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The Russia collusion allegations are a classic "Witch Trial"

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posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:08 AM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: chr0naut

Let me get this straight, just to clarify.

You believe that Russians influenced the election?


Yes.

My wife is very trusting and believes all sorts of crap she has seen on Falsebork. She has been quite angry with me at times when I go online and show her that the posts and advertisements from unknown, unmoderated and unregulated online social media are usually total lies.

Just yesterday she was telling me about this great breakthrough AI quantum computing autotrading bot that Elon Musk was promoting as free to the first 1000 people, was something we had to hurry and get on board.

So I did some digging.

Elon Musk was never involved, they just used his name and picture. There was no AI involved, it was a brokerage somewhere in the Dominican republic. There, of course, was no quantum computing involved either. It wasn't for free they wanted $1,000 US as seed funds. And, get this, they wanted you to buy cryptocurrency, that is what they were trading in!

But my wife had believed the advertisement and had shared it to her circle of friends about this great opportunity! So she had to contact them all and say it's a scam.

That is the sort of person and reaction that changed their vote because of what they read online.

On Falsebork alone there were estimates that the Russian troll posts, that came from about 750 ID's created for the purpose, were re-shared 350 million times. Re tweets or comments on Russian troll posts on the twit indicator, 677,775 people.

I find it incredible that someone could be adamant that there was no effect when there was such a massive, organized propaganda campaign and in the face of the actual numbers involved.


Ok so what about Google manipulation of search results that a google exec conservatively estimates shifted 15+ million votes her way?
Are you also upset about that or that ok because google claims to be American?

Is your wife the sort of person who responds to Nigerian princes and helps them get their money back from evil dictators?
I’ve never heard of an actual person falling for any of those scams, you sure you’re not making that up to prove an invalid point?

And while I’m here, I always hear lefty’s talking about Russian influence, what exactly did they say?
If it was all lies I’d be curious to hear what they were but if they were just spreading genuine info then aren’t they kinda the same as you and me? Just foreign nationals sharing an opinion or information?




posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:11 AM
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a reply to: chr0naut

So you think the "lock her up" chants stemmed from Russian trolls online?

And not because of, oh I don't know, the endless list of crimes committed by Hillary Clinton that are well documented and easily researchable by anyone with a computer and fingers??



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:11 AM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Not only that, who are the allegators?

Is that why Trump was speaking about draining the swamp?



I have to ask...

Why do you think you are relevant to the conversation about American politics anymore here?

You're a partisan hack for the Democratic party, which not in favor anymore here.

Is it just some weird thing you do to get negative attention?

Honestly wondering.




My previous post was a little wordplay upon the misuse of the word "allegated" in the OP, instead of the correct word, "alleged".

I support neither the Democratic Party nor the Republican Party but are merely acting as devils advocate against a highly partisan online community that is increasingly unable or unwilling to consider alternate views and gullibly accepts the constant PR spin which is becoming, in Shakespeare's parlance, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"... an appeal to emotion but without any actual truth or credence.

Any actual debate requires that there be opposing viewpoints and I am here for the debate.

As someone with Asperger's, I am fairly emotionally detached from the argument. So insults don't usually get to me and I am not moved by emotional pleas, but rather by rational, systematic, truthful and credible dialogue.

The self congratulatory circle jerk, so they can feel that tiny dopamine hit with every 'star', 'flag', 'like' or 'retweet' they get, appears to me fairly empty. I am sure some assume that is is what ATS is about.

If someone has no other opinion and is just here to tell everyone how incredibly conforming they are, then they actually contribute almost nothing of substance. Their opinions are a waste of online storage and other people's time. Just another 'follower', following.

I have as much right as any other to be here and to debate. I know I have something to offer that is unique and rational.

But I do get negative attention. So do those people without an opinion or a contribution to the debate but just troll. It seems there are many reasons one would be here other than getting soothing to one's personal inadequacy with valueless and unconsidered, easy affirmations.


