Trump Scraps Obama-Era Rules For Energy Efficient Bulbs

a reply to: TheScale

I wasn't aware of the UV sensitivity. Thanks for the heads-up on that.

And I agree with the rest. Every new technology, especially one that was rushed to market like early LED bulbs were (thanks in large part to the very regulations this thread is about) has issues, even if they don't seem like issues at the time. Model A Fords had a top speed of what? 20 mph? No shocks, manual start with a crank, and a short engine life as well.

That's why I never want the "latest and greatest." I want the model everyone is giving up for the "latest and greatest." I don't care to be the guinea pig, and I save lots of money in the process of not being the guinea pig.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TGunner

A new rule was issued on Wednesday reversing a requirement, enacted during Barack Obama’s presidency, for all new light bulbs to be energy-efficient by 2020.

The Energy Department said that the rule change “will ensure that the choice of how to light homes and businesses is left to the American people, not the federal government”

The move, welcomed by industry has been strongly criticized by climate change groups. The move is also in line with Donald Trumps 2012 warnings about the dangers of so called “environmentally friendly” light bulbs.

Trump Scraps Obama-Era Rules For Energy Efficient Bulbs

I'm really kinda happy about this, I never liked the new bulbs. I bought 10 boxes of Incandescent lights a few years ago so i wouldn't run out of them so, good decision on his part.

Remember, new "environment friendly" light bulbs can cause cancer. Be careful-- the idiots who came up with this stuff don't care. Donald J. Trump 2012

Ah yes, I remember those days too, we bought a few cartons ourselves. Ketsuko is sensitive to CFL flickering, they trigger her migraines. We skipped the CFL blitz entirely and held out for the LED's as long as possible. We had to buy a few in the $30 range early on, but thankfully they have dropped in price.

Funny side note, since the LEDs don't generate heat the way Incandescents did we've noticed a small bump in the winter heating bill, probably offset by a drop in the summer cooling bill.

originally posted by: smurfy
They are not perfect as yet, they do have other content that is not so good, lead, arsenic is there, and all the lessons are not yet learned, or not been implemented...

How do you get to the arsenic and lead on an LED light bulb?

a reply to: ArMaP

Atomic arsenic can be used as a dopant in some semiconductors. I do not recommend one eat LEDs. A few thousand might contain enough arsenic to prove problematic and they are not intended as a nutritional supplement.

I think his lead comment is simply out of date. Almost everything manufactured today is RoHS compliant (aka "lead-free"). Many years ago the "tinning" on solderable leads was a tin-lead alloy.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: smurfy
They are not perfect as yet, they do have other content that is not so good, lead, arsenic is there, and all the lessons are not yet learned, or not been implemented...

How do you get to the arsenic and lead on an LED light bulb?

they're in LED's that use semiconductors, sealed in plastic.

en.wikipedia.org...

There are plenty of other links available.
While I think that the warmlight ones I use are pretty safe, the public et al....that includes me, does need to be better versed on the kinds of LED's that are on sale.

a reply to: TheRedneck
a reply to: smurfy

That was my point, even if LEDs have arsenic and lead, they are not in reach of a common user, we need to take the light bulbs apart to get to the LEDs and then to open the LEDs themselves to get to the arsenic.

Saying that LED light bulbs have arsenic and lead, although true, is misleading. We can also say that chickens have arsenic (they do), but does makes them a health problem?

a reply to: ArMaP

As far as that goes, we likely ingest arsenic every day... just in quantities so small as to be unnoticeable. A single atom of arsenic won't kill a person, but it sounds bad because arsenic is a well-known poison in larger quantities.

Amounts used in doping are on the order of a few hundred or thousand atoms... minuscule to the extreme and securely/deeply embedded in the semiconductor wafer via ion injection.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: ArMaP
a reply to: TheRedneck
a reply to: smurfy

That was my point, even if LEDs have arsenic and lead, they are not in reach of a common user, we need to take the light bulbs apart to get to the LEDs and then to open the LEDs themselves to get to the arsenic.

Saying that LED light bulbs have arsenic and lead, although true, is misleading. We can also say that chickens have arsenic (they do), but does makes them a health problem?

