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US forces shoot at car containing freed Italian hostage and kill Italian secret service agent.

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posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by MattMarriott
The reason Sgrena was not executed after being injured was that they would have to kill any other officers that were not aware of the plan.


So enlighten me...just how did you draw this conclusion ???

Was this a US involved plot, or an Italy involved plot ???????

[edit on 4-3-2005 by Jedi_Master]




posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 08:29 PM
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Wow, I feel sorry that the agent was killed, but damn, the U.S. Marines at that checkpoint DID warn them and TRY TO GET THEM TO STOP.

This is often overlooked.

The Marines at the Checkpoint see a speeding car coming at them, so what do they do? Warn it to stop.

How?

1) Hand signals and verbal signals
2) Lights and flares
3) Warning shots around the vehicle.

Gee, the car is still coming at them. So, they have the RIGHT to assume that it is an enemy combatant.

I would not take the chance and wait for that car to approach. They gave it proper warning.

It sucks that the agents in the car did not stop, but hey, it was their fault.

=/

-wD



posted on Mar, 4 2005 @ 08:57 PM
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Originally posted by WeBDeviL
The Marines at the Checkpoint see a speeding car coming at them, so what do they do? Warn it to stop.


Mabye they should go home?

This is the whole point of the opposition to the Iraq War.

Can you justify the people (American or otherwise) who die for an non-defensive war?


DC1

posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 03:53 AM
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Originally posted by MattMarriott

After the demonstration of 500,000 people in Italy, following her videos accusing the US of destroying Iraq.
Sgrena alive was the last thing that Berlusconi wanted.


Now that makes sense, unfortunately...

BTW, when I mentioned the 400/500 fired shots, I was referring exactly what was said on the national news - and they didn't say these 4/500 shots were warning shots - they mentioned the approximation of the overall shots fired. Now, how many of those were warning shots it was not said.



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 04:01 AM
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If there is a conspiracy, then she (the reporter) will probably get assassinated in a couple of years time.



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 06:24 AM
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Originally posted by kenshiro2012
The Italian Secret Service Ignored protocol, did not identify themselves, did not obtain the proper clearances nor communicating with the U.S. forces.
This is on top of this check point being one of the most dangerous as it has been the target of many terrorist attacks.
Ace of Base, Have you been in any situation where you have had to defend / protect yourself? Have you been in a wartime situation?
By your remarks, I am fairly sure that the answer to both questions will be no.
The troops that man these checkpoints are under orders to protect themselves. If there were not car bomb attacks occuring olmost daily in Iraq, then yes maybe the outcome would have been different.
Also remember, If you (or anyone else) come racing up to a checkpoint in any country, manned by any nationality, the chances of you being shot at are extremely high.
if the Italian SS had followed any of the normal proceedures, then instead of the car being fired they would have been excorted through by armed guards.


An updated story says the US did know that they were coming and one of the people in that car says they were not speeding.

Look at the following thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 06:56 AM
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Jeez when will you guys realise that US troops never do anything wrong.:end sacrcasm.

We are all aware of false road blocks being set up and this has caused many deaths, many of the Iraqi police have died this way. Is it dark at 9pm in Iraq at the moment? 400-500 hundread shots being fired in the dark would make m drive fast for sure.

Looking forward to more info on this. Will we see an admittance that thy did wrong and an apology?



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 01:34 PM
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Well said Skippy, Im sorry this Italian agent got whacked, but he made a bad call in the field and paid the price.

I wonder how much the Italians coughed up to set her free? Lets be frank, some of these kidnappers are in it for the cash.

Maybe, some of the kidnappers "act" like Muslim extremist's to scare the hell outta the victims families and their really just regular hoods. If you get $500,000 for one kidnapping.....thats alot of money.

I bet my bottom doller ~looks in my wallet~....which is what I got!
That this lady was kidnapped by regular hoods.....if she was kidnapped by religious extremists, her body woulda been found under a bridge. Its not just foreign extremist our boys are fighting....its organized crime gangs....drug dealers...kidnappers...bank robbers etc etc etc...


