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Boris Johnson asks Queen to suspend Parliament

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posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:29 PM
link   

originally posted by: UKTruth

It will be the sixth time this year that Parliament has been out.
The issue is that Remainers will have less time to execute a plot to overthrow the govt. and reverse the result of the referendum...so obviously the media and Remainers are upset about it.


You know rightly that the hue and cry is specifically about a 'no deal' Brexit and the Boris deadline...and as well as that, there are many Conservative MPs, along with all the others, who realise that would be the worse case scenario, Boris has been advised that they all need to be shut up, to get his way and very likely Boris is poohing his pants since he is dependant on Parliament almost et al backing him to the hilt...which they are not.

The remainers, may be a lobby, but the least they are likely to get, entitled even, would have been some kind of deal along with the rest.




posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:29 PM
link   

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Your're both right, in a sense.
Can we compromise and call it "passive selection"?
It's like a Darwinian process. The elected House of Commons is the environment which determines ("selects") which "mutation" (party) has the best chance of surviving in government.



I like the term passive selection.

I agree there is no formal vote, however the formation of a UK government depends on support within parliament. The idea a UK government is formed other than through parliament is simply wrong.



From gov.uk


The Prime Minister is the leader of Her Majesty’s Government and is ultimately responsible for all policy and decisions. The Prime Minister also:
oversees the operation of the Civil Service and government agencies
appoints members of the government
is the principal government figure in the House of Commons


Parliament does not select the Prime Minister and thus can not possibly select the Govt.

The majority party(s) in Parliament form the Govt. and the minority party(s) in Parliament form the opposition.
The govt and parliament are not the same things.

You specifically made the claim that parliament selects the Govt. That is incorrect.
The majority in Parliament is selected by the people in an election and that majority forms a govt. It requires no selection by parliament at all.




edit on 28/8/2019 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:30 PM
link   
a reply to: ScepticScot
I'm not sure about that analysis. I think he believes that the Conservatives will be destroyed in an election unless they have first delivered Brexit. So I would regard him as sincere in not wanting an election until afterwards.



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:33 PM
link   

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Your're both right, in a sense.
Can we compromise and call it "passive selection"?
It's like a Darwinian process. The elected House of Commons is the environment which determines ("selects") which "mutation" (party) has the best chance of surviving in government.



I like the term passive selection.

I agree there is no formal vote, however the formation of a UK government depends on support within parliament. The idea a UK government is formed other than through parliament is simply wrong.



From gov.uk


The Prime Minister is the leader of Her Majesty’s Government and is ultimately responsible for all policy and decisions. The Prime Minister also:
oversees the operation of the Civil Service and government agencies
appoints members of the government
is the principal government figure in the House of Commons


Parliament does not select the Prime Minister and thus can not possibly select the Govt.

The majority party(s) in Parliament form the Govt. and the minority party(s) in Parliament form the opposition.
The govt and parliament are not the same things.





No one is claiming government and parliament are same thing.

The majority party forming the government means that parliament selects the government. Passively if you prefer, but they still select it.

We vote MPs into parliament, not parties.



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:38 PM
link   
Has anyone seen any Russian soldiers? This is the most recent tweet on the StopTheCoup hashtag;

Why are we not worried about the #JohnsonCoup in the United Kingdom đŸ‡¬đŸ‡§
?? What we are witnessing is the downfall and destruction of Western democracy with the aid of the Russian military!!



edit on 28-8-2019 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:40 PM
link   

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
I'm not sure about that analysis. I think he believes that the Conservatives will be destroyed in an election unless they have first delivered Brexit. So I would regard him as sincere in not wanting an election until afterwards.



I think he is using the promise of Brexit as a main issue to try win an election.

There looks like no way he can get support in parliament for either a no deal or a new deal brexit. If he goes through an embarrassing chain off defeats he will just look weak and incompetent.

Better to get one big defeat, frame ity as anti brexit vote and go for an election off the back of it.

I could well be miles off but seems to fit with BJs style.
edit on 28-8-2019 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:42 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

Canny see how Russia have a dog in the Brexit fight myself.

Unless they are offering a trade deal.


Somebody's "Putin" out fake news.