There is no intent to mislead,
as the EU report of 2018 says itself, The Committee concluded that there is no evidence of direct adverse health effects from LEDs emission in normal use

ec.europa.eu...

Even so,
There can be harmful damage from certain LED's in their operation though, I had some peripheral damage to the rods in my right eye, from an intense Blue headlight on a car sitting at a junction as I drove by one early evening, when I glanced in that direction.
That's why I say people need to be properly informed of any dangers...some yahoos fit these lamps to their vehicles themselves, and that's probably what happened to me.

originally posted by: smurfy
There is no intent to mislead,
as the EU report of 2018 says itself, The Committee concluded that there is no evidence of direct adverse health effects from LEDs emission in normal use

ec.europa.eu...

Then why did you say that LEDs have arsenic? That what I was referring to, that saying that LEDs have arsenic is misleading, as the arsenic in them is not harmful to us.

Even so,
There can be harmful damage from certain LED's in their operation though, I had some peripheral damage to the rods in my right eye, from an intense Blue headlight on a car sitting at a junction as I drove by one early evening, when I glanced in that direction.
That's why I say people need to be properly informed of any dangers...some yahoos fit these lamps to their vehicles themselves, and that's probably what happened to me.

Bad use of a tool is not the tool's fault. I doubt that guy was worried about possible hill effects on people from the lights on his car.

I completed switching over the whole house to LEDs from a mix of CFLs and incandescents earlier this year. A 24 pack of LED bubs to fit a standard socket ran me $20. A 6-pack of LED globes for the bathroom ran me $18. I didn't even bother with the electric company's rebate offer, 30 LED bulbs ran me $38 bucks, That's preeeetty damn cheap compared to when they first hit the market.

Now my bathroom isn't a proverbial heatwave in 60 seconds with 6 incandescent bulbs running, which is freakin' NICE. Those bastards made the bathroom so damn hot that I had to take 4 of them out to control the heat just from the bulbs in that little bathroom. Not anymore, all 6 sockets are occupied and shining bright. I could have probably switched to CFL globes, but 6 of those would have been throwing some collective heat, too.

I need to find an LED bulb for the tabletop torchiere light we recently pulled out of a storage box and put on the fireplace bookshelf, that stupid bulb throws as much heat as a full size incandescent, ugh.

Ultimately, I'm pretty pleased with them. IMO, the light color is more natural than CFLs, and just as warm & inviting as incandescents. My CFLs' color temp was printed on their bases, 2700. The LEDs are also 2700, but they feel MUCH more natural for some reason.
That and the lack of a heat bubble around them, and being SO much cheaper to run? No regrets on my part. I can't think of any reason I'd revert to previous bulb types.

originally posted by: ArMaP

originally posted by: smurfy
There is no intent to mislead,
as the EU report of 2018 says itself, The Committee concluded that there is no evidence of direct adverse health effects from LEDs emission in normal use

ec.europa.eu...

Then why did you say that LEDs have arsenic? That what I was referring to, that saying that LEDs have arsenic is misleading, as the arsenic in them is not harmful to us.

Even so,
There can be harmful damage from certain LED's in their operation though, I had some peripheral damage to the rods in my right eye, from an intense Blue headlight on a car sitting at a junction as I drove by one early evening, when I glanced in that direction.
That's why I say people need to be properly informed of any dangers...some yahoos fit these lamps to their vehicles themselves, and that's probably what happened to me.

Bad use of a tool is not the tool's fault. I doubt that guy was worried about possible hill effects on people from the lights on his car.

I said it was sealed in plastic, that obviously means it is safe as long as it is sealed.
When the time comes as LED's are no longer working, then they need to be disposed of, I have no idea as to what the ultilities will do with them.
Now, for instance, cars with red LED's have much higher concentrations of the metals in them, and in an accident, the report actually recommends emergency services wear protective clothing when dealing with car accident wreckage.

I'll bet you that none of those recommendations are being carried out as yet, while even the report admits that there is much more to be learnt by themselves,
"Since the use of LED technology is still evolving, the Committee considers that it is important to closely monitor the risk of adverse health effects from long-term LED use by the general population." you will find it also in the report I linked, so even the report is really a work in progress.
Please note also that I already have said I think that the LED's I use are safe, even though they will still have those metals in them...that means I think the risk is low, that does not mean I know they are safe.
Arsenic and lead are old bedfellows, themselves used in making plastic items for years a plastic self colourant I think...Tuppawear comes to mind, and the stuff contains other metals that can leach out, hence that health scare...by governments, and with good reason.

originally posted by: smurfy
I said it was sealed in plastic, that obviously means it is safe as long as it is sealed.

