truth is in between the history books and the conspiracy theories.

And to clear one thing up, I don't condone hitler putting inocents in a camp to ROT, but he did see the danger of such a wealthy minority (which a very evil religion IMO which states that all non-jews are pigs to be slaughtered).

IMHO I think Hitler would relocate the jews to a country after the war and keep a close eye on them, but since a war was being waged, they had no way to come up with the funds to support camps like those.

I'm very sorry for my huge post, but I had to get this off my chest...



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:20 PM
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Odium: PLEASE READ

What the hell is the matter with you? Why do keep defending Hitler's actions in WW2 as justified and claiming that things like the "Holocaust" never happened. I know you have the right to your own opinion, but now you are REALLY getting off the rails. To support, in a way, and to say that Hitler was made out much worse than he really was, and to say things like the "Holocaust" couldn't have happened on the scale they did just because the whole idea is unbelievable is stupid! You seem to have a decent knowledge, so why challenge something as widely-believed and well-proven as the "Holocaust"? And saying that Hitler was the product of an era, and was brainwashed into these weirds ideas and wasn't all that bad, is like saying the 9/11 WTC Attacks are cool, seriously, what are you trying to prove, or how are you trying to fool?


OK just to tell to you something...



What about the Boer War? That was the first time ‘concentration camps’ had ever been seen before - designed, by the British:


The Boer War was nothing like the Holocaust! The British DIDN'T forcefully and systematically, exterminate Boer people, those camps were simply POW for Boers and other Indigenous races detained in South Africa from native tribes, and they weren't killed (forcefully by the British). After the Boer War, many were released back to South Africa, although some were still imprisoned, and even conditions were bad and people died you can't compare the Nazi's Concentration Camps to Boer POW Camps. I think you KNOW yourself what your saying is wrong, you just don't want to admit it...

(the British didn't willingly commit genocide, think about what your saying)



Or even better eugenics?


You know yourself Eugenics was never carried out on as a large scale as the Holocaust and was rarely carried out in the way the Nazi's organised special camps, and the whole infrastructure of the "Final Solution"... so please stop with these lame arguements! NOTHING can compare to the magnitude of destruction of the Holocaust.



Also you have people with low IQ’s being neutered. I could go on, but I don't need to.


Have no idea what your referring to there, unless your talking about the Nazi's exterminating mentally-handicapped people and such...



Hitler was just the first person to do it on a wide scale and I’ll readily admit, what he did wasn’t right nor good. But, I doubt he killed as many people as they claim. After all, the only piece of hard evidence we have was a document Rudolf Franz Ferdinand signed. Usually, this would be good proof except the document was written in English - a language he didn’t know and their was no German translator present. How can we take this as an accurate document?


That is the biggest load of bulls*** I have heard in a while... (did you IQ just plummet when you wrote this?)

If you look at the amount of overwhelming evidence:

-The videos of the concentration camps and the mass graves filmed by Allied soldiers as they were liberating the camps and getting rid of the dead, the "Bergen-Belsen" video for instance, sickingly disturbing, at that camp alone 1.7 million people were killed, shows you the real picture and magnitude of such a thing.

-The testimonials and confessions after the war from everyone who was at these camps, SS and Nazi Officers, Survivors, Witnessess, and so on. I could go on with a list of names but here's a few: Joseph Mengele (Auschwitz Doctor who carried out sick medical experiments there confessed to what he did and the nature of the camp), Freidrich Stoeller (High-Ranking SS Officer in charge of managing records of dead produced by Death Camps), then there's the survivors (too may to list, have a look at people who survived Auschwitz or Treblinka), Allied Soldiers and Russian Soliders gave their view of what they saw, even High-Ranking Nazi Government Ministers like Albert Speer (Munitions Minister) and Rudolf Hess confessed they knew about Hitler's "Final Solution". Finally, Hienrich Himmler (Head of SS) and Joseph Goebbels (Propaganda Minister), and their personal records and accounts provide the most amount of detailed evidence about the extermination of all different types of people and races and how it was carried out.