Touché

I very rarely agree with anything you say but that was very well said.

There is a definite lack of balance on this site and people like yourself, djn, Coin and Silly while obviously bat shyte crazy and wrong most of the time should be respected and even appreciated or else ATS would be a literal echo chamber and a metaphorical circle jerk.

As a fellow Antipodean (I’m Aussie) i always find it disturbing when nationality is brought into the convo to invalidate our point of view.
Maybe the fact we don’t have a horse in the race so to speak gives us a different point of view that might be worth listening to?

I enjoy debating you and even if I don’t agree with you and think you’re a bit NPCish your comments are always articulate and I can see the intelligence behind the comments even if I can’t see it in the comments themselves


Keep doing what your doing mate


P.s I got your original pun straight away and thought it was pretty funny and I didn’t see any malice in it, if you weren’t a known anti Trumper that would have been quite popular.
I started it


Thank you.

Perhaps we could be "respected adversaries".



Only when we disagree, otherwise I reckon we can be mates


Non Yanks of ATS rise up and unite



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:12 AM
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a reply to: chr0naut

You know full well that the lies and propaganda AGAINST Trump absolutely dwarfed whatever minuscule effect any ‘Russians’ had.

And you refuse to acknowledge it.

The ‘influence’ was against Trump, not clinton.

A small weight placed on top of the space shuttle does not ‘influence’ the launch. But the rocket propellant does.

(That’s called an analogy, and it’s very accurate in this case. The propellant is the anti trump lies and propaganda spread throughout social media by the VAST majority of subscribers worldwide)
edit on 31 7 2019 by Breakthestreak because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:13 AM
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originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: chr0naut

So you think the "lock her up" chants stemmed from Russian trolls online?

And not because of, oh I don't know, the endless list of crimes committed by Hillary Clinton that are well documented and easily researchable by anyone with a computer and fingers??



You don’t even need fingers nowadays, they have that voice typing software.
Basically there’s no excuse for not knowing how crooked the Trump opposition is



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:14 AM
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originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: chr0naut




Please explain how Obama, who believed that Hillary would win the election (like most Dems at the time). Sabotaged his party by letting the Russian trolls denigrate their only chance of retaining government. And remember that the trolls also were anti Obama as much as they were anti Clinton.


He knew she wasn't going to win from the time he told his anti Russia hacking security to stand down. He knew that for her to win he had to do something drastic, but the plan has failed.

If Dems really believe that Russia hacked the election, with no evidence to back them up, I wonder if they will ever hold Obama accountable since he was the Commander n Chief of this mishap?

They can't have their cake and eat it too.


The Dems almost won. In fact they would have if the popular vote was actually valid. Even in the EC votes, there were only 77 votes difference.

You are suggesting that Obama destroyed his own party's chances just so he could blame an opposition President for him losing.

And what would that achieve, exactly?



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:17 AM
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Well, the dEms most definitely won’t ‘almost win’ next year.
That’s for damn sure.

Please blame that on Facebook posts instead of their own actions and the actions of their disgusting support base.
edit on 31 7 2019 by Breakthestreak because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:17 AM
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originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: bloodymarvelous

Not only that, who are the allegators?

Is that why Trump was speaking about draining the swamp?



I have to ask...

Why do you think you are relevant to the conversation about American politics anymore here?

You're a partisan hack for the Democratic party, which not in favor anymore here.

Is it just some weird thing you do to get negative attention?

Honestly wondering.




My previous post was a little wordplay upon the misuse of the word "allegated" in the OP, instead of the correct word, "alleged".

I support neither the Democratic Party nor the Republican Party but are merely acting as devils advocate against a highly partisan online community that is increasingly unable or unwilling to consider alternate views and gullibly accepts the constant PR spin which is becoming, in Shakespeare's parlance, "a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"... an appeal to emotion but without any actual truth or credence.

Any actual debate requires that there be opposing viewpoints and I am here for the debate.