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:51 PM
link   
a reply to: ScepticScot
My own theory is;
Arrange some sort of deal without their interference.
Call them back at the last minute to approve deal, while pointing out that if they don't, there is no time left for anything else but a default NoDeal.

Or if no deal is possible;
Call them back at the last minute to approve NoDeal, pointing out that if even if they vote against, NoDeal will still happen anyway, because there is no time left for anything else.




edit on 28-8-2019 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:55 PM
link   

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Your're both right, in a sense.
Can we compromise and call it "passive selection"?
It's like a Darwinian process. The elected House of Commons is the environment which determines ("selects") which "mutation" (party) has the best chance of surviving in government.



I like the term passive selection.

I agree there is no formal vote, however the formation of a UK government depends on support within parliament. The idea a UK government is formed other than through parliament is simply wrong.



From gov.uk


The Prime Minister is the leader of Her Majesty’s Government and is ultimately responsible for all policy and decisions. The Prime Minister also:
oversees the operation of the Civil Service and government agencies
appoints members of the government
is the principal government figure in the House of Commons


Parliament does not select the Prime Minister and thus can not possibly select the Govt.

The majority party(s) in Parliament form the Govt. and the minority party(s) in Parliament form the opposition.
The govt and parliament are not the same things.





No one is claiming government and parliament are same thing.

The majority party forming the government means that parliament selects the government. Passively if you prefer, but they still select it.

We vote MPs into parliament, not parties.


These are the people who make up the top tier of our Govt today.
They run the govt and have departments that report into them or advise and attend cabinet meetings.
Please let me know which ones were selected by Parliament.
I count ZERO, but you may have some other information...?

Boris Johnson MP 2019–present
Dominic Raab MP 2019–present
Sajid Javid MP 2019–present
Priti Patel MP 2019–present
Michael Gove MP 2019–present
Robert Buckland MP 2019–present
Stephen Barclay MP 2018–present
Ben Wallace MP 2019–present
Matt Hancock MP 2018–present
Andrea Leadsom MP 2019–present
Elizabeth Truss MP 2019–present
Amber Rudd MP 2018–present
Gavin Williamson MP 2019–present
Theresa Villiers MP 2019–present
Robert Jenrick MP 2019–present
Grant Shapps MP 2019–present
Julian Smith MP 2019–present
Alister Jack MP 2019–present
Alun Cairns MP 2016–present
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PC 2016–present
Nicky Morgan MP 2019–present
Alok Sharma MP 2019–present
James Cleverly MP 2019–present
Rishi Sunak MP 2019–present
Jacob Rees-Mogg MP 2019–present
Mark Spencer MP 2019–present
Geoffrey Cox QC MP 2018–present
Kwasi Kwarteng MP 2019–present
Oliver Dowden MP 2019–present
Jake Berry MP 2019–present
Esther McVey MP 2019–present
Jo Johnson MP 2019–present
Brandon Lewis MP 2019–present
edit on 28/8/2019 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 06:56 PM
link   
a reply to: andy06shake
I think the explanation is that the anti-Trump and anti-Brexit movements are in such sympathy that any argument used by one will work for the other.



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:01 PM
link   

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Your're both right, in a sense.
Can we compromise and call it "passive selection"?
It's like a Darwinian process. The elected House of Commons is the environment which determines ("selects") which "mutation" (party) has the best chance of surviving in government.



I like the term passive selection.

I agree there is no formal vote, however the formation of a UK government depends on support within parliament. The idea a UK government is formed other than through parliament is simply wrong.



From gov.uk


The Prime Minister is the leader of Her Majesty’s Government and is ultimately responsible for all policy and decisions. The Prime Minister also:
oversees the operation of the Civil Service and government agencies
appoints members of the government
is the principal government figure in the House of Commons


Parliament does not select the Prime Minister and thus can not possibly select the Govt.

The majority party(s) in Parliament form the Govt. and the minority party(s) in Parliament form the opposition.
The govt and parliament are not the same things.





No one is claiming government and parliament are same thing.

The majority party forming the government means that parliament selects the government. Passively if you prefer, but they still select it.

We vote MPs into parliament, not parties.


