Trump is raising your taxes today

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: blueman12
I wonder if trump's tariffs will actually work. I think i read somewhere that tariffs have hardly ever accomplished their goals in the past.

I have a feeling Trump is gambling on these tariffs paying off.

Well trump is a gambler who owned casinos. Perhaps his tariffs will share the same fate.

www.businessinsider.com...

Or maybe more likely he will keep winning just like he has been doing as President.
And owning casinos doesn't make one a gambler, but rather a provider of gambling for gamblers.
-And gambling at your own casino isn't really gambling. How can you lose?

a reply to: ScepticScot

If tarrifs are a tax because they have the same potential of raising cost (along with a number of other variables), then obviously we can just look at this as externality tax, as it could have the same potential. So are we in agreement now?

originally posted by: TheLead
a reply to: ScepticScot

If tarrifs are a tax because they have the same potential of raising cost (along with a number of other variables), then obviously we can just look at this as externality tax, as it could have the same potential. So are we in agreement now?

Tariffs are a tax as they are a form of taxation just like a sales tax.

They are a rate on the price of goods regardless of any environmental impact. Now if the rates are applied to countries with laxer environmental standard or poorer product life's then you might indirectly get the benefit you are looking for but it's quite a broad brush way of doing it.

Personally I would advocate for a scheme that replaced much of the current corporate taxes and Tariffs with an externality tax but that is going way off topic.

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: blueman12
I wonder if trump's tariffs will actually work. I think i read somewhere that tariffs have hardly ever accomplished their goals in the past.

I have a feeling Trump is gambling on these tariffs paying off.

Well trump is a gambler who owned casinos. Perhaps his tariffs will share the same fate.

www.businessinsider.com...

Or maybe more likely he will keep winning just like he has been doing as President.
And owning casinos doesn't make one a gambler, but rather a provider of gambling for gamblers.
-And gambling at your own casino isn't really gambling. How can you lose?

imo, trump is gambling with the economic future of this nation. His casinos...how did that work out for him? Winning???

www.businessinsider.com...

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed

originally posted by: olaru12

originally posted by: blueman12
I wonder if trump's tariffs will actually work. I think i read somewhere that tariffs have hardly ever accomplished their goals in the past.

I have a feeling Trump is gambling on these tariffs paying off.

Well trump is a gambler who owned casinos. Perhaps his tariffs will share the same fate.

www.businessinsider.com...

Or maybe more likely he will keep winning just like he has been doing as President.
And owning casinos doesn't make one a gambler, but rather a provider of gambling for gamblers.
-And gambling at your own casino isn't really gambling. How can you lose?

imo, trump is gambling with the economic future of this nation. His casinos...how's that work out for him?

Business left the area. It's what is happening in America and why Trump needs to take action.
Action or inaction are both gambles, so far inaction has been destroying this country and making our biggest enemy more powerful.

I was hoping Obama would do exactly what Trump is doing, and Bush before him.

a reply to: ScepticScot

The arguments for or against tariffs are completely different from the argument that raising tariffs isn't raising taxes.

Not really. The implication you are putting forth is that the tariffs are a direct tax, like an excise or income tax. They are not. They are a tax on certain goods form a certain country levied against the importers of that country buying those goods. They are not a tax on an American citizen.

Now, if you want to make the claim that taxation of those importers will raise the retail cost of the products taxed, then by all means feel free; I have agreed with you that this is quite possible, and even probable in the long term. But you have, in a later post, equated a tariff with an excise tax, and the two are simply not the same. An excise tax (or an income tax) is paid directly to the government. Even though one may pay said excise tax at a retail outlet, the tax is specified as a tax to the government in addition to the cost of the goods. There will not be a time when anyone has to pay a tariff tax to the government, unless they are importing goods from a country under tariffs.

The same implication says that the tariffs will reduce the buying power of people. That's what a direct tax does, right? The excise tax here is 9%, so if I have $100 to purchase goods with, I can still only purchase $91.74 worth of goods; the rest must be used to pay the tax. With the tariffs we are discussing, however, the benefits of the indirect tax have potential to far outweigh any reduction in buying power. If more jobs are created and the resulting lack of labor supply drives labor costs up 10%, for instance, and the tariffs have added 10% to the cost of the goods they are levied upon, then my buying power has actually increased. All of my income will likely not be used to purchase Chinese tariffed goods.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot

The arguments for or against tariffs are completely different from the argument that raising tariffs isn't raising taxes.

Not really. The implication you are putting forth is that the tariffs are a direct tax, like an excise or income tax. They are not. They are a tax on certain goods form a certain country levied against the importers of that country buying those goods. They are not a tax on an American citizen.