As someone with Asperger's, I am fairly emotionally detached from the argument. So insults don't usually get to me and I am not moved by emotional pleas, but rather by rational, systematic, truthful and credible dialogue.

The self congratulatory circle jerk, so they can feel that tiny dopamine hit with every 'star', 'flag', 'like' or 'retweet' they get, appears to me fairly empty. I am sure some assume that is is what ATS is about.

If someone has no other opinion and is just here to tell everyone how incredibly conforming they are, then they actually contribute almost nothing of substance. Their opinions are a waste of online storage and other people's time. Just another 'follower', following.

I have as much right as any other to be here and to debate. I know I have something to offer that is unique and rational.

But I do get negative attention. So do those people without an opinion or a contribution to the debate but just troll. It seems there are many reasons one would be here other than getting soothing to one's personal inadequacy with valueless and unconsidered, easy affirmations.


Touché

I very rarely agree with anything you say but that was very well said.

There is a definite lack of balance on this site and people like yourself, djn, Coin and Silly while obviously bat shyte crazy and wrong most of the time should be respected and even appreciated or else ATS would be a literal echo chamber and a metaphorical circle jerk.

As a fellow Antipodean (I’m Aussie) i always find it disturbing when nationality is brought into the convo to invalidate our point of view.
Maybe the fact we don’t have a horse in the race so to speak gives us a different point of view that might be worth listening to?

I enjoy debating you and even if I don’t agree with you and think you’re a bit NPCish your comments are always articulate and I can see the intelligence behind the comments even if I can’t see it in the comments themselves


Keep doing what your doing mate


P.s I got your original pun straight away and thought it was pretty funny and I didn’t see any malice in it, if you weren’t a known anti Trumper that would have been quite popular.
I started it


Thank you.

Perhaps we could be "respected adversaries".



Only when we disagree, otherwise I reckon we can be mates


Non Yanks of ATS rise up and unite



A union sounds a bit, you know, 'leftist'.

I'm probably too right-wing to accede to that.




posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:19 AM
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originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: chr0naut

So you think the "lock her up" chants stemmed from Russian trolls online?

And not because of, oh I don't know, the endless list of crimes committed by Hillary Clinton that are well documented and easily researchable by anyone with a computer and fingers??



No no no, definitely ze Russians



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:26 AM
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originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: chr0naut

Let me get this straight, just to clarify.

You believe that Russians influenced the election?


Yes.

My wife is very trusting and believes all sorts of crap she has seen on Falsebork. She has been quite angry with me at times when I go online and show her that the posts and advertisements from unknown, unmoderated and unregulated online social media are usually total lies.

Just yesterday she was telling me about this great breakthrough AI quantum computing autotrading bot that Elon Musk was promoting as free to the first 1000 people, was something we had to hurry and get on board.

So I did some digging.

Elon Musk was never involved, they just used his name and picture. There was no AI involved, it was a brokerage somewhere in the Dominican republic. There, of course, was no quantum computing involved either. It wasn't for free they wanted $1,000 US as seed funds. And, get this, they wanted you to buy cryptocurrency, that is what they were trading in!

But my wife had believed the advertisement and had shared it to her circle of friends about this great opportunity! So she had to contact them all and say it's a scam.

That is the sort of person and reaction that changed their vote because of what they read online.

On Falsebork alone there were estimates that the Russian troll posts, that came from about 750 ID's created for the purpose, were re-shared 350 million times. Re tweets or comments on Russian troll posts on the twit indicator, 677,775 people.

I find it incredible that someone could be adamant that there was no effect when there was such a massive, organized propaganda campaign and in the face of the actual numbers involved.


Ok so what about Google manipulation of search results that a google exec conservatively estimates shifted 15+ million votes her way?
Are you also upset about that or that ok because google claims to be American?

Is your wife the sort of person who responds to Nigerian princes and helps them get their money back from evil dictators?
I’ve never heard of an actual person falling for any of those scams, you sure you’re not making that up to prove an invalid point?