These are the people who make up the top tier of our Govt today.
They run the govt and have departments that report into them or attend cabinet meetings.
Please let me know which ones were selected by Parliament.

Boris Johnson MP 2019–present
Dominic Raab MP 2019–present
Sajid Javid MP 2019–present
Priti Patel MP 2019–present
Michael Gove MP 2019–present
Robert Buckland MP 2019–present
Stephen Barclay MP 2018–present
Ben Wallace MP 2019–present
Matt Hancock MP 2018–present
Andrea Leadsom MP 2019–present
Elizabeth Truss MP 2019–present
Amber Rudd MP 2018–present
Gavin Williamson MP 2019–present
Theresa Villiers MP 2019–present
Robert Jenrick MP 2019–present
Grant Shapps MP 2019–present
Julian Smith MP 2019–present
Alister Jack MP 2019–present
Alun Cairns MP 2016–present
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PC 2016–present
Nicky Morgan MP 2019–present
Alok Sharma MP 2019–present
James Cleverly MP 2019–present
Rishi Sunak MP 2019–present
Jacob Rees-Mogg MP 2019–present
Mark Spencer MP 2019–present
Geoffrey Cox QC MP 2018–present
Kwasi Kwarteng MP 2019–present
Oliver Dowden MP 2019–present
Jake Berry MP 2019–present
Esther McVey MP 2019–present
Jo Johnson MP 2019–present
Brandon Lewis MP 2019–present



They are appointed by the prime minister who is only prime minister by commanding a majority in parliament.

If you don't think the government is formed by parliament then who do you think does do it?



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:04 PM
link   

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
My own theory is;
Arrange some sort of deal without their interference.
Call them back at the last minute to approve deal, while pointing out that if they don't, there is no time left for anything else but a default NoDeal.

Or if no deal is possible;
Call them back at the last minute to approve NoDeal, pointing out that if even if they vote against, NoDeal will still happen anyway, because there is no time left for anything else.





It's a no lose position for BJ anyway, if they don't oppose him then he can frame it as a victory where May kept failing. If they do he can campaign on it in a general election.

It's probably quite a clever tactical move on his part.



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:08 PM
link   

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Your're both right, in a sense.
Can we compromise and call it "passive selection"?
It's like a Darwinian process. The elected House of Commons is the environment which determines ("selects") which "mutation" (party) has the best chance of surviving in government.



I like the term passive selection.

I agree there is no formal vote, however the formation of a UK government depends on support within parliament. The idea a UK government is formed other than through parliament is simply wrong.



From gov.uk


The Prime Minister is the leader of Her Majesty’s Government and is ultimately responsible for all policy and decisions. The Prime Minister also:
oversees the operation of the Civil Service and government agencies
appoints members of the government
is the principal government figure in the House of Commons


Parliament does not select the Prime Minister and thus can not possibly select the Govt.

The majority party(s) in Parliament form the Govt. and the minority party(s) in Parliament form the opposition.
The govt and parliament are not the same things.





No one is claiming government and parliament are same thing.

The majority party forming the government means that parliament selects the government. Passively if you prefer, but they still select it.

We vote MPs into parliament, not parties.


These are the people who make up the top tier of our Govt today.
They run the govt and have departments that report into them or attend cabinet meetings.
Please let me know which ones were selected by Parliament.

Boris Johnson MP 2019–present
Dominic Raab MP 2019–present
Sajid Javid MP 2019–present
Priti Patel MP 2019–present
Michael Gove MP 2019–present
Robert Buckland MP 2019–present
Stephen Barclay MP 2018–present
Ben Wallace MP 2019–present
Matt Hancock MP 2018–present
Andrea Leadsom MP 2019–present
Elizabeth Truss MP 2019–present
Amber Rudd MP 2018–present
Gavin Williamson MP 2019–present
Theresa Villiers MP 2019–present
Robert Jenrick MP 2019–present
Grant Shapps MP 2019–present
Julian Smith MP 2019–present
Alister Jack MP 2019–present
Alun Cairns MP 2016–present
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PC 2016–present
Nicky Morgan MP 2019–present
Alok Sharma MP 2019–present
James Cleverly MP 2019–present
Rishi Sunak MP 2019–present
Jacob Rees-Mogg MP 2019–present
Mark Spencer MP 2019–present
Geoffrey Cox QC MP 2018–present
Kwasi Kwarteng MP 2019–present
Oliver Dowden MP 2019–present
Jake Berry MP 2019–present
Esther McVey MP 2019–present
Jo Johnson MP 2019–present
Brandon Lewis MP 2019–present



They are appointed by the prime minister who is only prime minister by commanding a majority in parliament.

