Flatland And The Interdimensionals

originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck
Higher dimensions, lower dimensions, why put human descriptors in the mix when it is uncalled for.
The entities are extra dimensional and from a different reality but your wrong. It does exist here and now. Or if you want you find that you can't prove that just as I can't prove the other.
The Skinwalker phenomena, with the arrival of animals not of our dimension, proves the "other" dimension has the same properties as ours but with different flora and fauna.
All of our "strange" inaccuracies (UFOS, ghosts, big foot, dogmen, Skinwalker, animal and human mutilations, human abductions etc) can all be explained with a parallel dimension.
Now the ONLY way to prove this is to acquire the method of how to access this other existence, as it's quite obvious that "they" already know how to manipulate it to Their advantage.

Just as a shadow is a 2 dimensional representation of a 3 dimensional object...the 3 dimensional existence is the shadow of the 4 dimensional existence...it's that different but yet alike enough that "as above, so below" applies.

And yes it does exist here and now. Our 3 dimensional existence and a 4 (or perhaps 5) dimensional existence would occupy the same space...they would be aware of us but we would not be aware of them.

I just had 2 thoughts intersect in an interesting collision. I assume many of you are familiar with a tesseract, the geometric representation of a 4D cube.

The thought occured to me, what if THE or A brain is like a tesseract? If we just look at the processing capabiliy and its absolute inherent role in even allowing any of us to percieve space and time, even when we have know for a thousand years that space and time arent real the way we pretend they are. The aggregation of all our known and unknown senses into 1 coherent experience, the only projections outside that brain seeming to be our thoughts and actions. As if reality only exists inside each of our brains' realm yet somehow manifests as a shared space and time we can all hang out in.

Maybe the entire brain doesnt even need to be 4 dimensional, maybe its just a part, sort of like a 4D antenna. Maybe only some brains have them, and those few somehow boost a signal to everyone else.

I wonder if a 4d object would be heavier in 3 dimensions than something with the "same" 3 dimensional mass. Like 2 identical cubes but 1 was a non hypothetical tesseract, would they weigh the same? Like could you monotonously disect small parts of brain with equal mass and find discrepency?

originally posted by: sputniksteve
I just had 2 thoughts intersect in an interesting collision. I assume many of you are familiar with a tesseract, the geometric representation of a 4D cube.

The thought occured to me, what if THE or A brain is like a tesseract? If we just look at the processing capabiliy and its absolute inherent role in even allowing any of us to percieve space and time, even when we have know for a thousand years that space and time arent real the way we pretend they are. The aggregation of all our known and unknown senses into 1 coherent experience, the only projections outside that brain seeming to be our thoughts and actions. As if reality only exists inside each of our brains' realm yet somehow manifests as a shared space and time we can all hang out in.

Maybe the entire brain doesnt even need to be 4 dimensional, maybe its just a part, sort of like a 4D antenna. Maybe only some brains have them, and those few somehow boost a signal to everyone else.

I wonder if a 4d object would be heavier in 3 dimensions than something with the "same" 3 dimensional mass. Like 2 identical cubes but 1 was a non hypothetical tesseract, would they weigh the same? Like could you monotonously disect small parts of brain with equal mass and find discrepency?

Well, how about this then?
The mind (or consciousness) exists outside the brain with the brain being the receiver/transmitter that we use to access the mind. The mind exists in the 4 dimensional existence along with our higher self....our 4 dimensional self.
You see our 3 dimensional existence exists within the 4 dimensional existence....they occupy the same space.
However the 4 dimensional existence is much more complex, just as a 4 dimensional tesseract is more complex than a 3 dimensional cube.
And I doubt that complex life can exist at less than 3 dimensions.
As above, so below.

I, too

originally posted by: TheMadTitan
a reply to: MissSmartypants

I think we have much more power than we realise. I think we are multidimensional in both senses of the word, we exist in lower and higher dimensions (2D and 4D and beyond) and also infinite lateral dimensions (parallel universes). Infinite versions of you for every choice you make or will ever make.

I think the power we aren't aware of is the ability to shape our reality as we see fit and our consciousness leaps through these realities according to our thoughts. How often do you think of a song and it pops on the radio or you're thinking of someone and they call you or that movie you watched as a kid you can't remember the name of and it's aired on TV? Sure, it can be chalked up to coincidence but it happens so often, for me at least, since I was a child that it can't be just coincidence.

People say to think positive thoughts to draw positivity to you and it does work, just in a sense we can't fully understand or describe with science because we lack the 'tools' necessary to understand, just as the flatlanders 2D science cannot explain 3D phenomena. Everything paranormal whether that be ghosts, spirits, demons, monsters etc could all be very real but exist in an alternate dimension and by some freak occurrence these dimensions overlap.