Maximu§



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 02:09 PM
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Oooo, the Troops DID KNOW they were coming. So, the "well, they didn't know who was in the car." is bs. So, it seems they are trigger happy. Of course, if we weren't invbading the ME for oil this never would have happened.

How many people die when you fire bomb a city? When you carpet bomb a city? When you invade a city that has 1,000 freedom fighters and 90,000 civillians? Wait, "we don't keep a body count".


DC1

posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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Again, I refer to the news on air tonight:

G. Sgrena is back in Italy, tired and hurt but overall allright. She grieves for the man who saved her life, and she soon spoke via phone from the hospital in which she is at present. To be honest, her voice did not sound like the one a shocked person would have, but this is my personal opinion.

She states that:
a) they were NOT driving fast,
b) the driver didn't even have half a chance to explain they were all italians,
c) the checkpoint did NOT look like an ordinary checkpoint, but a simple patrol (???)
d) Each person in the car spoke english perfectly, explanations etc would have been absolutely straightforward,
e) the man who saved her life, losing his, had just been speaking over the cell, in english, to US 'persons' (her words) and everything seemed as it should have been,
f) she remembers flashing lights, and immediately a tremendous shower of fired shots.

The news continued stressing the point, way more than yesterday, that the Ita gov't contacted US gov't to receive explanations regarding the occurred tragedy, plus requiring a detailed search for the responsibility factor.



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 04:43 PM
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Well DC1, someone injured who is laying in a hospital and probably medicated is not going to have a real clear memory of what happened.

She was not driving and at night...everything is a blur. I look forward to hearing the soldiers testimony here.


Max


DC1

posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 05:02 PM
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I agree with you, LA Max - that is also why her voice didn't sound 'right' to me. She sounded like she was perfectly alert and repeating something rehearsed.

Disregard this, in any case, as it is only something that hit me as very very wrong in the context - I'd have expected emotion - any emotion. But it's but a tiny detail in a story which is developing into a huge tangle.

Most surely a lot of money has exchanged hands somewhere along the line, as the man who died was also reknown as an excellent kidnaps' mediator, and this was freely stated on the news. No mention of any ransom whatsoever has been made, though...

I also wonder why the other survivors have not said a word yet.



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 06:45 PM
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Reasoning against an assassination conspiracy:

  • It would be easier logistically to assassinate her after a return to Italy and make it look like a suicide or accident.
  • It would be easier to arrange with agents posing as insurgents kidnap her and kill her while in captivity.
  • Soldier testimony attests that the car was speeding and neglected to follow proper checkpoint procedure.
  • A planned assassination would not have failed as it did. Planted "soldiers" would have finished the job.
  • In the event of a planned assassination, the Italian intel agents in the car would conceivably have been informed and would have avoided being hit.


*Dons tinfoil hat*

Reasoning for an assassination conspiracy:

  • Sgrena has been a thorn in the side of the Italian government's participation in the Iraq invasion and a strong voice for (and inciter of) protest, "documenting in a professional manner the violence caused by the occupation of the country." as stated in her biography at the Il Manifesto which she reported for.
  • The only witnesses quoted are the soldiers involved in the incident.
  • Sgrena has testified herself that the car was not speeding and that the targeting of the vehicle was suspicious to say the least.
  • Having her killed in this manner is convenient since the world is already conditioned to accept that these checkstop mistakes are common, and the media coverage will be less sensational than if she was killed in Italy, particularly for the Italian public.
  • Speculation that it was an assassination will seem ridiculous in light of how much effort was put into arranging her release.

Personally, I think it was a whack-job by the powers that be, but hey, that's pure speculation on my part.

*Takes off tinfoil hat*

Come on folks, it was an accident. A tragic accident and that's it. Get a grip, eh?







[edit on 2005/3/5 by wecomeinpeace]



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 07:34 PM
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This murder was not an alleged one.

The thing is: U.S. troops' mental stance gets worse day after day. The boys who killed the Italian agent were probably scared to death seeing a car moving towards them. So they sent their "friendly" 400-500 bullets to hit the car's motor and stop it. But since fear takes a way too much from your sharpshooting ability, the bullets went staight to unlucky Italians.