If you don't think the government is formed by parliament then who do you think does do it?



Yes they are appointed by the Prime Minister, no selection from parliament at all.
Not a single one of the people in leadership positions in our Govt was selected by Parliament.
The govt and parliament, like I said, are different things. You say you understand that but it's no evident that you do.
The leader of the majority party - selected by the people in an election - is appointed as the Prime Minister by the Queen. Not by Parliament.
A Party can change their leader. If they do the new leader is responsible for selecting the Govt. Not parliament.
The majority party is NOT the Govt. The Govt. is the Prime Minister, his or her cabinet and the people in their departments across the country.
edit on 28/8/2019 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:12 PM
link   
a reply to: DISRAELI

Explanations are all well and good i suppose.

Brexit is in the post now, i think most can see that.

Workable plans, on the other hand, those are still nowhere to be seen.

So 31st or otherwise.

The argument can be made that the price of a hard Brexit may well be the departure of Scotland and Ireland from the UK.

It's not only our place in the EU that's potentially about to change.



edit on 28-8-2019 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:13 PM
link   
Its the Cricket I tell ya....its the cricket wot did it!!!

Bloody fluke beating Orstraya, we fink we own the World again.!!!

Don't worry old Chaps.......Australia is going to put some ropes on the ol Dart, and tow you all down here with us...

So you can be here with all us Poms from the ol days.

Just imagine, eternal sunshine and sunburn......you'll love it here.

Not sure about Ireland though.....should we bring them blighters down too?

Pip pip.....




posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:14 PM
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The CDI's European division is the European People's Party, currently the largest European political party. Its Latin American equivalent is the Christian Democrat Organization of America. The Democratic Party of the United States of America maintains links with CDI through the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs. A youth organization of the CDI is currently being established under the name of Youth of the Centrist Democrat International (YCDI).

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: andy06shake
I think the explanation is that the anti-Trump and anti-Brexit movements are in such sympathy that any argument used by one will work for the other.



Even reading from the same book of policy authored by the CDI


The CDI's European division is the European People's Party, currently the largest European political party. Its Latin American equivalent is the Christian Democrat Organization of America. The Democratic Party of the United States of America maintains links with CDI through the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs. A youth organization of the CDI is currently being established under the name of Youth of the Centrist Democrat International (YCDI).


So you're exactly correct . And to boot , well might the Russian MI dept. be helping to secure us a useful Brexit . One where prosecutions will be order of the day shortly after .



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:15 PM
link   

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Your're both right, in a sense.
Can we compromise and call it "passive selection"?
It's like a Darwinian process. The elected House of Commons is the environment which determines ("selects") which "mutation" (party) has the best chance of surviving in government.



I like the term passive selection.

I agree there is no formal vote, however the formation of a UK government depends on support within parliament. The idea a UK government is formed other than through parliament is simply wrong.



From gov.uk


The Prime Minister is the leader of Her Majesty’s Government and is ultimately responsible for all policy and decisions. The Prime Minister also:
oversees the operation of the Civil Service and government agencies
appoints members of the government
is the principal government figure in the House of Commons


Parliament does not select the Prime Minister and thus can not possibly select the Govt.

The majority party(s) in Parliament form the Govt. and the minority party(s) in Parliament form the opposition.
The govt and parliament are not the same things.





No one is claiming government and parliament are same thing.

The majority party forming the government means that parliament selects the government. Passively if you prefer, but they still select it.

We vote MPs into parliament, not parties.


These are the people who make up the top tier of our Govt today.
They run the govt and have departments that report into them or attend cabinet meetings.
Please let me know which ones were selected by Parliament.