Cool thread!!

I, too, believe that we humans are vastly more powerful than we realize - especially when operating collectively toward a common goal.
Also, I believe that there are those in positions of power and/or influence who know this as well and have, throughout our history, strove to manipulate this resource if not outright control it to their own ends.
At the very least, there is a concerted effort to prevent us from realizing, and thus utilizing, our full potential.

originally posted by: ChayOphan
I, too

originally posted by: TheMadTitan
a reply to: MissSmartypants

I think we have much more power than we realise. I think we are multidimensional in both senses of the word, we exist in lower and higher dimensions (2D and 4D and beyond) and also infinite lateral dimensions (parallel universes). Infinite versions of you for every choice you make or will ever make.

I think the power we aren't aware of is the ability to shape our reality as we see fit and our consciousness leaps through these realities according to our thoughts. How often do you think of a song and it pops on the radio or you're thinking of someone and they call you or that movie you watched as a kid you can't remember the name of and it's aired on TV? Sure, it can be chalked up to coincidence but it happens so often, for me at least, since I was a child that it can't be just coincidence.

People say to think positive thoughts to draw positivity to you and it does work, just in a sense we can't fully understand or describe with science because we lack the 'tools' necessary to understand, just as the flatlanders 2D science cannot explain 3D phenomena. Everything paranormal whether that be ghosts, spirits, demons, monsters etc could all be very real but exist in an alternate dimension and by some freak occurrence these dimensions overlap.

Cool thread!!

I, too, believe that we humans are vastly more powerful than we realize - especially when operating collectively toward a common goal.
Also, I believe that there are those in positions of power and/or influence who know this as well and have, throughout our history, strove to manipulate this resource if not outright control it to their own ends.
At the very least, there is a concerted effort to prevent us from realizing, and thus utilizing, our full potential.

Yes, and as I see the world change it seems more and more obvious that these changes have been orchestrated towards the goal of lowering our potential as humans.

If you postulate an extra spatial dimension, you also have to explain why our physical laws are not affected by it, are constrained to our spacetime.

Gravity, electromagnetism, nuclear forces would look quite different with an extra dimension. The equations we derived from observations and experiments tell us mathematically that there are three spatial dimensions.

You would also have to come up with some additional forces, we've yet to observe, that would allow interaction with that higher dimensional space.

To me the extra/inter/etc dimensional angle in UFOlogy is a simplistic attempt to create a gap to hide the alien, very much like the religions are hiding their gods in a special unreachable space, a heaven.

But I am a boring person who believes that there is a natural explanation for real UFOs. It is just incredibly hard to look for, as it is being drowned in the noise created by UFOtainment.

My basic point, one that very few seem to understand, is that dimensions are measurements used to describe this reality, the one we are in right now. I don't care what system of measure you use, it is simply a way to describe things that actually exist.

Dimensions are abstract concepts of the human mind that describe the space and time occupied by real things. Nothing can exist exclusively in a subset of these "extra dimensions" without existing in all the dimensions at once. I don't care how many dimensions are added to the list, they are measuring something, a quality or characteristic of this reality not some other one.

Because we are real, we occupy space/time and every other dimension used to describe reality, therefore we are omni-dimensional beings, not prisoners of 3-D land. Existence is absolute, either something exists in reality or it doesn't exist, it is real or it isn't real. You can't measure something outside of reality that isn't real, it would have no dimensions to measure.

originally posted by: Ectoplasm8
Yes, Carl Sagan's discussion and visual example on Cosmos:
...

I think interdimensional aliens is the weaker of the arguments for those that believe (of which I'm not) we're being visited.

Sagan also said this:

"Perhaps the sharpest distinction between science and pseudoscience is that science has a far keener appreciation of human imperfections and fallibility than does pseudoscience." (Sagan, 1996)

For reasons mentioned by moebius, the attempt to explain UFOs via an interdimensional hypothesis seem largely pseudoscientific. Human perceptions are far more flawed than the average person would like to admit, but there are also phenomena that are not well understood, that may cause some people to consider an interdimensional hypothesis to explain how the UFO could just vanish, like this one did:

www.nicap.org...
""They asked us to describe what we were seeing, and told us that they had an F-94 on patrol and would vector him toward us. (The F-94 was a radar-equipped two-seat fighter.) A little later Goose Bay asked us to change frequency and talk direct to the fighter. On doing so we learned that he had us in radar contact-no mention of anything else visible. I gave him a bearing of the objects from us, and as I did so I noticed that the small objects had disappeared. (My navigator who was watching them closely at this time said that they appeared to converge on, and enter, the large one.)