Just as simple.

I can see a day when U.S. troops with depleted psychological toughness will start to shoot their very own shadows. (or maybe it's happening right now over there, who knows?)



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 08:25 PM
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Just out of curiosity.

Does anyone know how many clips there would've used up for 4-500 bullets?

Was they reloads?



posted on Mar, 5 2005 @ 08:27 PM
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Originally posted by rapier28
Just out of curiosity.

Does anyone know how many clips there would've used up for 4-500 bullets?

Was they reloads?

500 rounds = 16.7 reloads or 17 rifles
400 rounds= 13.3 reloads or 14 rifles
This is suggesting they used rifles not SSW's.


[edit on 26/02/2005 by devilwasp]



posted on Mar, 6 2005 @ 02:32 AM
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An updated story says it wasn't even a roadblock, just a patrol, and they fired as soon as they put the spotlight on them:


seattletimes

Sgrena, who was interviewed by investigators at the Rome hospital, denied that the car was speeding, according to ANSA news agency.

"The firing was not justified by the speed of our car," she reportedly said, adding it was traveling at a "regular" speed. "It wasn't a checkpoint, but a patrol which shot as soon as it had lit us up with a spotlight. We had no idea where the shots were coming from."

It remained unclear whether the Italians notified the Americans at the airport that they were en route. However, the plane picking up Sgrena was a special Italian military flight whose landing would have been known at some level of the U.S. military.



posted on Mar, 6 2005 @ 03:26 AM
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Hold on to your hats guys, this story could be big.



posted on Mar, 6 2005 @ 03:43 AM
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Im pretty open to the fact that Soldiers make mistakes. But there can only be so many mistakes really. Then people start thinking you just dont give a fugg.

Car not speeding, says Sgrena



The Italian journalist who was wounded by American troops at a checkpoint in Baghdad shortly after she was released by her Iraqi captors denied US allegations the car she was in was speeding.

Giuliana Sgrena gave her first account yesterday of the incident in which she was wounded and Italian intelligence officer Nicola Calipari was killed.

The shooting has fuelled anti-American sentiment in a country where people are deeply opposed to the war in Iraq.

''We thought the danger was over after my rescue,'' Sgrena told Rai News 24 television by telephone.

''And instead suddenly there was this shooting, we were hit by a spray of fire. I was talking to Nicola ... when he leaned over me, probably to defend me, and then he slumped over. That was a truly terrible thing.''

Her boyfriend, Pier Scolari, said she told him that the car had not been speeding.

Sgrena subsequently told interviewers the car was traveling at ''regular speed''.

The US military said the Americans used hand and arm signals, flashing white lights and fired warning shots to get the car to stop.

But in an interview with Italian La 7 TV, Sgrena said ''there was no bright light, no signal, and at a certain point, from one side, a firestorm erupted''.


US mil vs victim's word. I see a lot of people explaining what happened as if they were there. She was. Again, I'm sympathetic to mistakes. But this has really pissed off one of America's key allies (not really the Italian public , rather their government. But that's pretty much the case for all of America's allies).

Can anyone give me a definitive answer as to how many American soldiers have been killed by friendly fire put forward by Americas allies? Is this a level of professionalism issue? Why do we keep hearing of Americans bombing Canadians or Americans shooting the British? I'm genuinely interested in whether there are any reversed situations where Americans take friendly fire, and how far back you have to go in decades to find such cases.

Cheers.


fixed link

[edit on 6-3-2005 by cargo]



posted on Mar, 6 2005 @ 03:49 AM
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Originally posted by cargo
I'm genuinely interested in whether there are any reversed situations where Americans take friendly fire, and how far back you have to go in decades to find such cases.


I'm not sure about getting hit by allies but the US has been hit by friendly fire from their fellow soldiers.

There's a list of friendly fire incidents at the link below but I don't think it's complete:

Deadly incidents involving friendly fire

It does list an incident where a Danish soldier was killed by another Dane and there was an incident where British soldiers were killed by British tank fire.

[edit on 6-3-2005 by AceOfBase]




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