Boris Johnson MP 2019–present
Dominic Raab MP 2019–present
Sajid Javid MP 2019–present
Priti Patel MP 2019–present
Michael Gove MP 2019–present
Robert Buckland MP 2019–present
Stephen Barclay MP 2018–present
Ben Wallace MP 2019–present
Matt Hancock MP 2018–present
Andrea Leadsom MP 2019–present
Elizabeth Truss MP 2019–present
Amber Rudd MP 2018–present
Gavin Williamson MP 2019–present
Theresa Villiers MP 2019–present
Robert Jenrick MP 2019–present
Grant Shapps MP 2019–present
Julian Smith MP 2019–present
Alister Jack MP 2019–present
Alun Cairns MP 2016–present
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PC 2016–present
Nicky Morgan MP 2019–present
Alok Sharma MP 2019–present
James Cleverly MP 2019–present
Rishi Sunak MP 2019–present
Jacob Rees-Mogg MP 2019–present
Mark Spencer MP 2019–present
Geoffrey Cox QC MP 2018–present
Kwasi Kwarteng MP 2019–present
Oliver Dowden MP 2019–present
Jake Berry MP 2019–present
Esther McVey MP 2019–present
Jo Johnson MP 2019–present
Brandon Lewis MP 2019–present



They are appointed by the prime minister who is only prime minister by commanding a majority in parliament.

If you don't think the government is formed by parliament then who do you think does do it?



Yes they are appointed by the Prime Minister, no selection from parliament at all.
The govt and parliament, like I said, are different things. You say you understand that but it's no evident that you do.
The leader of the majority party - selected by the people in an election - is appointed as the Prime Minister by the Queen. Not by Parliament.
A Party can change their leader. If they do the new leader is responsible for selecting the Govt. Not parliament.
The majority party is NOT the Govt. The Govt. is the Prime Minister, his or her cabinet and the people in their departments across the country.


We don't vote for leaders or parties in UK general elections.

A concept you seem to have forgotten since page 7 on this thread when you agreed with it.

MPs select the PM who then forms the government. He can be leader of the largest party but if he can't get support from his own parties MPs then he won't be PM.



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Your're both right, in a sense.
Can we compromise and call it "passive selection"?
It's like a Darwinian process. The elected House of Commons is the environment which determines ("selects") which "mutation" (party) has the best chance of surviving in government.



I like the term passive selection.

I agree there is no formal vote, however the formation of a UK government depends on support within parliament. The idea a UK government is formed other than through parliament is simply wrong.



From gov.uk


The Prime Minister is the leader of Her Majesty’s Government and is ultimately responsible for all policy and decisions. The Prime Minister also:
oversees the operation of the Civil Service and government agencies
appoints members of the government
is the principal government figure in the House of Commons


Parliament does not select the Prime Minister and thus can not possibly select the Govt.

The majority party(s) in Parliament form the Govt. and the minority party(s) in Parliament form the opposition.
The govt and parliament are not the same things.





No one is claiming government and parliament are same thing.

The majority party forming the government means that parliament selects the government. Passively if you prefer, but they still select it.

We vote MPs into parliament, not parties.


These are the people who make up the top tier of our Govt today.
They run the govt and have departments that report into them or attend cabinet meetings.
Please let me know which ones were selected by Parliament.

Boris Johnson MP 2019–present
Dominic Raab MP 2019–present
Sajid Javid MP 2019–present
Priti Patel MP 2019–present
Michael Gove MP 2019–present
Robert Buckland MP 2019–present
Stephen Barclay MP 2018–present
Ben Wallace MP 2019–present
Matt Hancock MP 2018–present
Andrea Leadsom MP 2019–present
Elizabeth Truss MP 2019–present
Amber Rudd MP 2018–present
Gavin Williamson MP 2019–present
Theresa Villiers MP 2019–present
Robert Jenrick MP 2019–present
Grant Shapps MP 2019–present
Julian Smith MP 2019–present
Alister Jack MP 2019–present
Alun Cairns MP 2016–present
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PC 2016–present
Nicky Morgan MP 2019–present
Alok Sharma MP 2019–present
James Cleverly MP 2019–present
Rishi Sunak MP 2019–present
Jacob Rees-Mogg MP 2019–present
Mark Spencer MP 2019–present
Geoffrey Cox QC MP 2018–present
Kwasi Kwarteng MP 2019–present
Oliver Dowden MP 2019–present
Jake Berry MP 2019–present
Esther McVey MP 2019–present
Jo Johnson MP 2019–present
Brandon Lewis MP 2019–present



They are appointed by the prime minister who is only prime minister by commanding a majority in parliament.