-Finally, there is so much more evidence it's hard to believe in itself, search it up on the internet, in library, anywhere if you don't believe me! Hell, book after book, film after film, just about everything that can be published about the Hitler and the Nazi's Hatred for the Jews and the Holocaust has been published and made! Thousands of Nazi Records have been discovered and THE CAMPS THEMSELVES have given us a first-hand view of the whole issue! Can you HONESTLY say that you don't believe all of this overwhelming evidence and all of these people who were involved in it one way or another in it... do think its all lies or something?

Please think before you say, as someone from England (assuming you ARE), should know a GREAT deal about the Holocaust, and wouldn't be one to question or deny it as they were one of the major Allied countries in WW2 and witnessed and suffered destruction and death first-hand... (my opinion)

You also know how much Hitler hated anyone who wasn't "Aryan", and that he said himself that all of these people must be eliminated in order to preserve the Aryan Race and to make sure it stays pure. You know the length in which Hitler would go to, to accomplish his sick, twisted beliefs. The Holocaust was as terrible as it is made out to be because it was carried out to such a level of determination and precision, because it was started and personally maintained by Hitler.

BTW, do you care how many million were killed? Who does? Wether it be 11 million or 5 million that were killed during the Holocaust, such a well-orchaestrated and brutal plan to systematically eliminate a race is NEVER EVER GOOD, and it does not matter how many died (losing a life is the same everytime, it does not matter the magnitude), the Holocaust was a terrible thing and to say such comments as "there is really no proof of it... I doubt he killed as many people as claimed" is really quite disturbing to hear an EDUCATED person say that, you really don't know horrible the Holocaust was, do you?



You seem fairly smart, but...this has happened tens of times before. Most large scale wars have been very similar to this.


Sure there have been many evil rulers before Hitler, but NONE LIKE HIM, he was what I believe the most evil man in history, but that is of course my opinion. The only people that could compare to him before were Vladimir Lenin and Josef Stalin, they started a bloody revolution (good in one way, however very violent), gained power, and then Stalin controlled his the nation the same way Hitler did, through fear and terror. Other people in history before Hitler cannot compare to a man like him, wether it be Roman Emperors like Caesar, Barbarians, Pharohs, Kings of England, whoever, they all had their limits and had a good side too. Hitler was a man of no limits, he did whatever it took, and would try anything, you can't compare anyone in present or past time to him....

Besides, during ANY war, one side in invariably is seen as the bad or the evil one, and the other is seen as a the powerful, peaceful and brave force of good, it ALWAYS turns out like that. And although alot of people are made out to be worse than the are, Hitler was true to everyone's words, he was just evil and heartless...



I don't think they were good people. They were just products of their time.


Products of their time? How, please elaborate on this further? As their really was no person who inspired the Nazi's or lead them to believe and do such horrible things as Hitler. His actions, despite the fact he had a tough childhood and growing up was influenced by alot of weird views, ARE NOT EXCUSABLE!!! Jeez, do I have to draw you a picture? Whatever happened to Hitler when he was growing up is hardly the sort of backdrop someone would picture as the scene for the Nazi's to gain power and committ horrible attrocities. You speak of the era when Hitler was around as warping his views and beliefs but the fact is THAT NOTHING PERSUADED him to believe all these ideas, he did, because he was simply sick and twisted and he WANTED to believe these weird ideas because of his intense hatred for Jews and other minorities and because of his belief that the "Aryan" race was superior. No one can know what drove Hitler to do the things he did, it was a complex combination of things, and we will never understand a man like him fully. Don't just consider yourself an expert because you read books, real understanding comes from hands-on (first hand) experience, something we all will never have of a man like Hitler and his views and beliefs.



But don't for a moment thing Hitler, was all evil. Other nations had used concentration camps, leaving people to starve. Other nations had gassed people, tested on its own people like Hitler did. There is only one difference - Hitler got famous for it.