Now, if you want to make the claim that taxation of those importers will raise the retail cost of the products taxed, then by all means feel free; I have agreed with you that this is quite possible, and even probable in the long term. But you have, in a later post, equated a tariff with an excise tax, and the two are simply not the same. An excise tax (or an income tax) is paid directly to the government. Even though one may pay said excise tax at a retail outlet, the tax is specified as a tax to the government in addition to the cost of the goods. There will not be a time when anyone has to pay a tariff tax to the government, unless they are importing goods from a country under tariffs.

The same implication says that the tariffs will reduce the buying power of people. That's what a direct tax does, right? The excise tax here is 9%, so if I have $100 to purchase goods with, I can still only purchase $91.74 worth of goods; the rest must be used to pay the tax. With the tariffs we are discussing, however, the benefits of the indirect tax have potential to far outweigh any reduction in buying power. If more jobs are created and the resulting lack of labor supply drives labor costs up 10%, for instance, and the tariffs have added 10% to the cost of the goods they are levied upon, then my buying power has actually increased. All of my income will likely not be used to purchase Chinese tariffed goods.

TheRedneck

The tax is paid by in the US by US importers.

It is very much a tax and will, if kept on make goods more expensive for US customers.

If China , or anywhere, can produce goods cheaper than the US the applying tariffs to make US goods more competitive increase the cost of those goods. There is simply no getting round that. There might be political or ethical arguments for the tarrif but the increase in cost is still there

Perhaps you could explain your last paragraph as it sounds like you are arguing increasing labour costs increase your purchasing power and I assume I am misreading what you mean.

a reply to: TheRedneck

Don't forget monopolies. They have a large part in prices of what you see.

Edit: forget what i said that's exactly what your talking about.

People are too jammed up the maga scamhole.
Tarriffs are are direct front-end sales tax when they are designed like they are.
Our econ is China based on goods.
They intentionally left it low enough to produce income for the gov and not effect a change in factory locations.
Guess who pays?
Trumps a gd shill waving a flag playing us.
Bbbbbbbbb but King trump actually saved me taxes. Like 100 bucks a month!!
Jesus people, wake tf up.
Out of one pocket, then both hands into the other.
If I were them, I'd find a bunch of impressionable emotion-based people online, or even bot my own to focus anger on emotion based issues to make anyone calling out Trump look unstable.
-oh wait

a reply to: Mandroid7

So lets just let China continue like before while stealing military and aerospace secrets at the same time from us, while we give them every unfair concession, so they can eventually use what they have gained at our expense and losses against America?

NAHHHH

a reply to: ScepticScot

The tax is paid by in the US by US importers.

The tax is paid in the US by US-based importers. Most are run by legal Chinese nationals. I should know; I deal with them quite often for materials hard to get or extremely expensive through US channels.

It is very much a tax and will, if kept on make goods more expensive for US customers.

Quite probably, yes, if the cost is too great to be absorbed.

If China , or anywhere, can produce goods cheaper than the US the applying tariffs to make US goods more competitive increase the cost of those goods.

When that cost cannot be absorbed by the manufacturer/exporter, yes. Your assumption is that the prices are already as low as they can be, and any cost increase cannot be absorbed. That is a reasonable argument in a free market.

My argument is that we are not dealing with free market trade. We are dealing with a currency manipulator. That changes the dynamic. In addition, the tariffs are not permanent; they exist to pressure China into dealing fairly, by stopping their currency manipulation and dropping their tariffs against our products. Once this is accomplished, the tariffs will be lifted, probably before China can no longer absorb the cost.

You are seeing this issue from one side only. The other side is what I have been pointing out. Right now, China is running a huge trade surplus with the United States. That surplus is caused by the two things I mentioned above. By devaluing its currency, China inflates our currency inside China, and causes prices for their products to be much lower than they would be if they did not devalue their currency. That places US-based businesses in a quandary: they can relocate to China and carry those jobs with them, or they can not compete. It also inflates the price of US goods in China. Tariffs as well, as you mention, inflate the cost of US goods in China, and thus they do not import as much. That hurts our economy as well, because less exports mean less jobs.

This is applicable to the question of whether a tariff is a tax because it goes to the heart of why the tariffs are in place and how long they will be there. The tariffs are seriously hurting the Chinese economy because they reduce the amount of money China gets from the US. That is not sustainable, as you pointed out. Therefore, China has a choice: comply with our demands for fair market trade, or lose a large portion of their US trade. They do not want to lose our trade, since it is that trade that has fueled their own economy. Ergo, China will, at some future time, comply and the tariffs will be lifted.