As the F-94 approached, the large object dwindled in size, still on the same relative bearing as the Stratocruiser, and after a few seconds disappeared."

So how can a UFO just disappear like that if it's not interdimensional? There are many much more scientifically sound ideas than the interdimensional hypothosis, which don't contradict observations, some of which are linked here:

www.caelestia.be...

Also consider the lack of radar confirmation. The F-94 radar could detect the BOAC flight seeing the UFO, but it could not any UFO where the crew said they saw the UFO. Some of the proposed explanations handle that without any interdimensional hypothesis.

originally posted by: moebius
If you postulate an extra spatial dimension, you also have to explain why our physical laws are not affected by it, are constrained to our spacetime.

Gravity, electromagnetism, nuclear forces would look quite different with an extra dimension. The equations we derived from observations and experiments tell us mathematically that there are three spatial dimensions.

Agreed, and I suspect implied on your statement is the context of this thread, of the extra dimensions being a possible explanation of UFOs or UFO sightings.

But if we go beyond the context of this thread, there is actually a scientific realm where extra dimensions are postulated. The catch is, they would have to be really, really small to not show up in our observations, and so wouldn't make a very good hypothesis to explain UFOs.

How small? Well they would have to be too small to observe since we haven't been able to observe them yet, so along the lines of the Planck scale extra dimensions could certainly exist and be undetected so far, but that's almost incomprehensibly small.

So what about larger extra dimensions? There is actually a hypothesis for those, and a search for them, discussed in this Wikipedia article:

Large extra dimension

But before anybody gets too excited and thinks maybe the interdimension hypothesis for UFOs may be science instead of pseudoscience after all, "large" in the context of those searches does not mean UFO-sized, it means "large" relative to the Planck scale. Even a proton could be considered large relative to that, so even the large extra dimensions scientists are looking for are smaller than a millionth of a meter.

So unless the UFOs are smaller than a millionth of a meter, I have yet to see any valid hypothesis for how extra dimensions could be involved and not contradict observations suggesting there aren't extra dimensions larger than a millionth of a meter. Even the scientific searches for extra dimensions smaller than a millionth of a meter have yet to find any evidence for them.

So the interdimensionals seems to me like maybe a fantasy thought experiment, but not very plausible from a scientific perspective, unless someone has a scientific viewpoint or hypothesis I've never seen yet.

I think if you look at each sighting on a case by case basis, such as the BOAC case for example, you can come up with much more scientifically plausible explanations than an interdimensional hypothesis.

originally posted by: moebius
If you postulate an extra spatial dimension, you also have to explain why our physical laws are not affected by it, are constrained to our spacetime.

Gravity, electromagnetism, nuclear forces would look quite different with an extra dimension. The equations we derived from observations and experiments tell us mathematically that there are three spatial dimensions.

You would also have to come up with some additional forces, we've yet to observe, that would allow interaction with that higher dimensional space.

To me the extra/inter/etc dimensional angle in UFOlogy is a simplistic attempt to create a gap to hide the alien, very much like the religions are hiding their gods in a special unreachable space, a heaven.

But I am a boring person who believes that there is a natural explanation for real UFOs. It is just incredibly hard to look for, as it is being drowned in the noise created by UFOtainment.

Physicists have already stated that mathematics show that there could be as many as 11 dimensions...not just the 3 we can perceive. They'v even come up with mathematical representations of what some common 3 d shapes would look like in the 4 d realm....the tesseract for example. Flatland is a common representation used to explain a 2d existence. I didn't come up with all that, I got it from current physics. I just added occupants to a 4 d world.

originally posted by: MichiganSwampBuck
My basic point, one that very few seem to understand, is that dimensions are measurements used to describe this reality, the one we are in right now. I don't care what system of measure you use, it is simply a way to describe things that actually exist.

Dimensions are abstract concepts of the human mind that describe the space and time occupied by real things. Nothing can exist exclusively in a subset of these "extra dimensions" without existing in all the dimensions at once. I don't care how many dimensions are added to the list, they are measuring something, a quality or characteristic of this reality not some other one.

Because we are real, we occupy space/time and every other dimension used to describe reality, therefore we are omni-dimensional beings, not prisoners of 3-D land. Existence is absolute, either something exists in reality or it doesn't exist, it is real or it isn't real. You can't measure something outside of reality that isn't real, it would have no dimensions to measure.

Well, where's the fun in that?

a reply to: Arbitrageur

Are you thrn arguing that no other dimensions exist outside of the 4 we commonly reference? That seems short sighted.

originally posted by: sputniksteve
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Are you thrn arguing that no other dimensions exist outside of the 4 we commonly reference? That seems short sighted.