There is only so close one can come, physically, mentally, and pyschologically to being COMPLETELY EVIL AND BAD, and everyone has a good side and has their limits. But for a mind to compute and carry out such terrible destruction during WW2, which is quite impossible for many, one must question, although Hitler maintained the "effect" of being normal, he must have been as close as anyone as gotten to being completely evil.

Sure terrible things have happened all throughout history, and will continue to happen, it's undoubtable. And while most people don't know about all of the bad things that have happened in the past, the memory of Hitler, the Nazi's and the things they did remains in almost everyone's head and stands out from all the attrocities committed in history. What Hitler and the Nazi's did was evil and heartless, and honestly many would say nothing can compare to his actions, this is because of the way he committed unspeakable acts of terror and because of his mentality and complete and utter remorselessness and the fact that he openly professed his deep, harboured beliefs, is why he is so infamous and stands out as a evil figure in history and is why everyone knows his name.

I will stop there. I just want to say that you, out of all people, shouldn't be doubting and questioning some like Hitler's acts during WW2, and argueing that his actions were some what justified. There is no conspiracy surrounding something as evil and bad as the Holocaust, and although you are entitled to your own opinion, you really should stop this s*** now, there's a point where you draw the line, so please, do us all a favour and DO IT!


You beginning to sound like a Neo-Nazi or Hitler Activist, I don't get what your trying to prove here, and who your trying to fool...


P.S. As I said before don't consider yourself an expert on these matters just because you read books. There is many things we will never know about the Nazi's or Hitler because we DON'T HAVE the first hand experience!



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:26 PM
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To all:

I don't wish to argue with you guys any further. Go ahead and have your beliefs, I don't care anymore, and I got this stupid warning so there, I hope your happy you've accomplished something by silencing me. The point I was trying to make, as vague as it may have been, was that you guys shouldn't support Adolf Hitler or the Nazi's or any of their beliefs and views. You don't seem to understand what people like Hitler symbolise to everyone and the evils and terrible things they did.

However, I'm not going to force it on it you anymore... go ahead and support Nazi's, I don't care...



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:40 PM
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Wow, these are some long posts.


The pre-publication claims by historian Rainer Karlsch drew headlines in German newspapers on Friday but the publisher of "Hitlers Bombe" (Hitler's Bomb) declined to give details or answer further questions until the book is launched on March 14.

So the book comes out next week. Should be a good read. The author claims he has quotes from scientists in the book, so I'm wondering why this has taken so long to find out. Surely if Hitler had tested nukes it would have been used as Allied propaganda and not hidden. Also I tend to agree with the theory that says Heisenberg stalled the project.

Why is there so much talk of Hitler when he was just the face of what was a majorly financed war? Hitler was the face but the bankers provided the cash for the war and they profited greatly. If it wasn't Adolf, they'd have found some other figurehead.



posted on Mar, 8 2005 @ 10:53 PM
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Heisenberg never stunted the development of the German bomb although that is how he portrays his role. If he had had the resources ( which he never would have ) he would have built a bomb. Heisenberg is no shining example of anti-NAzism - he just didn't have the resources - THAT IS ALL.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 05:57 AM
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Originally posted by rogue1
Heisenberg never stunted the development of the German bomb although that is how he portrays his role.


- Except that the recently released transcripts of conversations taken by hidden microphone (which indicate that Heisenberg & Co. had no idea they were being monitored that way) tell us just the opposite.

See www.taivaansusi.net...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find Groundzero's comments (if he is indeed a Dutchman) amazing.
What is he saying? Imagine if Hitler's nazism had won WW2 and suddenly transformed itself to become a tolerant, unified, co-operative and lacking discrimination?!



The Godfather of Conspira is right, this is tedious idiot trolling at it's worst, sadly once again.
Clearly this is bored kiddies saying something outrageous to provoke a response.

It's just shameful there is no topic beyond sh*tting over this way, not even WW2, the hugely documented nazi war-crimes and the Holocaust itself.



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 07:02 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Horrific, criminal and brutal as the gulag system was it's intention was totally different. The gulag was an enormous 'state within a state' it was intended to separate - sometimes for life but not always - and provide work (usually the horrible dangerous work no-one else would do......building roads in Siberia etc etc) for the 'criminal element' (whatever the arbitary definition for that at any particular time was).