That goes to the heart of your point that the tariffs will raise prices. If left on indefinitely, they would. But that is not the plan. As long as the tariffs are used to force compliance, the price of Chinese goods will not be affected, at least not seriously.

Perhaps you could explain your last paragraph as it sounds like you are arguing increasing labour costs increase your purchasing power and I assume I am misreading what you mean.

Again, you are looking at one side of the equation. Most Americans work for others, therefore their income is based on the labor wage. If the cost of labor goes up, those workers will receive more for their labor. More income equals more buying power.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheLead
a reply to: ScepticScot

So keep the useless waste alive to keep perpetuating a cycle of need. Immediatary decisions have long term costs, we need to do better in this area anyway. If thats you're arguement dont dare tell people how much you care about the enviroment.

This here is wisdom. The Trump haters can't fathom the fact that cheap crap from China is seriously bad for the environment.

That would seriously damage their illogical narrative.

I've bought this cheap Chinese crap before and it has needed replacing in a couple of months at the most. Then I need to replace said cheap Chinese crap. I'm talking charger cables, power adaptors,, batteries even.

This sh!t is really bad for the environment. I love cheap stuff but what about the environment bro?

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ScepticScot

The tax is paid by in the US by US importers.

The tax is paid in the US by US-based importers. Most are run by legal Chinese nationals. I should know; I deal with them quite often for materials hard to get or extremely expensive through US channels.

It is very much a tax and will, if kept on make goods more expensive for US customers.

Quite probably, yes, if the cost is too great to be absorbed.

If China , or anywhere, can produce goods cheaper than the US the applying tariffs to make US goods more competitive increase the cost of those goods.

When that cost cannot be absorbed by the manufacturer/exporter, yes. Your assumption is that the prices are already as low as they can be, and any cost increase cannot be absorbed. That is a reasonable argument in a free market.

My argument is that we are not dealing with free market trade. We are dealing with a currency manipulator. That changes the dynamic. In addition, the tariffs are not permanent; they exist to pressure China into dealing fairly, by stopping their currency manipulation and dropping their tariffs against our products. Once this is accomplished, the tariffs will be lifted, probably before China can no longer absorb the cost.

You are seeing this issue from one side only. The other side is what I have been pointing out. Right now, China is running a huge trade surplus with the United States. That surplus is caused by the two things I mentioned above. By devaluing its currency, China inflates our currency inside China, and causes prices for their products to be much lower than they would be if they did not devalue their currency. That places US-based businesses in a quandary: they can relocate to China and carry those jobs with them, or they can not compete. It also inflates the price of US goods in China. Tariffs as well, as you mention, inflate the cost of US goods in China, and thus they do not import as much. That hurts our economy as well, because less exports mean less jobs.

This is applicable to the question of whether a tariff is a tax because it goes to the heart of why the tariffs are in place and how long they will be there. The tariffs are seriously hurting the Chinese economy because they reduce the amount of money China gets from the US. That is not sustainable, as you pointed out. Therefore, China has a choice: comply with our demands for fair market trade, or lose a large portion of their US trade. They do not want to lose our trade, since it is that trade that has fueled their own economy. Ergo, China will, at some future time, comply and the tariffs will be lifted.

That goes to the heart of your point that the tariffs will raise prices. If left on indefinitely, they would. But that is not the plan. As long as the tariffs are used to force compliance, the price of Chinese goods will not be affected, at least not seriously.

Perhaps you could explain your last paragraph as it sounds like you are arguing increasing labour costs increase your purchasing power and I assume I am misreading what you mean.

Again, you are looking at one side of the equation. Most Americans work for others, therefore their income is based on the labor wage. If the cost of labor goes up, those workers will receive more for their labor. More income equals more buying power.

TheRedneck

The idea that China is an currency manipulator seems to a political move by the administration to justify the tariffs. Neither the IMF nor the treasury departments own reports agreed.

Which is not to say they wouldn't like the ability to manipulate their currency, its that as an economic strategy is inherently self defeating and China iswell aware If this.

There is a far stronger case to be made in my view regarding intellectual property rights or human rights.

In terms of cost to consumers if Chinese goods are cheaper than domestic produced ones then no amount of increasing wages can keep up with the increasing real cost of the goods. Its the macroeconomic version of Henry Ford claiming he pays his workers more so they can buy his cars.

The problem with the view that this will force China to do anything is the assumption.that China has no moves of its own. If prices start to rise or the economy starts to falter Trump has a very short window to resolve it. The Chinese government is much better placed to take the long view and ride it out.

a reply to: ScepticScot

China have been manipulating their currency for decades, it's hardly a secret.

