Bushes morals for the world/US Draws Jeers for Abortion Comments at UN

Originally posted by Skibum

Important question: Whose actions? ...Not always the woman's or girl's. Life is complicated and we can't always know the true circumstances behind the "event." ...Blanket judgments and one-size-fits-all solutions just don't work.

Not always. But in the majority of cases are not rape and incest. Most of them are oops I got pregant because I had sex. Plain and simple.
Sure they may have used protection but no protection is 100 percent effective. I don't feel that having an abortion because a woman doesn't want to deal with the consequences of their actions is justifiable.

Before you go off on how abortion is a choice and whatnot, The first choice in the majority of cases is the choice to have sex. I'm not saying don't have sex, but be prepared for the consequences that come with it. When you decide to have sex you open yourself up to alot more consequences than just pregnancy.Unfortunately since there is such an easy out, IE killing the consequence, to pregnancy many people give this consequence little thought until it happens.

Okay - leaving extenuating circumstances like rape, incest, history of abuse out of it.

...Did you know that poverty is growing world wide, including in the USA. The middle class is disappearing rapidly - and there's a fast growing split between the rich and poor.

...So you're saying that the majority of people in the world not only have to go without food, schooling and water - but they can't get laid either?






.

...So you're saying that the majority of people in the world not only have to go without food, schooling and water - but they can't get laid either?

No I never said don't have sex. I said be prepared for the consequences.
I also said there are consequences other than getting pregnant. Unlike abortion there is no oops I'm infected with HIV I will just go get that fixed so I can continue to be irresponsible. Or oops I've caught a venerial disease for the fifth time and now even when I choose to have a baby I won't be able too because my reprodutive system no longer works maybe I can fix that too.


It all comes down to personnal responsibility, you may find it to be a joke, but in reality the best way to avoid the consequences of sex is to avoid having sex. Condoms and other birth control methods are not perfect.
Sure its fun to sleep around, but when something happens the only one to blame is yourself.

...Did you know that poverty is growing world wide, including in the USA. The middle class is disappearing rapidly - and there's a fast growing split between the rich and poor.

Yet somehow it is still possible to overcome being poor. Its amazing the number of people here in america seem to be able to climb above where they came from. I guess it boils down to doing something with the cards you are dealt instead of just complaining about them incessantly.

Yes, any country criticizes us for what we do, shut up, nonya biz. We invade other countries, what? We allowed to impose our morals and stuff. We tell other countries that they should fall before Bush as slaves to the NeoCon movement, they say no, we call them evil commies. WTF? In your own borders, your rules, leave other people alone.

FTW!

The world doesn't have any idea on how to govern themselves, and then when we make a suggestion, they ridicule and reject us.

The world says we're monsters for killing murderers who commit crimes when they're juvenile, then turn around and say the same for trying to save an unborn life!

BTW, that's nowhere as bad as our own rejecting us!

[edit on 5/3/05 by Intelearthling]

Go ahead and shoot skag, then rage at me for refusing to pay for it.
If the left has nothing better to offer than failed foreign philosophies for living and a fear of hearing anything that contests thier worldview, that's thier problem, not America's. Pay your socialist buroweaselas from someone else's treasury.

The world has no idea how to govern itself?
Funny i always had democracy down as a greek concept.
Oh well, ill get over it.

But adressing the post in question the US doesnt force its values on anyone, in England at least we lap it up, we watch US films, US TV (crap like friends :flame listen to US music (Linkin F***ing Park)

England is slowly becoming more and more American, the two fingered salute has been replaced with one, trousers are called 'pants'.

Its a shame really, English culture tended to be much more friendly.

Originally posted by dgtempe
The loudest catcalls, unusual at the world body, came when she articulated U.S. policy on AIDS prevention for adolescents: "We emphasize the value of the ABC -- abstinence, be faithful, and correct and consistent condom use where appropriate -- approach in comprehensive strategies to combat the spread of HIV/AIDS and the promotion of abstinence as the healthiest and most responsible choice for adolescents."

This being said, if you research all of the above topics you will find that the USA is waaaay on the bottom of all these so called ABC's. No wonder the world boos and laughs. Give me a break. I say wait a few years, see what happens before you go tooting your own horn, and pretending our morality is so above.

I do not see anyone representing the USA saying that the USA has perfected this method of "ABC's". What is being stated is that these "ABC's" are emphasized. And what is wrong with these ABC's? They sound about right to me for control of HIV/AIDS. As long as I am faithful to my wife, since neither of us have any diseases, and she is faithful too, then there will be no AIDS introduced into our lives. Unless under some other very rare circumstances such as using a dirty needle, but we don't do drugs either. Uhh, abstinence, yeah, that works too. Condom use where appropriate is probably the least effective of the three, but it works. I do not read anyone saying that the USA is holier. They pointed out their emphasis on the control of AIDS. And if other countries boo this, then I just don't understand. Do they emphasize sex with anyone anytime with no condoms?

Well, what doesn't give us the right to pose our opinion?

We can, and we will. Well, the Bush Administration, anyways.

