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originally posted by: FyreByrd
I've a question for y'all...
How important is the separation of Church and State?
It's the the First Right in the Bill of Rights.
It's one thing to let your religious beliefs (and I define that very broadly) inform your personal decision making and quite another to try to legislate your (or your groups) beliefs.
How do you keep Church and State separate?
Does is concern you that this line is being crossed by both Church and State, mostly for reasons of power and control, not to mention money.
It is a, the actually, fundamental American value and no one is talking about it.
What say you?
originally posted by: rickymouse
We have freedom of religion here in America, leave it at that. That is good. Those who do not want some irate religions taking over are protected, the cops cannot arrest them for not going to church.
I do not believe we need to change our pledge of allegiance or start removing religious style statues and writings from our government building or remove in god we trust from the money, but I like having the freedom not to have our government forcing one religion on the people like in the Muslim countries.
Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Robert A. Heinlein
originally posted by: Metallicus
In the United States we have freedom OF religion not freedom FROM religion. I think that gets lost on many people.
originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: FyreByrd
I think we need to define and refine our terms with an understanding of the underlying principles. The separation of church and state is intended to prevent the state -- government -- from dictating our religion and the free expression thereof, and from using the power and resources of the state -- government -- from promoting any one religion over another religion. It is the means to protect and promote freedom of religion... not freedom from religion.
Likewise, the state -- government -- cannot promote any specific denomination of any religion over another, such as our Protestant Christian founding fathers and their forebears faced with the Catholic Inquisitions and persecutions in Europe.
Our right to freedom of religion is an enumerated Constitutional right, but our rights are not limited or defined by the Constitution. We have a separation of church and state in order that the government (state) cannot and does not dictate our religious beliefs, based upon an inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves.
That same inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves applies to freedom of conscience in general, not simply a faith-based belief. Everyone's right to freedom of conscience should be equally protected.
So any and all government actions/regulations/laws must operate within those parameters.
originally posted by: karl 12
a reply to: FyreByrd
I'd say the separation is extremely important and Christopher Hitchens raised some important points about it when he gave a talk at Google a few years ago.
Vid
Also can't help feeling Robert Heinlein got it spot on in this statement.
Almost any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
Robert A. Heinlein
Cheers.
originally posted by: FyreByrd
originally posted by: rickymouse
We have freedom of religion here in America, leave it at that. That is good. Those who do not want some irate religions taking over are protected, the cops cannot arrest them for not going to church.
I do not believe we need to change our pledge of allegiance or start removing religious style statues and writings from our government building or remove in god we trust from the money, but I like having the freedom not to have our government forcing one religion on the people like in the Muslim countries.
Even though both the items you cite (Pledge and In God...) were new additions to American life (anti-communist)?
originally posted by: FyreByrd
originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: FyreByrd
I think we need to define and refine our terms with an understanding of the underlying principles. The separation of church and state is intended to prevent the state -- government -- from dictating our religion and the free expression thereof, and from using the power and resources of the state -- government -- from promoting any one religion over another religion. It is the means to protect and promote freedom of religion... not freedom from religion.
Likewise, the state -- government -- cannot promote any specific denomination of any religion over another, such as our Protestant Christian founding fathers and their forebears faced with the Catholic Inquisitions and persecutions in Europe.
Our right to freedom of religion is an enumerated Constitutional right, but our rights are not limited or defined by the Constitution. We have a separation of church and state in order that the government (state) cannot and does not dictate our religious beliefs, based upon an inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves.
That same inalienable and absolute Natural right to think, reason and act for ourselves applies to freedom of conscience in general, not simply a faith-based belief. Everyone's right to freedom of conscience should be equally protected.
So any and all government actions/regulations/laws must operate within those parameters.
I don't quite follow.
I agree the State cannot dictate any 'religious standards' but does that not also include that Churches (loosely defined) cannot dictate any standard on the State.
In practise, the State should not make religious Statements (i.e. 10 commandments in government buildings and offices) nor should Churches preach (openly or not) political ideologies.
originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: FyreByrd
There is no separation of church and state.
The first amendment only states that people can worship freely and that the government cannot force the people into a religion.
Religion influences elected officials and that will not likely change.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,
or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
"Separation of church and state" is a common metaphor that is well recognized.
Equally well recognized is the metaphorical meaning of the church staying out of the state's business and the state staying out of the church's business.
Because of the very common usage of the "separation of church and state phrase," most people incorrectly think the phrase is in the constitution.
The phrase "wall of separation between the church and the state" was originally coined by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists on January 1, 1802.
His purpose in this letter was to assuage the fears of the Danbury, Connecticut Baptists, and so he told them that this wall had been erected to protect them.
The metaphor was used exclusively to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business.
Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.
Barry Goldwater