If you think otherwise then you have not been paying attention.

originally posted by: Wide-Eyes
a reply to: ScepticScot

China have been manipulating their currency for decades, it's hardly a secret.

If you think otherwise then you have not been paying attention.

Treasury hadn't categorised it as a currency manipulator since the early 90s.


ETA _ correction it was mid 90s. As recently as May the treasury confirmed China didn't meet the criteria.


www.nytimes.com...

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: Mandroid7

So lets just let China continue like before while stealing military and aerospace secrets at the same time from us, while we give them every unfair concession, so they can eventually use what they have gained at our expense and losses against America?

NAHHHH

Again, like I just said
You are flag waving and thinking tarriffs are punishing China. You are being cocky about getting played.
It's like 10-20%

The problem is greedy politicians.
Outsource mfg, then turn around and make bank on the way back.
What don't you comprehend about a front end tax low enough to make bank and not cause mfg relocation?

I'd love to see our new cost of living increase vs the smoke up the ------- TEMPORARY "tax break"
Yah think the 100 bucks ish a month will cover it?
Lol, hell no, we've been played again.
Mr.smart guy "I pay no taxes Trump" is a shill.
You have to be stupid to not see what's happening.

Maga

Added

About your off topic on the military stuff, it's pretty common knowledge in eastern biz that they are expected to lie, cheat, spy and steal for the biz, or it's dishonorable.



and sorry about my terrible phoneposting skills..ugh

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: scrounger

Tell it to the farmers who are all on relief now.

hmm so bethhem steel that employed HUNDREDS of people with good paying jobs and paid good pensions to THOUSANDS that is now out of business (for a long time) due to china steel dont matter?

that many many businesses have gone under due to unfair state sponsored (china) tactics (including tariffs) is ok?

that even today china is stealing IP from american companies to be so brazen that even before a trade show ends they are starting production on the new products is just made up news?

Along with trump has gotten TWO COUNTRIES (mexico and canada) to negotiate better deals to help american companies . One example is canada LOWERING TARIFFS on AMERICAN DAIRY FARMER (say again FARMER) PRODUCTS.

Also negotiating with JAPAN to buy more farmer products.

sorry but your "hurting farmers card" has been declined

care to try another canned response ?


Scrounger

originally posted by: Mandroid7

originally posted by: NoCorruptionAllowed
a reply to: Mandroid7

So lets just let China continue like before while stealing military and aerospace secrets at the same time from us, while we give them every unfair concession, so they can eventually use what they have gained at our expense and losses against America?

NAHHHH

Again, like I just said
You are flag waving and thinking tarriffs are punishing China. You are being cocky about getting played.
It's like 10-20%

The problem is greedy politicians.
Outsource mfg, then turn around and make bank on the way back.
What don't you comprehend about a front end tax low enough to make bank and not cause mfg relocation?

I'd love to see our new cost of living increase vs the smoke up the ------- TEMPORARY "tax break"
Yah think the 100 bucks ish a month will cover it?
Lol, hell no, we've been played again.
Mr.smart guy "I pay no taxes Trump" is a shill.
You have to be stupid to not see what's happening.

Maga

Added

About your off topic on the military stuff, it's pretty common knowledge in eastern biz that they are expected to lie, cheat, spy and steal for the biz, or it's dishonorable.


and sorry about my terrible phoneposting skills..ugh

If it wasn't for the "off topic" things the Chinese are currently adding into the package for reasons to tax them, the tariffs might not have even been implemented. Playing nice with them hasn't gained any reciprocal response from China, thus the tariffs.
It all comes down to being taken advantage of for far too long as Trump has been saying 'ad infinitum', and letting them get away with all of it, until now.

It IS hurting China already in big ways, and I know this directly since I have lots of relatives and friends there.

Will it work though? I doubt it, knowing how inherently self centered the communist party is there.

ETA -Also, China has gotten used to having their cake and eating it too for so long, it's become a thriving addiction with a life force that might be unbreakable without harder punishment and further consequences, likely nothing good coming from it.

a reply to: ScepticScot

I know, right?

Trump is stealing my money.

a reply to: ScepticScot

The idea that China is an currency manipulator seems to a political move by the administration to justify the tariffs. Neither the IMF nor the treasury departments own reports agreed.

China has been manipulating currency for decades; that's how they built their entire economy.

There are some things in life that simply are, and cannot be changed. Winters are cold in Russia. Sean Hannity is a Republican. Bears are dangerous. And China manipulates their currency.

If you can't even admit to something that has been common knowledge for 50 years, there is no way to continue this debate.

TheRedneck