It is simple, if they can have their opinions, we can have ours right, right?

-wD

Several different issues intertwine in this one topic and ongoing thread:

1) U.S. attempting to impose its morality/ethics on all other nations -- while this is true, it's also shortsighted to the extreme.

The world's population has tripled since 1950 - from 2 billion to 6 billion;
No one really knows the numbers AIDS/HIV infected, other than it is the 40 MILLION range by the end of 2005 -- AIDs Statistics 2004;
More than 840 million people in the world are malnourished — 799 million of them live in the developing world;
More than 153 million of the world's malnourished people are children under the age of 5;
Six million children under the age of 5 die every year as a result of hunger;
Lack of dietary diversity and essential minerals and vitamins also contributes to increased child and adult mortality. Vitamin A deficiency impairs the immune system, increasing the annual death toll from measles and other diseases by an estimated 1.3 million-2.5 million children.
Source: Hunger Statistics

2) Attacking abortion is a "red herring" as most of these people are so far "off the grid" that abortion and/or contraception isn't even an option (neither of which the U.S. supports).

3) Men in the U.S. need to review their own stance on abortion more honestly:

Men are the primary predators when seeking sex;
Men frequently want nothing to do with an unplanned pregnancy that their sperm produced;
Men who get caught by the 18-year child support are frequently unhappy about it.

The real morality issue is the escalating birthrate on a worldwide basis with diminishing resources. All disasters, whether natural or human caused will continue to escalate in the human toll due to the birthrate.

Posturing on so-called morality issues over abortion is counterproductive as it doesn't come close to the genuine issues at play.

You are off-topic, ldyguique.

[edit on 6-3-2005 by steggyD]

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Well, I guess that no one can argue the fact that the Bush administration is guilty of pushing its morals on the world, arrogance, and ethical ignorance.

Abortion being a moral issue, is like murder being a moral issue. Some support abortion and some support both, but I don't see how he is pushing his morals by just explaining his opinion on the matter. You are telling others not to push their morals on other people. Well, your morals which include not wanting others pushing their morals, means that you are pushing your morals on us by saying that people can't voice thier opinion. Thus you are pushing your morals on us.

Abortion being a moral issue, is like murder being a moral issue. Some support abortion and some support both, but I don't see how he is pushing his morals by just explaining his opinion on the matter. You are telling others not to push their morals on other people. Well, your morals which include not wanting others pushing their morals, means that you are pushing your morals on us by saying that people can't voice thier opinion. Thus you are pushing your morals on us.

well said and to that I say.

You have voted Kosmo Yagkoto for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Wow, I should speak up more often.

Originally posted by Kosmo Yagkoto


Abortion being a moral issue, is like murder being a moral issue. Some support abortion and some support both, but I don't see how he is pushing his morals by just explaining his opinion on the matter.

The Bush administration is not just 'expressing their opinion'. It is much more than that. I will explain this one more time because apparently some people dont like to read an entire thread before they question it.......

The Bush administration is attempting to get the UN to basically 'sanction' thier ethics and lobby for them in the rest of the world. The UN hold a lot of power of alot of countries. There are countries that wouldnt survive without the UN. These countries are forced to accept UN policy, or have UN support withdrawn from them.

You are telling others not to push their morals on other people.

Not just others. I am saaying the Bush administration has no right to tell the world how their ethics should be percieved and enacted.

Well, your morals which include not wanting others pushing their morals, means that you are pushing your morals on us by saying that people can't voice thier opinion. Thus you are pushing your morals on us.

Umm.....NO. I am pushing morals on no one. That is the whole point. Your psychoanalization was a poor effort to twist my views. Nice try though.

Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Well, what doesn't give us the right to pose our opinion?

We dont run any other country but America. Thats what DOESNT give us the right. It is a bit like kidnapping to your neighbors kids and they are a different culture than what you were brought up in, and their culture believes in different morals and ethics, and you are teaching them your way, even though you stole them from their parents.

We can, and we will. Well, the Bush Administration, anyways.

Well, I can go down to the liquor store and rob it too. Should I

It is simple, if they can have their opinions, we can have ours right, right?

We CAN have our own opinions, as long as we are not attempting to intigrate them into other cultures that dont hold the same beliefs as us.

Kidfinger,

So basically you are saying that even though we are throwing alot of money either indirectly (through to U.N.) and directly, we just need to keep our opinions to ourselves? So basically instead of saying to the people that are dying over there," you know, if you quit some of the things you are doing you might just survive as a culture" you advocate just pissin away any help. I realize this doesn't apply to the abortion aspect of this debate but it applies to the AIDS part. Why should money thrown at a problem if you can't voice an opinion as to how to at least slow down the problem?

The fact the the U.S. and many other countries spend many millions of dollars in countries that don't appear to want to do anything to help themselves is what gives us the right to at least voice our opinion as to how to help solve the problem. Why should we squander money if someone is just going to keep on be so self destructive?


