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Your Opinion: Separation of Church and State

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posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 02:36 PM
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I've a question for y'all...

How important is the separation of Church and State?

It's the the First Right in the Bill of Rights.

It's one thing to let your religious beliefs (and I define that very broadly) inform your personal decision making and quite another to try to legislate your (or your groups) beliefs.

How do you keep Church and State separate?

Does is concern you that this line is being crossed by both Church and State, mostly for reasons of power and control, not to mention money.

It is a, the actually, fundamental American value and no one is talking about it.

What say you?




posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 02:48 PM
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China has outlawed religion. In Muslim countries, Christianity is banned. Prison or death is the punishment. This is why it’s important to have the first amendment.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 02:49 PM
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We have freedom of religion here in America, leave it at that. That is good. Those who do not want some irate religions taking over are protected, the cops cannot arrest them for not going to church.

I do not believe we need to change our pledge of allegiance or start removing religious style statues and writings from our government building or remove in god we trust from the money, but I like having the freedom not to have our government forcing one religion on the people like in the Muslim countries.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

I think we need to define and refine our terms with an understanding of the underlying principles. The separation of church and state is intended to prevent the state -- government -- from dictating our religion and the free expression thereof, and from using the power and resources of the state -- government -- from promoting any one religion over another religion. It is the means to protect and promote freedom of religion... not freedom from religion.

Likewise, the state -- government -- cannot promote any specific denomination of any religion over another, such as our Protestant Christian founding fathers and their forebears faced with the Catholic Inquisitions and persecutions in Europe.

Our right to freedom of religion is an enumerated Constitutional right, but our rights are not limited or defined by the Constitution. We have a separation of church and state in order that the government (state) cannot and does not dictate our religious beliefs, based upon an inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves.

That same inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves applies to freedom of conscience in general, not simply a faith-based belief. Everyone's right to freedom of conscience should be equally protected.

So any and all government actions/regulations/laws must operate within those parameters.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:00 PM
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originally posted by: FyreByrd
I've a question for y'all...

How important is the separation of Church and State?

It's the the First Right in the Bill of Rights.

It's one thing to let your religious beliefs (and I define that very broadly) inform your personal decision making and quite another to try to legislate your (or your groups) beliefs.

How do you keep Church and State separate?





Does is concern you that this line is being crossed by both Church and State, mostly for reasons of power and control, not to mention money.

It is a, the actually, fundamental American value and no one is talking about it.

What say you?




Seems to me that 1st amendment guarantees, we the people , the freedom to choose a religion ....the government cannot force us to follow a mandated State religion. The separation of church and state is simply that.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:01 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

We have the church of public education today feeding our children the religion of humanism.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:02 PM
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In the United States we have freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. I think that gets lost on many people.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:05 PM
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There is NO separation of Church and State in the United States Constitution.
That was from a letter by Thomas Jefferson
Denying ignorance
Why ?
Folks forget history and read stuff into something that does not exist.

edit on 8/17/19 by Gothmog because: spelling



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:06 PM
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originally posted by: rickymouse
We have freedom of religion here in America, leave it at that. That is good. Those who do not want some irate religions taking over are protected, the cops cannot arrest them for not going to church.

I do not believe we need to change our pledge of allegiance or start removing religious style statues and writings from our government building or remove in god we trust from the money, but I like having the freedom not to have our government forcing one religion on the people like in the Muslim countries.


Even though both the items you cite (Pledge and In God...) were new additions to American life (anti-communist)?



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:07 PM
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Churches should be burned. We don't need any more stone age philosophy.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:07 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

I'd say the separation is extremely important and Christopher Hitchens raised some important points about it when he gave a talk at Google a few years ago.

Vid


Also can't help feeling Robert Heinlein got it spot on in this statement.



Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.

Robert A. Heinlein


Cheers.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:08 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd


There is no separation of church and state.
The first amendment only states that people can worship freely and that the government cannot force the people into a religion.

Religion influences elected officials and that will not likely change.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:09 PM
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originally posted by: Lucky109
Churches should be burned. We don't need any more stone age philosophy.



Now that is a first amendment violation and a felony.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:10 PM
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originally posted by: Metallicus
In the United States we have freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. I think that gets lost on many people.


Actually we dont have freedom of religion ask the Mormons who had to drop the multi wife tenant of their religion to become the state of Utah. Tell the native Americans who had to drop their religious practice of shamanism because the government said so. So there really is no freedom of practicing a religion that is different from what the government says is a religion.
edit on 17-8-2019 by PhilbertDezineck because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:12 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: FyreByrd

I think we need to define and refine our terms with an understanding of the underlying principles. The separation of church and state is intended to prevent the state -- government -- from dictating our religion and the free expression thereof, and from using the power and resources of the state -- government -- from promoting any one religion over another religion. It is the means to protect and promote freedom of religion... not freedom from religion.

