Brexit and the Deal We Were Promised.

The other day I wrote a rather lengthy thread explaining the Brexit problem. On the subject of a “no-deal” scenario a member made a point that I have seen several times and is one I wanted to explore further in its own thread. There is a very good argument that is often made that the vote in 2016 to leave the EU was simply to leave the EU with no mention of a deal, that while a deal would be nice, no-deal was never promised so we should just leave and be done with it because that’s what the people voted for without any mention of any kind of a deal. Essentially there was never a promise of a deal so why are we even bothering to try to strike a deal.

Pretty good argument right...if nobody was offering a deal then why should we be expecting one?

Except it is completely untrue and we were always promised a deal!

Let me explain, you see with a little bit of digging it actually becomes very clear that actually the VoteLeave Campaign did very much campaign on the idea that there would be a deal struck with the EU before leaving the block. In fact the VoteLeave campaigns own website makes this very clear stating that

Taking back control is a carful change, not a sudden stop – We will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave

(NOTE: To find this quote see the slide show at the bottom of the linked page and see page 10 entitled “We love Europe – The EU is the problem)

As well as this elsewhere on their website there are other mentions of some kind of a deal. On their page entitled “What Happens When We Vote Leave” they provided information on what the people of the UK could expect after a vote to leave the EU and its very clear from this page that a deal and negotiation with the EU was what they were selling. They were very clear in their campaign documentation that Brexit was being sold to the people of the UK on the basis that after a vote leave outcome a deal would be negotiated. Some highlights form this page include.

Europe yes, EU no. We have a new UK-EU Treaty based on free trade and friendly cooperation. There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it.

Again this is the vision of a leave outcome that VoteLeave where campaigning on and this, has not happened and doesn't look like its going to happen the page goes on to say that....

In particular, we will negotiate a UK-EU Treaty that enables us 1) to continue cooperating in many areas just as now (e.g. maritime surveillance), 2) to deepen cooperation in some areas (e.g. scientific collaborations and counter-terrorism), and 3) to continue free trade with minimal bureaucracy.

Once agin this is a promise that was sold to the British electorate back in 2016 as part of the VoteLeave Campaign. It is very clear that they were seeking Brexit to the people on the understanding that a deal would be negotiated between the UK and EU before the UK leaves the EU and it seems highly unlikely that this will happen before halloween.

Another page of their site states that:

Given the importance of securing a good deal in the national interest and the cross-party nature of the Leave campaign we believe the Government should invite figures from other parties, business, the law and civil society to join the negotiating team.

And it wasn't just their website promising us a deal, speaking less than a month after the vote, David Davis, the Brexit Secretary said this:

Within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU … The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit, but they will be fully negotiated

That didn’t happen.

The point…

The point is this, very often I see this argument that actually no-deal is what the people voted for or that there was no mention of any kind of deal but the truth is when you turn back time to 2016 and read what the VoteLeave official website says it’s very clear the British people were sold Brexit on the idea that a deal would be secured. What was promised, what the promises that the British people based their vote on is not being delivered upon in the event of a no-deal. The will of the British people was based on what the VoteLeave Campaign were selling them; a Brexit with a deal the British people did not vote for a no-deal Brexit, the two are radically different.

Now, I am not trying to change anyone’s mind, I am just wanting to dispel this myth with a factual account of what those who were selling Brexit to the British people actually said. It is very clear that a deal between the UK and EU was expected in the event of a vote leave win. If you are off the opinion that it doesn’t really change your views on Breixt because you didn’t vote based on that, then that’s fine, am not trying to change your opinion only inform the debate with a factual account of what was actually promised.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Starred for due diligence, but not sure anyone will be too interested.

How not to do a deal is what this should be called for the rest of history.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Could you remind us of what was on the ballot for that?
Thanks

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Could you remind us of what was on the ballot for that?
Thanks

How do you mean?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin
What was on the ballot.
leave or no leave?
leave with a deal ?

you know, the actual ballot as it is kind of important

if it wasn't on the ballot how would one expect it?

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin
What was on the ballot.
leave or no leave?
leave with a deal ?

you know, the actual ballot as it is kind of important

if it wasn't on the ballot how would one expect it?

When you go to put your cross in the box for a political party you don't get a full manifesto attached to your ballot paper, the expectation is that you as a voter know who you are voting for and what the implications of that vote could be based on the promises of whoever you are voting for. Brexit is much the same in that sense, we knew that if we voted to remain then it would trigger Camerons new deal with the EU, just like if we left one of the things that was expected was a negotiation for a new deal. Democracy works best when the electorate are informed in my opinion, now am fairly confident that not everyone who voted to leave was checking out exactly what was being promised in the event of a vote leave but the promise remains. Just because it was not explicitly stated on the ballot doesn't change what VoteLeave where campaigning on and promising.

I also think that the vote to leave was very vague there are several ways you could potentially leave the EU and the future relationship could take several forms while not being a full EU member and I think that also adds to the complexity of this issue. Brexit could mean leaving the EU as a full member but remaining a part of the ECC for example although most Brexiteers wouldn't approve of that its one interpretation of Brexit.