The intention was a hard life of work apart not systematic slaughter. Many did not return from the gulag but numerous people did.

It is not IMO really comparable to the war-time nazi concentration and death camp system.

......and what, though?


Some would question whether the deaths in slave labor camps can reasonably be considered "murder." Clearly, if prisoners had been provided with adequate food, clothing, and shelter, the state would have been guilty of slave-driving, but not murder. But this is simply not the case: a conscious decision was made to severely restrict provisions for prisoners while forcing them to perform incredibly demanding work. This methodological standard is not especially high: researchers of Nazi atrocities have routinely and sensibly counted the deaths of slave laborers under inhuman conditions as murder. Mass murderers use a diverse bag of tools, as the testimony of famed Nazi war criminal Adolph Eichmann reveals:

EICHMANN'S MINUTES FROM THE WANNSEE CONFERENCE PRESENTED AS EVIDENCE AT HIS TRIAL:

"Within the framework of the final solution, Jews will be conscripted for labour in the eastern territories under appropriate leadership. Large labour gangs of those fit for work will be formed, with the sexes separated. They will be made to build roads as they are led into these territories. A large percentage will undoubtedly be eliminated by natural diminution."
PROSECUTOR: What is meant by "natural diminution"?
EICHMANN: That's perfectly normal dying. Of a heart attack or pneumonia, for instance. If I were to drop dead just now, that would be natural diminution.
PROSECUTOR: If man is forced to perform heavy physical labour and not given enough to eat, he grows weaker, and if he gets so weak he has a heart attack...?
EICHMANN: That undoubtedly would have been reported as natural diminution.

Deaths due to man-made famine

And because of this trial, the deaths that happened in concentration camps got added to the total deaths for Jews, Gays, Poles, etc, etc. Now are you willing to throw this case out and state you don’t think the deaths that happened in the concentration camps (under the same conditions in the Gulag system) should be counted? And in turn take away roughly 2.5million the supposed Jewish deaths?

Otherwise will you admit the Gulag system was the same as the Concentration Camps?

In turn if you admit that they were, do you know how many people the Gulag system is estimated at killing through their conditions? 41million.

Also, Tthe Gulag camps were in operation till 1987: ISBN 0767900561 Anne Applebaum, Gulag: A History, Broadway Books, 2003, hardcover, 720 pages. Less than 20years ago.

“But the growth era of the camps was only beginning: by 1940 the concentration camps contained about 10,000,000 souls, while camp conditions grew ever worse.” with a rate of survival as low as 60%. So in that year alone, 4million people would have died.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
It is true camps to 'concentrate people' were existant elsewhere in recent history but never on the nazi scale and never with the expressed intention of extracting work from people before the work and/or disease killed them simply because of their religion, 'race', sexuality, politics or nationality.


I think you’ll find that was the point of the Gulag system. The actually used it lock anyone up who didn’t share their ideology and in turn, kill them off. It’s why they had such a poor survival rate (Lack of clothing, food, etc.) and in turn can be generalized to the Nazi concentration camp. Also, on the Nazi scale? there are over 200 known Gulag camps. It was done on a large scale.


Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
He did it 60yrs ago in the heart of Europe during the most murderous, terrible and costly war, involving most of the developed world, the world had ever seen, what do you expect, it to be forgotten in a couple of years and to have made little lasting impact?


No. But it shouldn’t take president over more important historic times. The British Empire, WW2, the Cold War. What the British Empire did. (Which was a lot worse then Hitler did and things like the killing of Native American’s was going on till the 1920’s and they never obtained rights till the 1960’s. But that never gets spoken of.)

Those areas should all be taught. But they’re not. World War 2 gets this great precedent over everything else. But why? And why is it taught from such a bias view? I also went over the GCSE Papers for two examining boards, that study WW2. Neither of them, need you to mention the fact Gays, Roma, Soviets, etc, were punished by Hitler and the Nazi’s. Yet for some reason, the Jews take the forefront of it. The fact they got persecuted is taught over the factors other did. Which I’m sorry, but that isn’t acceptable and neither is the amount of lies that come from it.