Let me try to clear this up. The 11 postulated dimensions are based on mathematical formulas in an effort to reconcile previous postulations in quantum physics. We do not have any instruments that have measured or confirmed any of these dimensions.
And I find it rather presumptuous by the scientific community to believe that our 3 dimensional math and instruments would be able to correctly or completely reveal the complexity of this phenomenon.

a reply to: MissSmartypants

I fully understand, I am just curious if Arb knows better than the theorists or if I am misunderatanding. It seems short sighted to me to make such an absolute statement.

originally posted by: sputniksteve
a reply to: MissSmartypants

I fully understand, I am just curious if Arb knows better than the theorists or if I am misunderatanding. It seems short sighted to me to make such an absolute statement.

Up until recently the speed of light was a absolute constant but now they know it varies in different parts of the universe.

a reply to: MissSmartypants

Different materials also affect the speed that light passes through them. Similar to how different mediums affect speed of sound, like air and water as an example. Some materials can significantly slow the speed of light and are used in fiber optic circuits.

originally posted by: kwakakev
a reply to: MissSmartypants

Different materials also affect the speed that light passes through them. Similar to how different mediums affect speed of sound, like air and water as an example. Some materials can significantly slow the speed of light and are used in fiber optic circuits.

And there are cameras that are fast enough to photograph this slowed down light. Interesting times.

a reply to: MissSmartypants
was this posted already? This guy stole your idea decades ago

a reply to: Oleandra88

We are getting there!!!

Not a tesseract,
a tetrahedron, with a gravity point that's where the 4th dimension intersect with our reality.

The tesseract is energetically speaking less effective than the tetrahedron.
the universe is based on efficiency, it's about the information exchange between all the points, the diagonally opposed points will always have a longer time to send and receive information from each other than with the other 3 points.
a tesseract also lacks the property of fracturing light, which is essential to the colorfull and vibrant experience we have.

Sincerely No Clue

originally posted by: MissSmartypants

originally posted by: sputniksteve
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Are you thrn arguing that no other dimensions exist outside of the 4 we commonly reference? That seems short sighted.

Let me try to clear this up. The 11 postulated dimensions are based on mathematical formulas in an effort to reconcile previous postulations in quantum physics. We do not have any instruments that have measured or confirmed any of these dimensions.

Yes, but again as I already explained, the extra dimensions you're talking about would be so tiny that they wouldn't be of help in explaining UFO observations, since UFOs aren't that tiny.

And I find it rather presumptuous by the scientific community to believe that our 3 dimensional math and instruments would be able to correctly or completely reveal the complexity of this phenomenon.

It depends on what you hypothesize about the extra dimensions. If you hypothesize they are isolated somehow from our three dimensions of space and one of time, and don't interact, then it's difficult to prove such things don't exist. But if that's your hypothesis, then you're also doing nothing to explain the UFO phenomenon as interdimensional which implies that what's being observed with 'interdimensional UFOs" would be some kind of interaction with of the extra dimensions with our own.

If you instead hypothesize that there is some kind of interaction with the other dimensions and our three of space and time, then that would explain why people can see them, but aren't people's eyes and brain three dimensional sensors?

It's hard to make logical sense of a thought process where you seem to posit that people can see them with their 3D eye sensors but no other 3D sensor can work. While the eyes are biological and other sensors are not, many of the other 3D sensors scientists use are far more sensitive than eyes, for example they can in some cases detect a single photon, which a human eye can't do; it requires at least a handful of photons to sense any kind of optical image.

originally posted by: sputniksteve
a reply to: MissSmartypants

I fully understand, I am just curious if Arb knows better than the theorists or if I am misunderatanding. It seems short sighted to me to make such an absolute statement.

I don't think you do fully understand, because if you understood either the science or what I wrote, you wouldn't be asking that question. I already explained it the best I can, so to give you other words saying basically the same thing, I'll post a university source explaining why the interdimensional hypothesis for UFOs is largely a pseudoscientific concept.

From the posting histories of the people who posted in this thread, moebius is the only one who I'm aware has the background to fully understand this; and he probably already knows it because it's along the lines of what he tried to explain also, but I'm afraid it will be over the heads of many people who don't have a lot of math and physics background. I'll quote selected passages, but I suggest reading the entire linked article since it's not tremendously long.

Higher Dimensions in Physics and Mathematics!

Pseudoscientists lean heavily on the assumption that their readers will know absolutely nothing about science or math. This is a pretty safe assumption, alas. And it requires no effort on the part of the pseudoscientist, because he also invariably knows no science or math either.