Likewise, the state -- government -- cannot promote any specific denomination of any religion over another, such as our Protestant Christian founding fathers and their forebears faced with the Catholic Inquisitions and persecutions in Europe.

Our right to freedom of religion is an enumerated Constitutional right, but our rights are not limited or defined by the Constitution. We have a separation of church and state in order that the government (state) cannot and does not dictate our religious beliefs, based upon an inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves.

That same inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves applies to freedom of conscience in general, not simply a faith-based belief. Everyone's right to freedom of conscience should be equally protected.

So any and all government actions/regulations/laws must operate within those parameters.


I don't quite follow.

I agree the State cannot dictate any 'religious standards' but does that not also include that Churches (loosely defined) cannot dictate any standard on the State.

In practise, the State should not make religious Statements (i.e. 10 commandments in government buildings and offices) nor should Churches preach (openly or not) political ideologies.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:12 PM
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originally posted by: karl 12
a reply to: FyreByrd

I'd say the separation is extremely important and Christopher Hitchens raised some important points about it when he gave a talk at Google a few years ago.

Vid


Also can't help feeling Robert Heinlein got it spot on in this statement.



Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.

Robert A. Heinlein


Cheers.


Nice quote.



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:16 PM
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originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: rickymouse
We have freedom of religion here in America, leave it at that. That is good. Those who do not want some irate religions taking over are protected, the cops cannot arrest them for not going to church.

I do not believe we need to change our pledge of allegiance or start removing religious style statues and writings from our government building or remove in god we trust from the money, but I like having the freedom not to have our government forcing one religion on the people like in the Muslim countries.


Even though both the items you cite (Pledge and In God...) were new additions to American life (anti-communist)?

What ?
New additions ?
What do you consider new ?



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:20 PM
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originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: FyreByrd

I think we need to define and refine our terms with an understanding of the underlying principles. The separation of church and state is intended to prevent the state -- government -- from dictating our religion and the free expression thereof, and from using the power and resources of the state -- government -- from promoting any one religion over another religion. It is the means to protect and promote freedom of religion... not freedom from religion.

Likewise, the state -- government -- cannot promote any specific denomination of any religion over another, such as our Protestant Christian founding fathers and their forebears faced with the Catholic Inquisitions and persecutions in Europe.

Our right to freedom of religion is an enumerated Constitutional right, but our rights are not limited or defined by the Constitution. We have a separation of church and state in order that the government (state) cannot and does not dictate our religious beliefs, based upon an inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves.

That same inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves applies to freedom of conscience in general, not simply a faith-based belief. Everyone's right to freedom of conscience should be equally protected.

So any and all government actions/regulations/laws must operate within those parameters.


I don't quite follow.

I agree the State cannot dictate any 'religious standards' but does that not also include that Churches (loosely defined) cannot dictate any standard on the State.

In practise, the State should not make religious Statements (i.e. 10 commandments in government buildings and offices) nor should Churches preach (openly or not) political ideologies.

The law of the land is based on the "Law of Moses"



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:26 PM
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originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: FyreByrd


There is no separation of church and state.
The first amendment only states that people can worship freely and that the government cannot force the people into a religion.

Religion influences elected officials and that will not likely change.


Actually it says:


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,

or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.


nccs.net...

Hence, much of the 'interpretation' is traditional.


"Separation of church and state" is a common metaphor that is well recognized.

Equally well recognized is the metaphorical meaning of the church staying out of the state's business and the state staying out of the church's business.

Because of the very common usage of the "separation of church and state phrase," most people incorrectly think the phrase is in the constitution.

The phrase "wall of separation between the church and the state" was originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802.

His purpose in this letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them.

The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.


www.allabouthistory.org...

I don't care for this site. But as noted in an earlier post about the Pledge of Allegiance and "In God we Trust" it is tradition that guides us.

And it was the inclusion of religious language to our State functions that has caused the backlash to Religious influence on the State.

That's why Im asking the question.

Clearly the Bill of Rights says that the State can't interfere with the Church.

But should the Church be able to interfere in State matters.

I recall a biblical passage....

Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."



posted on Aug, 17 2019 @ 03:31 PM
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I'm going to quote of all people Barry Goldwater.


Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

Barry Goldwater


Link

Today's Republican party makes Barry Goldwater look like a communist.



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