After all, it’s estimated roughly 20million Chinese people got slaughtered, by the Japanese but that’s not even spoken of. Why do the Jews get special treatment? I willingly admit, they got persecuted. They got tortured, gassed, worked to death. But worse things have happened, for longer, cost us more and killed more people! Yet not one of them is taught.

And in turn, this whole ‘Pro-Zionist’ movement, in Western Nations is ridiculous. The amount of people that have no clue that Israel came about after WW2! The amount of people that don’t know about the Zionist movements and the hate literature they produce. The policies of Israel, not allowing non-Jews to immigrate to their nation. Segregation of Arabs and Israelis. The list goes on. Why do we get such a jaded view of reality?

And when will people realise that by pushing such a jaded view they force a lot of religious and racial problems?

The first ‘Gulf War’, Saddam Hussein killed what 2million people? On a religious and political standpoint. His scientists tested on them, similar to what happened in WW2.

Sudan, is happening right now. With the slaughter of people on a religious ground and we stand by and let it happen. By doing this, it destroys the point of learning about WW2 and saying it was a bad thing. When we let it happen right now! Today!

I could go on and list even more, that are killing millions of Christians and/or Muslims. But, we don’t learn about them.

My point I’m trying to make is:

Hitler got glorified by WW2. It made the whole Nazi Ideology almost ‘popular’ to annoyingly use the term and by doing so will cause more hate crimes.

There have been worse crimes then Hitler and worse ones going on now. (Access to victims, size of a nation, power, etc factored in.)

We learn about 1bad event and from a very Pro-Zionist way. We never learn about anything the Jews have done that’s wrong nor do we learn about a lot of the other hate crimes that go on in this world. This can only lead to more problems.

And I don’t believe 6million people died. I will always think this is far too high.

As for the source, I’ll read it while I’m at work this weekend and comment on it then.

--------------

The Godfather of Conspira


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
What the hell is the matter with you? Why do keep defending Hitler's actions in WW2 as justified and claiming that things like the "Holocaust" never happened.


I’ve stated more then once I don’t agree with what he did. I’ve also never claimed it didn’t happen. Maybe you should read my posts?




Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
To support, in a way, and to say that Hitler was made out much worse than he really was,


Actually for some reason, WW2 almost martyred Hitler and his cause. Hitler holds some responsibility for what happened, but not all of it. Yet he gets all the blame. There were other people at the ‘Final Solution’ meeting.

The Final Solution was also just the ‘relocation’ of the Jews. That was the one Hitler signed, it was actually Hermann Göring that instigated the mass genocide. Not Hitler. (And I admit, the Germans would of willingly killed every Jew/Non-Aryan person. If they had the chance.)

Also, did you know Hitler wasn’t even present at the Wannsee Conference?


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
The Boer War was nothing like the Holocaust! The British DIDN'T forcefully and systematically, exterminate Boer people, those camps were simply POW for Boers and other Indigenous races detained in South Africa from native tribes, and they weren't killed (forcefully by the British). After the Boer War, many were released back to South Africa, although some were still imprisoned, and even conditions were bad and people died you can't compare the Nazi's Concentration Camps to Boer POW Camps. I think you KNOW yourself what your saying is wrong, you just don't want to admit it...


I never meant for you to take it in that context. I was just showing that Germany wasn’t the first country to use concentration camps. You also seem to be getting concentration camps and extermination camps confused. They are two different things.


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
(the British didn't willingly commit genocide, think about what your saying)


They did to Native Americans though.


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
You know yourself Eugenics was never carried out on as a large scale as the Holocaust and was rarely carried out in the way the Nazi's organised special camps, and the whole infrastructure of the "Final Solution"... so please stop with these lame arguements! NOTHING can compare to the magnitude of destruction of the Holocaust.