To use another example when the Irish went to vote on the Lisbon treaty their ballot paper didn't come with a copy of the treaty attached, when Scottish devolution was voted on the paper didn't come with a full list of what powers would be dissolved and how the system of parliament would work. I could go on but you get the idea.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin
What was on the ballot.
leave or no leave?
leave with a deal ?

you know, the actual ballot as it is kind of important

if it wasn't on the ballot how would one expect it?

When you go to put your cross in the box for a political party you don't get a full manifesto attached to your ballot paper, the expectation is that you as a voter know who you are voting......

blah blah blah. You are avoiding the question. WHAT DID THE BALLOT MEASURE SAY? That is what was asked.

originally posted by: schuyler

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin
What was on the ballot.
leave or no leave?
leave with a deal ?

you know, the actual ballot as it is kind of important

if it wasn't on the ballot how would one expect it?

When you go to put your cross in the box for a political party you don't get a full manifesto attached to your ballot paper, the expectation is that you as a voter know who you are voting......

blah blah blah. You are avoiding the question. WHAT DID THE BALLOT MEASURE SAY? That is what was asked.

I am going to assume you mean ballot "Paper"....

and am honestly not avoiding the question I just assumed the member I was addressing and others knew what the ballot actually said. The member I was addressing did say "if it [a deal] was not on the ballot how would one expect it", I was directly replying to this question.

But since I clearly overestimated your knowledge on this subject, this is the ballot.



There you go.

My point however stands regarding the fact that a deal was actually what was promised.

I guess you should have thought about all this before you had a Brenter. It all sounds like a messy divorce to me.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin


Ummm...NOOOOO...there is no deal implied in that initiative...

your one hundred percent incorrect and have destroyed your own OP and argument...


Thank you for playing...







YouSir

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Here in my part of the US, when we have a ballot question, there is usually a section (sometimes quite lengthy) that describes exactly what the question being asked is about and its ramifications with a very brief summary describing what a Yes or No vote's consequences will be.

I believe that is why the question of what exactly was on the ballot was asked as it would be pertinent to the question of if a deal was part of the vote or not.

Here's a link to a sample ballot showing what I am talking about Link

a reply to: YouSir

it is very clear on the VoteLeave website that they are saying a deal would be negotiated they even say a new UK/EU treaty would be in place by May 2020.

I don't quite get how you can read the OP and not get that?

originally posted by: BomSquad
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Here in my part of the US, when we have a ballot question, there is usually a section (sometimes quite lengthy) that describes exactly what the question being asked is about and its ramifications with a very brief summary describing what a Yes or No vote's consequences will be.

I believe that is why the question of what exactly was on the ballot was asked as it would be pertinent to the question of if a deal was part of the vote or not.

As I said in another post, the Irish referendum didn't come with a copy of the Lisbon treaty nor did the Scottish devolution ballot come with a list of devolved powers.

Also if you read the OP it is very clear, VoteLeave, the guys leading the campaign to leave the EU promised a deal would be negotiated before we left.

The ballot is inconsequential.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
My point however stands regarding the fact that a deal was actually what was promised.

Flawed argument. What was promised is not necessarily what people voted on. They vote on what's on the ballot, not written on the tenth page of some website.

In any case, the former Prime Minister did a terrible job negotiating with the EU. Parliament made the right call voting it down.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Different countries with different systems. I was only trying to clarify why the question was being asked.

Personally, I prefer to have the additional information on the ballot itself as it tells you more fully what you are voting for and leads to less confusion.

It appears that that point of view isn't universal and things are done differently in your neck of the woods. As long as it works for you and your countrymen, who am I to judge?

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

First off I am one of those the most against American conservative propaganda on ATS.. just for context..


I do not see how what people campaigned on is relevant...


People campaign on countless things.. quotes can be taken countless ways...


The only thing relevant legally is the wording of the vote..

If it was simply worded “leave or don’t leave”.. that is that, legally..


Now that doesn’t mean common sense can’t prevail and they hold another vote asking “leave without a deal or wait for a deal??”



Quotes only matter politically.

a reply to: mightmight

Flawed argument. What was promised is not necessarily what people voted on. They vote on what's on the ballot, not written on the tenth page of some website.

This argument actually makes no sense, its being used so that some can carry on with the line "No deal was offered so that means we should leave with no-deal"

Lets settle it answer me this:

Where the details of the Lisbon Treaty on the Irish ballot or where the specific powers to be devolved to the Scottish parliament on the 1997 Scottish referendum or did the 2011 AV referendum specifically state what alternative voting system would be used?

The answer to all of the above is no.

In all of these cases the votes where cast with the electorate being expected to know what they were voting for.

Tell me then why is the 2016 referendum any different.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Yea campaign promises are irrelevant, only the wording of the bill matters.

a reply to: JustJohnny

The only thing relevant legally is the wording of the vote..

If it was simply worded “leave or don’t leave”.. that is that, legally..

It was an advisory vote, it was not legally binding.