If you don't think the government is formed by parliament then who do you think does do it?



Yes they are appointed by the Prime Minister, no selection from parliament at all.
The govt and parliament, like I said, are different things. You say you understand that but it's no evident that you do.
The leader of the majority party - selected by the people in an election - is appointed as the Prime Minister by the Queen. Not by Parliament.
A Party can change their leader. If they do the new leader is responsible for selecting the Govt. Not parliament.
The majority party is NOT the Govt. The Govt. is the Prime Minister, his or her cabinet and the people in their departments across the country.


We don't vote for leaders or parties in UK general elections.

A concept you seem to have forgotten since page 7 on this thread when you agreed with it.

MPs select the PM who then forms the government. He can be leader of the largest party but if he can't get support from his own parties MPs then he won't be PM.








I didn't say we voted for the leader of a party. I said "the leader of the majority party - selected by the people."
The people DO vote for a party as candidates are attached to a party in most cases.
From parliament.uk

The leader of the winning party is appointed as Prime Minister and chooses other party members to work in the Government with them - as Cabinet ministers and junior ministers.


At no time does parliament ever select the govt. The govt, separate to parliament, is selected by the Prime Minister.

Bottom line - you can't name a single member of the current Cabinet or junior ministers, the top tier of our Govt., who were selected by Parliament. Nor is any Prime Minister ever selected by Parliament. A Prime Minister is selected by party in their own leadership contest/decision.

The majority party is selected by the people. Their leader becomes Prime Minister, appointed by the Queen and invited to form a Govt.
If there is no majority, the leader of the party with most votes gets to form a coalition govt and is appointed Prime Minister and invited by the Queen to form a govt.
Parliament play no role in either the selection of a Prime Minister or his/her selection for Govt positions.
They CAN remove a Prime Minister by a vote of no confidence in the Hosue. But if they do that, they have no role in selecting the next Prime Minister.

You were just plain wrong.
edit on 28/8/2019 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:36 PM
link   

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Your're both right, in a sense.
Can we compromise and call it "passive selection"?
It's like a Darwinian process. The elected House of Commons is the environment which determines ("selects") which "mutation" (party) has the best chance of surviving in government.



I like the term passive selection.

I agree there is no formal vote, however the formation of a UK government depends on support within parliament. The idea a UK government is formed other than through parliament is simply wrong.



From gov.uk


The Prime Minister is the leader of Her Majesty’s Government and is ultimately responsible for all policy and decisions. The Prime Minister also:
oversees the operation of the Civil Service and government agencies
appoints members of the government
is the principal government figure in the House of Commons


Parliament does not select the Prime Minister and thus can not possibly select the Govt.

The majority party(s) in Parliament form the Govt. and the minority party(s) in Parliament form the opposition.
The govt and parliament are not the same things.





No one is claiming government and parliament are same thing.

The majority party forming the government means that parliament selects the government. Passively if you prefer, but they still select it.

We vote MPs into parliament, not parties.


These are the people who make up the top tier of our Govt today.
They run the govt and have departments that report into them or attend cabinet meetings.
Please let me know which ones were selected by Parliament.

Boris Johnson MP 2019–present
Dominic Raab MP 2019–present
Sajid Javid MP 2019–present
Priti Patel MP 2019–present
Michael Gove MP 2019–present
Robert Buckland MP 2019–present
Stephen Barclay MP 2018–present
Ben Wallace MP 2019–present
Matt Hancock MP 2018–present
Andrea Leadsom MP 2019–present
Elizabeth Truss MP 2019–present
Amber Rudd MP 2018–present
Gavin Williamson MP 2019–present
Theresa Villiers MP 2019–present
Robert Jenrick MP 2019–present
Grant Shapps MP 2019–present
Julian Smith MP 2019–present
Alister Jack MP 2019–present
Alun Cairns MP 2016–present
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PC 2016–present
Nicky Morgan MP 2019–present
Alok Sharma MP 2019–present
James Cleverly MP 2019–present
Rishi Sunak MP 2019–present
Jacob Rees-Mogg MP 2019–present
Mark Spencer MP 2019–present
Geoffrey Cox QC MP 2018–present
Kwasi Kwarteng MP 2019–present
Oliver Dowden MP 2019–present
Jake Berry MP 2019–present
Esther McVey MP 2019–present
Jo Johnson MP 2019–present
Brandon Lewis MP 2019–present