And while I’m here, I always hear lefty’s talking about Russian influence, what exactly did they say?
If it was all lies I’d be curious to hear what they were but if they were just spreading genuine info then aren’t they kinda the same as you and me? Just foreign nationals sharing an opinion or information?


There was some archive that some students and academics had made and put online where you could look at each of the troll user id's and then drill down and read all their posts.

I have lost the reference but I'll PM you if I find it again.

There's also a database of TwitIndicator posts that they released recently, something like 300 million of them, from known Russian trolls, and about 100 million of them were downloadable as .csv files.



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:28 AM
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300 million posts is minuscule

But the relentless anti-Trump campaign was not.

The effect the ze Russians had was zero point zero percent



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:32 AM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: IkNOwSTuff

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: highvein
a reply to: chr0naut

Let me get this straight, just to clarify.

You believe that Russians influenced the election?


Yes.

My wife is very trusting and believes all sorts of crap she has seen on Falsebork. She has been quite angry with me at times when I go online and show her that the posts and advertisements from unknown, unmoderated and unregulated online social media are usually total lies.

Just yesterday she was telling me about this great breakthrough AI quantum computing autotrading bot that Elon Musk was promoting as free to the first 1000 people, was something we had to hurry and get on board.

So I did some digging.

Elon Musk was never involved, they just used his name and picture. There was no AI involved, it was a brokerage somewhere in the Dominican republic. There, of course, was no quantum computing involved either. It wasn't for free they wanted $1,000 US as seed funds. And, get this, they wanted you to buy cryptocurrency, that is what they were trading in!

But my wife had believed the advertisement and had shared it to her circle of friends about this great opportunity! So she had to contact them all and say it's a scam.

That is the sort of person and reaction that changed their vote because of what they read online.

On Falsebork alone there were estimates that the Russian troll posts, that came from about 750 ID's created for the purpose, were re-shared 350 million times. Re tweets or comments on Russian troll posts on the twit indicator, 677,775 people.

I find it incredible that someone could be adamant that there was no effect when there was such a massive, organized propaganda campaign and in the face of the actual numbers involved.


Ok so what about Google manipulation of search results that a google exec conservatively estimates shifted 15+ million votes her way?
Are you also upset about that or that ok because google claims to be American?

Is your wife the sort of person who responds to Nigerian princes and helps them get their money back from evil dictators?
I’ve never heard of an actual person falling for any of those scams, you sure you’re not making that up to prove an invalid point?

And while I’m here, I always hear lefty’s talking about Russian influence, what exactly did they say?
If it was all lies I’d be curious to hear what they were but if they were just spreading genuine info then aren’t they kinda the same as you and me? Just foreign nationals sharing an opinion or information?


There was some archive that some students and academics had made and put online where you could look at each of the troll user id's and then drill down and read all their posts.

I have lost the reference but I'll PM you if I find it again.

There's also a database of TwitIndicator posts that they released recently, something like 300 million of them, from known Russian trolls, and about 100 million of them were downloadable as .csv files.


I’m not questioning or caring if they were Russian, what I want to know is was the info false?
To me it seems there is more than enough factual and verifiable dirt on Hillary that any falsehoods seem redundant.

So if it wasn’t lies these “Russians” were spreading why is their input less valid than yours or mine?
You argued that even as a non American your opinion counts, seems like a bit of a double standard to me.
You sure your not a Democrat?

You also didn’t answer what you thought of Googles actual admission of swaying votes, how do you feel about a search engine, the largest in the world deliberately intervening in an election on behalf of a candidate?
Over 15 million votes by their own reckoning
edit on 31/7/2019 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:35 AM
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originally posted by: Breakthestreak
a reply to: chr0naut

You know full well that the lies and propaganda AGAINST Trump absolutely dwarfed whatever minuscule effect any ‘Russians’ had.

And you refuse to acknowledge it.

The ‘influence’ was against Trump, not clinton.

A small weight placed on top of the space shuttle does not ‘influence’ the launch. But the rocket propellant does.