I still wonder how you take

Sauerbrey said the United States was dropping its demand that the document be amended to say that abortion is a matter of national sovereignty and not a human right delineated by the 1995 conference in Beijing

and

We emphasize the value of the ABC -- abstinence, be faithful, and correct and consistent condom use where appropriate -- approach in comprehensive strategies to combat the spread of HIV/AIDS and the promotion of abstinence as the healthiest and most responsible choice for adolescents

to be anything close to forcing morals and ethics on anyone.

So saying what appears to be that abortion is up to the individual country is forcing what??????

To say that Abstinence ,Being Faithful , and Condom use ,the most scientifically proven way to slow down the spread of AIDS, is forcing what moral or ethic????????

Show me where you see any forcing of morals and ethics?
Show me where we are trying to force abortion or anti abortion on another country.
From what I read in your link they were apparently trying to allow individual countries to decide for themselves instead of saying abortion is a fundamental right to all.
The ABC is not a moral or ethical position. It is a scientific fact that it reduces the spread of diseases like HIV.

I equate what you are saying to someone telling their doctor to get bent after he says "you know, if you quit smoking and lose 20 pounds you might live longer"

Originally posted by Skibum
Kidfinger,

So basically you are saying that even though we are throwing alot of money either indirectly (through to U.N.) and directly, we just need to keep our opinions to ourselves?

Yes.

So basically instead of saying to the people that are dying over there," you know, if you quit some of the things you are doing you might just survive as a culture" you advocate just pissin away any help.

Now you are twisting my words to fit your desired expected result. That is not what I said or ment. You are assuming and we have already had that discussion. If the countries in need ask us for our help, we should extend our hand. Otherwise, we should keep our mouths closed and our opinions for ourselves. You know the saying "You can give a man a fish and feed him for a day, or you can teach him to fish and feed him for life." Well, if we keep our opinions to ourselves and let these countries learn on there own how they should percieve ethics, they will be better off than if we force our values down their throat.

Why should we squander money if someone is just going to keep on be so self destructive?

I also think we should stop giving money to those who are squandering the helping hand.

I still wonder how you take

Sauerbrey said the United States was dropping its demand that the document be amended to say that abortion is a matter of national sovereignty and not a human right delineated by the 1995 conference in Beijing

and

We emphasize the value of the ABC -- abstinence, be faithful, and correct and consistent condom use where appropriate -- approach in comprehensive strategies to combat the spread of HIV/AIDS and the promotion of abstinence as the healthiest and most responsible choice for adolescents

to be anything close to forcing morals and ethics on anyone.

Look, what I take as the global forced binging of American values is explained in the process that the UN uses to influence the other countries. The US uses the UN for this and I just presented one of many examples. Try Metacrawler. Its a good search engine.

So saying what appears to be that abortion is up to the individual country is forcing what??????

Could you reword this as it makes no sense?

Show me where you see any forcing of morals and ethics?
Show me where we are trying to force abortion or anti abortion on another country.
From what I read in your link they were apparently trying to allow individual countries to decide for themselves instead of saying abortion is a fundamental right to all.
The ABC is not a moral or ethical position. It is a scientific fact that it reduces the spread of diseases like HIV.

I can only show you the double standards of the administration. If you refuse to acknowledge them then you are wasting both of our time by responding.

I have been trying to tell you why I feel this way. You are not listening. You are automnatically responding to my post without paying atention to what I have said. Otherwise, you would not have asked the exact same question reworded four different times.

I equate what you are saying to someone telling their doctor to get bent after he says "you know, if you quit smoking and lose 20 pounds you might live longer"

That is your right.

I equate what you are saying as it is OK to make the world act like us even if they dont believe we are an example of how to act. Hitler had the same basic Idea, as well as many other terrible govermental establishments throughout history.

However, if you are not American, please dont tell me how to live in my country.

*in my best Indian accent* Thank you! Come Agian!

H and K GTWC is the funniest movie ever


[edit on 3/6/05 by Kidfinger]

Another point to make is...

Considering that we are a party to the treaty being discussed, that is what gives us every right to voice our opinion on the subject.

Unless you think its best to just allow the rest of the world to dictate to us what is in our own best interests. I mean heaven forbid we voice our opinion when formulating something that applies to us as well. So much for being a sovereign country ourselves when now according to Kidfinger we are no longer allowed to have any input at all.

Originally posted by Skibum
Another point to make is...

Considering that we are a party to the treaty being discussed, that is what gives us every right to voice our opinion on the subject.

Unless you think its best to just allow the rest of the world to dictate to us what is in our own best interests. I mean heaven forbid we voice our opinion when formulating something that applies to us as well. So much for being a sovereign country ourselves when now according to Kidfinger we are no longer allowed to have any input at all.

So true. Kidfinger seems to be upset that we say that maybe abstinence, being faithful to a partner and using condoms when needed are just horrible things to say to anyone. Wow, we really tried to force some bad things upon other countries. I think our leaders are wrong for saying this. Why should they use condoms? Why be faithful in a relationship? Can anyone tell my wife that it's only the US government trying to force bad values upon us? I need an outlet, since it's getting a bit infrequent at home. I love your view on this issue, Kidfinger. You are absolutely right. What a horrible thing to say, ABC's. Wow!!!