Only because nobody ever had the chance to. The American government actually had immigration camps, similar to concentration camps where they used a very eugenics based policy. (I can write up the constitution amendments and laws if you’d like?)


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Have no idea what your referring to there, unless your talking about the Nazi's exterminating mentally-handicapped people and such...


No, in America when IQ tests got introduced they actually firstly offered people who scored low to ‘be unable to have children’ and for a while they actually did it without choice. Only about a year maybe even less, but they did. (Mostly to blacks, Hispanics, other minority groups.)


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
The videos of the concentration camps and the mass graves filmed by Allied soldiers as they were liberating the camps and getting rid of the dead, the "Bergen-Belsen" video for instance, sickingly disturbing, at that camp alone 1.7 million people were killed, shows you the real picture and magnitude of such a thing.


Killed? Bergan-Belsen was a concentration camp, not an extermination camp.

Although still occasionally referred to as an "extermination camp" or "mass murder" center, the truth about Bergen-Belsen has been quietly acknowledged by scholars. (note 27) In his 1978 survey of German history, University of Erlangen professor Helmut Diwald wrote of (note 28)
... The notorious Bergen-Belsen concentration camp where 50,000 inmates were supposedly murdered. Actually, about 7,000 inmates died during the period when the camp existed, from 1943 to 1945. Most of them died in the final months of the war as a result of disease and malnutrition -- consequences of the bombings that had completely disrupted normal deliveries of medical supplies and food. The British commander who took control of the camp after the capitulation testified that crimes on a large scale had not taken place at Bergen-Belsen.

You insult others and say my IQ has lowered? Go check your historic facts.
I can list over 40 modern books, that all dispute that Bergen-Belsen was an extermination camp. It’s actually been disputed as Historic fact, by most modern historic institutions.

Even Mark Weber put his career on the line, several years ago about this camp and proved what was said was lies.
www.ihr.org... - Good article by Weber.


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
The testimonials and confessions after the war from everyone who was at these camps, SS and Nazi Officers, Survivors, Witnessess, and so on.


And I can name people who say the opposite. How does that make either of us right? Also a lot of ‘first hand’ accounts are very jaded and biased. It would be hard not to be.


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
Please think before you say, as someone from England (assuming you ARE), should know a GREAT deal about the Holocaust, and wouldn't be one to question or deny it as they were one of the major Allied countries in WW2 and witnessed and suffered destruction and death first-hand...


Both my grandparents are WW2 veterans and both agree what was said just after the war and the creation of a Jewish state, etc, was all bull. One of them was also part of the ‘Soviet Push’ and witnessed a lot of atrocities but still never agreed with what was said up till his death in the 70’s. (Only can go by what my father told me, as I never got to meet him.)

Also, the death rate matters a lot. It’s part of the reason we learn about WW2 is due to how horrific it was and how many people died.

You also make out that Hitler was the single handed driving force of Nazi Germany. He wasn’t. He was a front. Big businesses had their hands in the concentration camps and were using them to make their products. Other people played larger, more important roles then Hitler did. Yet is the one everyone knows.


Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
You beginning to sound like a Neo-Nazi or Hitler Activist, I don't get what your trying to prove here, and who your trying to fool...


Yeah, 5th Generation Native American and 2nd generation Russian. I’d make a good Neo-Nazi



Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira
P.S. As I said before don't consider yourself an expert on these matters just because you read books. There is many things we will never know about the Nazi's or Hitler because we DON'T HAVE the first hand experience!


Surely you can’t debate it from another view point then? You don’t have the first hand experience either. But, I do have a hell of a lot of second and third hand knowledge. Including my grandfather, who I used to see every week who spoke of the war and taught me a hell of a lot more then any books have done.

Problem is, everyone takes their own views from these situations. WE look at it from different view points, with our own agenda. We all go in with a prior view, motivation, etc. So no matter what it’s near impossible to disprove or prove our own views. What came out of the German reports are jaded and biased.

On one hand you have all these surviving records of the slaughter of Jews, but not any other group? Now…to me, those chances are to slim and to slight. Combine this with the way the international community felt at the end of the war, about the atrocities and the formation of Israel you start to see why there would be clear motivation to lie.