They are appointed by the prime minister who is only prime minister by commanding a majority in parliament.

If you don't think the government is formed by parliament then who do you think does do it?



Yes they are appointed by the Prime Minister, no selection from parliament at all.
The govt and parliament, like I said, are different things. You say you understand that but it's no evident that you do.
The leader of the majority party - selected by the people in an election - is appointed as the Prime Minister by the Queen. Not by Parliament.
A Party can change their leader. If they do the new leader is responsible for selecting the Govt. Not parliament.
The majority party is NOT the Govt. The Govt. is the Prime Minister, his or her cabinet and the people in their departments across the country.


We don't vote for leaders or parties in UK general elections.

A concept you seem to have forgotten since page 7 on this thread when you agreed with it.

MPs select the PM who then forms the government. He can be leader of the largest party but if he can't get support from his own parties MPs then he won't be PM.








I didn't say we voted for the leader of a party. I said the leader of the majority party - selected by the people.
The people DO vote for a party as candidates are attached to a party in most cases.
From parliament.uk

The leader of the winning party is appointed as Prime Minister and chooses other party members to work in the Government with them - as Cabinet ministers and junior ministers.


At no time does parliament ever select the govt. The govt, separate to parliament, is selected by the Prime Minister.

Bottom line - you can't name a single member of the current Cabinet or junior ministers, the top tier of our Govt., who were selected by Parliament. Nor is any Prime Minister ever selected by Parliament. A Prime Minister is selected by party in their own leadership contest/decision.

The majority party is selected by the people. Their leader becomes Prime Minister, appointed by the Queen and invited to form a Govt.
If there is no majority, the leader of the party with most votes gets to form a coalition govt and is appointed Prime Minister and invited by the Queen to form a govt.
Parliament play no role in either the selection of a Prime Minister or his/her selection for Govt positions.
They CAN remove a Prime Minister by a vote of no confidence in the Hosue. But if they do that, they have no role in selecting the next Prime Minister.


No, We don't vote for a party we vote for an individual. We might base our vote on what party they are in buy once ejected they are free to act on their own discretion.

If a hundred Tory MPs defect to labour then Labour will form the government. Regardless of what party you think you voted for.

ETA there is no requirement that the PM is a party leader.


edit on 28-8-2019 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 28 2019 @ 07:46 PM
link   

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: ScepticScot
Your're both right, in a sense.
Can we compromise and call it "passive selection"?
It's like a Darwinian process. The elected House of Commons is the environment which determines ("selects") which "mutation" (party) has the best chance of surviving in government.



I like the term passive selection.

I agree there is no formal vote, however the formation of a UK government depends on support within parliament. The idea a UK government is formed other than through parliament is simply wrong.



From gov.uk


The Prime Minister is the leader of Her Majesty’s Government and is ultimately responsible for all policy and decisions. The Prime Minister also:
oversees the operation of the Civil Service and government agencies
appoints members of the government
is the principal government figure in the House of Commons


Parliament does not select the Prime Minister and thus can not possibly select the Govt.

The majority party(s) in Parliament form the Govt. and the minority party(s) in Parliament form the opposition.
The govt and parliament are not the same things.





No one is claiming government and parliament are same thing.

The majority party forming the government means that parliament selects the government. Passively if you prefer, but they still select it.

We vote MPs into parliament, not parties.


These are the people who make up the top tier of our Govt today.
They run the govt and have departments that report into them or attend cabinet meetings.
Please let me know which ones were selected by Parliament.