You didn't say that on the post I was commenting, you said:

They are not perfect as yet, they do have other content that is not so good, lead, arsenic is there, and all the lessons are not yet learned, or not been implemented...it's just that manufacturers tend to utilise in their products...pretty much like how the rest of us get on board with new stuff.
In other words, there is no law against it

When the time comes as LED's are no longer working, then they need to be disposed of, I have no idea as to what the ultilities will do with them.

Besides containers for recycling glass, plastic, paper and batteries we also have containers for small electronic appliances.

Now, for instance, cars with red LED's have much higher concentrations of the metals in them, and in an accident, the report actually recommends emergency services wear protective clothing when dealing with car accident wreckage.

I didn't see that reference in the report.

I'll bet you that none of those recommendations are being carried out as yet, while even the report admits that there is much more to be learnt by themselves,

That's the problem with new uses of already known technology, the people that study those effects on the users do not have enough data yet.

Arsenic and lead are old bedfellows, themselves used in making plastic items for years a plastic self colourant I think...Tuppawear comes to mind, and the stuff contains other metals that can leach out, hence that health scare...by governments, and with good reason.

Yes, some years ago we were surrounded by bad things and we didn't have a clue about it.

a reply to: smurfy

As I already stated, LEDs are now lead-free, as are most other electronic components. The lead was used to tin the contacts, just like solder was once, not long ago actually, a tin-lead mixture.

As for the arsenic leaching out, you apparently do not understand what ion implantation is. The arsenic used for doping is not sitting there in a pile waiting to leach out... it is individual atoms that are scattered more or less uniformly throughout the area of the substrate. It cannot leach out... that's not even possible for more than maybe 10s of atoms. Each atom is tightly bound covalently to the next atom in the crystalline structure. It has to be that way or the PN junction will not function.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: ArMaP

You didn't say that on the post I was commenting,.....

You asked how I got to Arsenic on LED'S,

To me that was you questioning as to those things actually being in LED's, that's why I gave the the links. It's actually funny as I come to think of it, so now I realise what you meant.
Anyway, as I already said, I consider them safe enough to use, that doesn't take away from them not being totally safe for any specific time, use, accident or any kind of event that can degrade them to the extent that all the substances can be released.

So, let's stop the bickering, and consider this link from 2011 though it is older than the 2018 pdf I posted,

Extract; "Lead, arsenic and many additional metals discovered in the bulbs or their related parts have been linked in hundreds of studies to different cancers, neurological damage, kidney disease, hypertension, skin rashes and other illnesses. The copper used in some LEDs also poses an ecological threat to fish, rivers and lakes.

Ogunseitan said that breaking a single light and breathing fumes would not automatically cause cancer, but could be a tipping point on top of chronic exposure to another carcinogen. And -- noting that lead tastes sweet -- he warned that small children could be harmed if they mistake the bright lights for candy.

Risks are present in all parts of the lights and at every stage during production, use and disposal, the study found. Consumers, manufacturers and first responders to accident scenes ought to be aware of this, Ogunseitan said. When bulbs break at home, residents should sweep them up with a special broom while wearing gloves and a mask, he advised. Crews dispatched to clean up car crashes or broken traffic fixtures should don protective gear and handle the material as hazardous waste. Currently, LEDs are not classified as toxic and are disposed of in regular landfills. Ogunseitan has forwarded the study results to California and federal health regulators.

He cites LED's as a perfect example of the need to mandate product replacement testing."

www.sciencedaily.com...

a reply to: smurfy

That article is pure BS. If breaking the globe and breathing what is in it can assist in causing cancer, then air assists in causing cancer... because an LED bulb is not sealed like a normal light bulb! That's just air in there. Want proof? Cut the globe off of one (it's just thin plastic; it won't even shatter) and turn it on... it'll work just fine.