This was the era of the Zionist movement. Pre-World War 2, Zionism was very strong including many noted doctors, lawyers, etc all going with the Jews being the superior Aryan race (I even document a quote of Sigmund Freud saying this.) and it caused a lot of bad feelings and problems. It caused the hatred that allowed Hitler to get in power and to do his actions. But with the feeling after the war we also caused more problems. We take a very biased view on World War 2. The Zionist movement never being spoken of or the fact once Israel was formed Britain refused to acknowledge it as a country - for the simple reason they didn’t think that was right.

Maybe, if we removed the gag orders on German, British and American files on WW2, allowed people in these areas to publish material denying the holocaust (since that’s illegal in Germany, France and a few other countries.) we might be able to find out the solid truth.

It took nearly 50years for the truth about Bergan-Belson to come out and maybe once we allow people to do ’heavy research’ in the actual camps and read the real reports, files, etc instead of the censored version a true picture will arise. Once that displays the true death toll. Maybe once we’re allowed to view the immigration records, the birth and marriage statistics of the time and compare them. The real view will be shown. But we’re not allowed to. Why?

I will leave with one clear cut statement:

“Why is it, the holocaust records only show 3million names that died? When for years our governments claimed they have proof 6million did. Without the names, data of birth or any other published records. Once they do this, maybe then I will believe their statistics. Because if there’s one thing history taught me it was this: Without proof, it’s not fact. Without it being a fact, it’s an opinion. With every opinion, there’s a agenda and with every agenda there’s a point to prove.”

I think we’ve argued this to death.

Certain points of view such as mine that Hitler was a product of his time, would bring in the whole Nurture/Nature debate. Or the statistics, etc, etc.

I think we should drop this. Leave this so we can get back to the real discussion about the Nazi Atom bomb.

If you’d like to keep on discussing it, sminkeypinkey, feel free to U2U me. You make a good argument, with clear cut points. The Godfather of Conspira on the other hand, you might want to learn from your warning. You have to post things with insults attached and snide comments. It’s not worthwhile discussing anything with you, when you have a very childish personality and can't make a valid arguement without being rude. (In my view.)



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 09:13 AM
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Odium:

As I said before, I don't wish to argue anymore. We could on with this for years and no one would be satisfied that they have made their point. I already got warned, so there you go...

Another note, despite what you may think I had two family members who served in WW2, my grandfather was part of the Waffen-SS for a short time and my other grandfather fought for the French Army in 1943-45. So I do know something about WW2 from second and third hand experience, if you will.

You make some valid points and such but I still do not get your point? OK, so what if 11 Million people weren't killed by the Nazi's during the Holocaust, you seem to just throw these statistics/facts and numbers around like you don't give a crap, without realising the true horrors of something like this and what your saying. Please realise: The loss of life, no matter on what magnitude, no matter how bad or how it is carried, is always the worst act that someone can perpetuate on another human being. It does not matter how many people were killed during the "Holocaust" or how, the point is that it was an evil and sick idea carried out by the Nazi's and Hitler, and had a great impact on society and alot of people, and we should never forgot the tradgedy of such a thing. All I want you to know, is that you are fully aware of the horror of such thing like the "Holocaust" and death and sadness it brought to so may lives and that Hitler and the Nazi's are responsible for it and that they were not good people, and they committed some of the worsts acts of evil in history. If you learn anything from me (seeing how you disregard most of my information), please learn this:

"Life is the most precious and treasured gift of humanity, and is the most valued thing by the Lord. All forms of life is to be preserved and forever cared for by humanity and God. To take away a life from any living being on our great Earth, is the worst act one can commit and do to another human, and is the greatest sin, and something that can never be forgiven by God. To take away one life, is to take away all life from the Lord's planet..."

- The Quran, Surah 1:12 (roughly translated)

Please explain to me the point you were trying to make...

P.S. Read some of accounts or poems written by survivors of Auschwitz or other Nazi Concentration Camps. You will see how evil the "Holocaust" was, and it really makes you think how anyone could carry out such sadness and evil...