Boris Johnson MP 2019–present
Dominic Raab MP 2019–present
Sajid Javid MP 2019–present
Priti Patel MP 2019–present
Michael Gove MP 2019–present
Robert Buckland MP 2019–present
Stephen Barclay MP 2018–present
Ben Wallace MP 2019–present
Matt Hancock MP 2018–present
Andrea Leadsom MP 2019–present
Elizabeth Truss MP 2019–present
Amber Rudd MP 2018–present
Gavin Williamson MP 2019–present
Theresa Villiers MP 2019–present
Robert Jenrick MP 2019–present
Grant Shapps MP 2019–present
Julian Smith MP 2019–present
Alister Jack MP 2019–present
Alun Cairns MP 2016–present
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park PC 2016–present
Nicky Morgan MP 2019–present
Alok Sharma MP 2019–present
James Cleverly MP 2019–present
Rishi Sunak MP 2019–present
Jacob Rees-Mogg MP 2019–present
Mark Spencer MP 2019–present
Geoffrey Cox QC MP 2018–present
Kwasi Kwarteng MP 2019–present
Oliver Dowden MP 2019–present
Jake Berry MP 2019–present
Esther McVey MP 2019–present
Jo Johnson MP 2019–present
Brandon Lewis MP 2019–present



They are appointed by the prime minister who is only prime minister by commanding a majority in parliament.

If you don't think the government is formed by parliament then who do you think does do it?



Yes they are appointed by the Prime Minister, no selection from parliament at all.
The govt and parliament, like I said, are different things. You say you understand that but it's no evident that you do.
The leader of the majority party - selected by the people in an election - is appointed as the Prime Minister by the Queen. Not by Parliament.
A Party can change their leader. If they do the new leader is responsible for selecting the Govt. Not parliament.
The majority party is NOT the Govt. The Govt. is the Prime Minister, his or her cabinet and the people in their departments across the country.


We don't vote for leaders or parties in UK general elections.

A concept you seem to have forgotten since page 7 on this thread when you agreed with it.

MPs select the PM who then forms the government. He can be leader of the largest party but if he can't get support from his own parties MPs then he won't be PM.








I didn't say we voted for the leader of a party. I said the leader of the majority party - selected by the people.
The people DO vote for a party as candidates are attached to a party in most cases.
From parliament.uk

The leader of the winning party is appointed as Prime Minister and chooses other party members to work in the Government with them - as Cabinet ministers and junior ministers.


At no time does parliament ever select the govt. The govt, separate to parliament, is selected by the Prime Minister.

Bottom line - you can't name a single member of the current Cabinet or junior ministers, the top tier of our Govt., who were selected by Parliament. Nor is any Prime Minister ever selected by Parliament. A Prime Minister is selected by party in their own leadership contest/decision.

The majority party is selected by the people. Their leader becomes Prime Minister, appointed by the Queen and invited to form a Govt.
If there is no majority, the leader of the party with most votes gets to form a coalition govt and is appointed Prime Minister and invited by the Queen to form a govt.
Parliament play no role in either the selection of a Prime Minister or his/her selection for Govt positions.
They CAN remove a Prime Minister by a vote of no confidence in the Hosue. But if they do that, they have no role in selecting the next Prime Minister.


No, We don't vote for a party we vote for an individual. We might base our vote on what party they are in buy once ejected they are free to act on their own discretion.

If a hundred Tory MPs defect to labour then Labour will form the government. Regardless of what party you think you voted for.

ETA there is no requirement that the PM is a party leader.



The leader of the party with the most votes is invited by the Queen to form a Govt and is appointed as Prime Minister.
Parliament play no role in that appointment. So, yes, party matters immensely /exclsuively in who is appointed PM and who gets to form a Govt.
If 100 Tory MP's defected and became Labour, then Labour would be the majority party and their leader would be invited by the Queen (eventually) to form a govt and would be appointed PM. In your scenario Parliament would have no say in who the Labour leader was. That would be up to the Labour Party. It's simply not a parliamentary decision. Following that, parliament would have no say in who the new PM selected to form the new Govt.

People decide who the majority party is based on who they vote for.
The majority party decide who their leader is and who will be PM
The PM forms the Govt.
i.e. Parliament not involved.
edit on 28/8/2019 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



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