(That’s called an analogy, and it’s very accurate in this case. The propellant is the anti trump lies and propaganda spread throughout social media by the VAST majority of subscribers worldwide)


You're missing the point.

The argument the Dems want to get in, through the side of this one is : People in foreign countries should not be allowed to speak freely about our elections.

If you're debating whether Russia "influenced the election" (by which you mean spoke about and were listened to), more than domestic Americans, then you indirectly acknowledging that foreign people "influencing our election" with their free speech is a problem.

You're simply arguing it had no effect.


I strongly disagree that it is a problem. The whole world has to be allowed to participate in free discourse online, or nobody anywhere can.



The witch hunt can't be about whether Russia preferred Trump or Hillary.


(Russia will ALWAYS prefer Republican candidates, btw. And China will ALWAYS prefer Democrats.)



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:38 AM
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If witch trials are going to be a thing from now on, then I hope the next one is over whether Bernie Sanders (or whoever wins the dem nomination) colludes with Xi Jinping


China will surely take some overt actions to help the democrat candidate, and since collusion is non-disproveable and always a possibility, I think we should assign a "Special Counsel" to investigate whether the next Democratic president may (or may not have) colluded with China to get help with their election.



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:41 AM
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a reply to: bloodymarvelous

True

But the reason the dEms ‘almost won’ was because of foreign nationals ‘influencing’ the election by posting BILLIONS of anti trump lies and propaganda.

Yet, this poster claims to have a grievance because “if it wasn’t for the minuscule amount of Russian tweets then hilary would have won it”

If the dEms had their way and no free person was allowed to post tweets regarding the US elections, Trump would have won by one of the biggest margins in history

edit on 31 7 2019 by Breakthestreak because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 08:11 AM
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a reply to: IkNOwSTuff




And while I’m here, I always hear lefty’s talking about Russian influence, what exactly did they say? If it was all lies I’d be curious to hear what they were but if they were just spreading genuine info then aren’t they kinda the same as you and me? Just foreign nationals sharing an opinion or information?

exactly



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 09:42 AM
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a reply to: chr0naut




You are suggesting that Obama destroyed his own party's chances just so he could blame an opposition President for him losing.


I am suggesting an extremely in depth investigation into Obama's actions on telling hacking security to stand down while this was happening.




And what would that achieve, exactly?


Justice.

Now I answered your question. Answer mine.



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 10:06 AM
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I think people should be weary about what collusion the Democrats will come up with.

They will go to real low lengths in opposition of trump.

Scary bunch



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 11:02 AM
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originally posted by: bloodymarvelous
If witch trials are going to be a thing from now on, then I hope the next one is over whether Bernie Sanders (or whoever wins the dem nomination) colludes with Xi Jinping


China will surely take some overt actions to help the democrat candidate, and since collusion is non-disproveable and always a possibility, I think we should assign a "Special Counsel" to investigate whether the next Democratic president may (or may not have) colluded with China to get help with their election.
Good point.

With their cyber hacking, they may be looking around right now as we speak.



posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 10:59 PM
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originally posted by: Breakthestreak

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Breakthestreak
And still, no proof of ONE SINGLE PERSON changing their vote from hilary to Trump because they read a Russian tweet.

Surprise


What sort of thing would prove to you that someone changed their vote?

Do you imagine that someone, anywhere, was collecting such data?

Remember the "lock her up" chant? Remember the Obama birth certificate nonsense? Remember the thousands at rallies who were part of that? Those things were from the Russian trolls. The fact that most of what they were chanting about was provably false didn't stop them from parroting it in the thousands. Do you think that they might have changed their votes and because of the stuff they believed to be true because the read it online? There's your proof.


Do YOU remember the lies about Trump???

If the election was influenced it was influenced AGAINST Trump a whole lot more than it was the other way around

And he still won.


I don't particularly remember any lies about Trump from Russian trolls, but no doubt, there must have been.

Here's the database from the Permanent Select Comittee on Intelligence



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