CFLs contain mercury vapor... incandescents are evacuated and filled with inert gases... but LED globes are really just for show. The only thing they do is maybe, and this is not even all of them, have a thin phosphorescent coating on the inside to soften the light just like an incandescent soft white bulb.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: smurfy

As I already stated, LEDs are now lead-free, as are most other electronic components. The lead was used to tin the contacts, just like solder was once, not long ago actually, a tin-lead mixture.

As for the arsenic leaching out, you apparently do not understand what ion implantation is. The arsenic used for doping is not sitting there in a pile waiting to leach out... it is individual atoms that are scattered more or less uniformly throughout the area of the substrate. It cannot leach out... that's not even possible for more than maybe 10s of atoms. Each atom is tightly bound covalently to the next atom in the crystalline structure. It has to be that way or the PN junction will not function.

TheRedneck

I'm not challenging anything you say, doping is part of the process, however what you bring up is the same as ArMaP's assumption, that of a tiny bit of hard plastic being indomitable..it isn't..tough as poly-carbonate is.
However I do object to someone calling me a scaremonger to boot, ArMap I considered as a friend...but there you go. Also I agreed with you in your first post, since I use the things myself, ones that I consider safe, still I got no reply anyway.

a reply to: smurfy

The plastic isn't the issue... even if the LED is shredded into dust, the material that makes up the PN junction would still not give up its arsenic. It is too deeply embedded. There is no way I know of to remove the arsenic from the junction once implanted. That's not to say one does not exist, but I do not have knowledge of it.

The crystalline structure, if we assume silicon for the sake of argument, is a regular cubic matrix of Si atoms stacked side by side, each one neighboring and covalently bonded to six others. Implantation removes one of these Si atoms and replaces it with an arsenic atom which is also covalently bonded to six neighbors. The difference is that arsenic has one more valence electron than silicon, so that leftover electron can be moved around the crystalline structure easily. That forms the N part of the PN junction. The P part uses a different element, such as aluminum, which has one fewer valence electron than silicon and therefore creates an area of positive charge known as a "hole" which can also move easily throughout the structure. Electrons at the N side repel free electrons from the dopant toward the junction, while positive charge at the P side does the same to the holes. At the junction, electrons and holes combine to cancel each other out and new electrons and holes are created by the applied charges.

I need to point out for clarity that arsenic is typically used as a dopant in a germanium matrix since the atoms are of similar physical sizes; silicon wafers typically use phosphorous. I mixed and matched simply because we were discussing the arsenic and most people are more familiar with silicon substrates. The operation does not change.

The light is produced when holes and electrons combine at the junction. The energy of the holes and electrons depends on the material used, and the wavelength of the EM radiation produced depends on the energy of the holes and electrons. Every diode does this; LEDs simply use materials that have the right energies to produce radiation of a visible wavelength and a clear (yes, plastic) covering so the light can be used once produced.

The point, though, which I posted all that boring stuff to get to, is that the impurities are so deeply ingrained that if one ground the substrate to dust, the only thing that would change would be that one would have millions instead of trillions or more atoms bound together. Each speck of dust might contain ten or twenty individual atoms of dopant, still tightly bound together within the crystalline structure. Even overheating the junction cannot release the dopant; it can cause microscopic cracks to form within the structure, destroying its ability to function correctly, but the crystalline structure still remains. The same with burning. The substrates have such a high temperature of combustion that one would literally have to throw them into a star to get them to completely combust. The burnt areas one might see on an integrated circuit are not the substrate; they are the case, which is either high-temp plastic or ceramic. The substrate will not burn; one might as well try to burn sand.

There you go: that is the gist of maybe three classes in a sophomore college-level course on semiconductor theory (without the heavy math). It should show you that your fears are unfounded. LEDs are perfectly safe for both humans and the environment once manufactured.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Teikiatsu

Thanks for responding,

a reply to: hiddeninsite

Excellent, i'll check those out thanks

originally posted by: Tarzan the apeman.
a reply to: TGunner

I'm all for LED bulbs. I'm also for the government not telling someone what they can and cant use for lighting in their home. I got lucky as far as price. Where I work they brought in a company where one could buy LED bulb for not a lot of money. They had all sorts of different bulbs. I went nuts and stocked up. I haven't had one burn out yet.

Exactly, the gov. has too much power as it is, so this was good news for us

Thanks