[edit on 9/3/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]

[edit on 9/3/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]

[edit on 9/3/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]



posted on Mar, 9 2005 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by The Godfather of Conspira

Another note, despite what you may think I had two family members who served in WW2, my grandfather was part of the Waffen-SS for a short time and my other grandfather fought for the French Army in 1943-45. So I do know something about WW2 from second and third hand experience, if you will.


You had a grandfather in the SS, what unit ?



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 04:09 AM
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rogue1:

My grandfather on my dad's side, who is still alive
, joined the SS in 1938 in the 104th Waffen-SS Armour Division (I think). He was a tank commander, but only served in the SS until 1939. He is NOT an evil man, nor did do any bad things during his tour of duty, and was one of the only Non-Aryan people to be in the Waffen-SS Armour Division at the time (my family is all Yugoslavian, I was born in Bosnia). Afterwards he left the SS, never told me why (don't think it was a good reason either), and joined the Austrian Army, he fought during WW2 against Russians in Poland and Czecholslovakia, after the war the Austrian Army disbanded, he returned to Yugoslavia, which was liberated, and now lives in Australia with my family. He was conscripted into the German Army when they captured Yugoslavia, as the Germans forced alot of Eastern Europeans into the Waffen-SS and Army, however he wasn't treated harshily and he served well in the SS and still has 2 medals.

I'm going to stay out of this discussion for now, until everyone gets back on topic...


[edit on 10/3/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 04:24 AM
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I find Groundzero's comments (if he is indeed a Dutchman) amazing.
What is he saying? Imagine if Hitler's nazism had won WW2 and suddenly transformed itself to become a tolerant, unified, co-operative and lacking discrimination?!

No, it WOULD NOT exist because there was little diversity, ofcourse this wouldn't stop sexual and age discrimination. I am dutch, I can show you my passport if you like, I said nothing like it would be a TOLERANT society, but definitly unified and cooperative. discrimination would be nearly irradicated.


The Godfather of Conspira is right, this is tedious idiot trolling at it's worst, sadly once again.

Ridiculing fits the context of "trolling" much beter, that's what you are doing.

Clearly this is bored kiddies saying something outrageous to provoke a response.

Don't insult me, i'm 23 years old, I have read much materials and my wife did extensive research on the subject for a school project, she taught me alot and I studied this as well.

It's just shameful there is no topic beyond sh*tting over this way, not even WW2, the hugely documented nazi war-crimes and the Holocaust itself.

As stated before, what part of this information is UNBIASED? good luck finding any form of material that is completely unbiased.


What part of what I have wrote was pro-Nazi? what part SUPPORTS the Nazi movement? maybe stating that PERHAPS the world would have been beter under a Nazi regime? I would also be a poor candidate for a pure aryan, I have many ancestors from various ethicies, including Indonesian and Italian, I don't support Neo-Nazi's, I don't condone Hitler's ways, but I do support his MOTIVES, his motive was WORLD PEACE, WORLD UNITY, ofcourse his means were terrible.

I do NOT like being ridiculed for my opinion and PERSONAL INSULT WILL NOT BE TOLLERATED.

I am not some kid trolling about, I mean what I say, am I sure about what is say? NO! I question MY SELF AS STATED BEFORE, I did NOT resort to profanity, I did not engage in PERSONAL INSULTS, that is what Conspira was warned for.



posted on Mar, 10 2005 @ 06:12 AM
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GrOuNdZeRo:

Nobody honestly cares, you can support the Nazi's all you want if you like, just don't do it here. I find what you say really sad, and how you think the world would have been better under a Nazi Regime, and I think you are one of the few people in world who expresses an opinion like this, so please, don't say it (I find it hard to believe your Dutch, and yet you say these pro-Nazi things... Holland suffered so badly during WW2 under Nazi Rule and many civilians died) . Please stop argueing and get back to topic now. If want to argue go start another topic.

[edit on 10/3/05 by The Godfather of Conspira]



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