It is worth summarizing the ways in which the various concepts of "higher dimensions'' gradually diffused out from legitimate math and science, through hundreds of increasingly distorted, confused and muddled journalistic presentations and sensationalizations, into late 19th Century science fiction and 20th Century pseudoscience.

In the late 19th Century mathematicians became increasingly interested in the foundations of geometry. Our own universe has 3 space dimensions. But what would geometry be like if there were 4 space dimensions? Or 5? Or 10? Or an arbitrary number? Or an infinite number? Mathematicians worked a great deal on geometries with arbitrary numbers of space dimensions.

Mathematicians also worked a great deal on "non-Euclidian'' geometries that violate one or more of the postulates of Euclid. In Euclidian geometry, parallel lines remain the same distance apart. One can imagine a geometry in which parallel lines eventually intersect, and a geometry in which parallel lines gradually separate further and further. Such spaces are usually described as "curved''— an example is the 2-dimensional surface of a sphere, on which lines initially parallel at the equator of the sphere intersect at the poles of the sphere.


Mathematicians had no idea that their work would ever prove useful to physicists, but some of it did have application in the real world. For hundreds of years physicists had worked in a 4-dimensional framework, because it takes a minimum of 4 numbers to specify an event: 3 to specify its space location and 1 to specify when it happened. In 1905 Einstein found that, to be correct, laws of physics must be written in a 4-dimensional form that physicists call "Lorentz Invariant,'' or "Manifestly Covariant.'' The reason is that different observers will disagree as to how much of an event "projects'' onto the space axes and how much "projects'' onto the time axis. That is, different observers can disagree as to how long a process takes, or on the size of the physical space that the process occupies. Only the full four-dimensional aspects of the process remain the same for all observers.

In 1915, Einstein found a more general description of gravitational phenomena, in which the density of matter directly determines the "curvature'' of 4-dimensional space-time. That is, his theory of gravity was purely geometrical. The amount of matter determines the type of geometry that exists in the surrounding space. Other matter travels along the straightest possible trajectory in this curved space-time...

The structure of all known physical laws demands that our universe have only 3 extended space dimensions. For example, the fact— established and confirmed by experiment consistently for nearly 400 years— that all long-range interactions, such as gravity and the radiation field of the electromagnetic force, fall off like the inverse square of the distance, demands that space be precisely 3 dimensional.

That's true unless the other dimensions never interact with ours, and if that's the case, then the non-interacting other dimensions are a useless hypothesis to explain interdimensional UFOs which nobody would see if they didn't interact somehow.

Then the article talks about the extra dimensions in string and M theory and why they are also useless for an interdimensional UFO hypothesis:

More confusion about higher dimensions was generated in the press beginning in 1984, when physicists became excited about so-called "string theory.'' Physicists have never been able to work out a theory of gravitation that is consistent with quantum mechanics and also has some feature that indicates it might be uniquely correct! String theory provided a geometrical description of quantum processes that incorporated gravity very naturally. But three other forces besides gravity are known. Borrowing the idea of Kaluza and Klein, physicists incorporated the other three forces and their "couplings" by adding space dimensions— the only thing you can do in a theory that is purely geometric. A typical string theory had 9 or 10 space dimensions and 1 time dimension. The extra space dimensions had to be there to incorporate phenomena other than gravity geometrically, but they could not "actually'' be there or the theory would not have worked. The solution was to curl these extra dimensions up mathematically into tight "wads'' no more than 10-35 meters in length, a process called "compaction." The extra dimensions would thus be "compact," and indetectable.

So those extra dimensions in string or M theory are useless for the interdimensional UFO hypothesis.

What about the possibility of other dimensions which are larger? They would still be less than a tiny fraction of a meter, not much use for the interdimensional UFO hypothesis:

One straightforward tipoff that extra dimensions are there would be a departure of the gravitational force from the familiar inverse-square dependence on distance, for small distances. How small? Well, indeed gravity has not been very carefully studied and probed at very short but macroscopic distances, such as 10-5 meters or less. Fairly simple but tedious experiments can be done and are being done to settle some of these questions, and we will just patiently have to await results.

So the possibility of extra dimensions is being researched in that arena also, again too small to support the UFO IDH at a very tiny fraction of a meter or less.

Finally:

Pseudoscientists and fiction writers have always loved "higher dimensions.'' Almost any fantasy can be motivated by appeal to the "mysterious 4th dimension,'' or the famous "15th Akasic dimension.'' But it is important to realize that such concepts are not borrowed from either science or mathematics, and have no basis whatsoever in the verified descriptions and observed phenomena of the world we actually live in.

That's the science.