Is insurance evil???

a reply to: trollz

Name one country where the political elite are not treated better than the common person.

In American, it used to be you could work hard to earn a good life.

Vs other countries where you could never elevate to a higher class.

Vs other countries, you are out of luck if your not in the right political party/ruling class/religious class.

a reply to: trollz

You don't have the right to go up to someone demand they labor for you. That's slavery.

You have every right to do everything in your power to keep yourself healthy.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: trollz

I agree. Because the local hospital gets stiffed by the people that don’t pay their ER bills, the hospital sticks it to those who pay. The total bill for me to get three stitches to treat an animal bite was $2000.00.

A few months ago I thought I had some kind of massive eye infection - I had like white pus oozing out of my eyelid and all over my eye, and my eye was all pink. I was understandably concerned, so I called a nearby walk-in clinic to ask about seeing a clinician to maybe get medication. I was told on the phone that just to talk to a clinician, NOT INCLUDING ANY TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR MEDICATION, but just to talk - would cost me several hundred dollars. I was given the option to set up a payment plan, or I could of course pay the entire price up front for like $100 less.
I refused to pay several hundred dollars just to talk to someone, so I stayed home and hoped my eye wouldn't rot out.

Imagine all the American citizens who can't afford to simply see a doctor.

originally posted by: Lumenari
a reply to: trollz

We probably can't because of the enormous strain the health care industry is under now because they are treating so many illegal immigrants for free.

But let's just give them all "free" healthcare so we stupid citizens can pay for it by being taxed more for it, thus having less take home income...

While we can't even afford our own health insurance because of the cost of treating illegal immigrants in emergency rooms keeps driving our cost higher.

Let's just do single payer, 3/4 of the hospitals will close in a year because they can't pay the bills, tank the economy while we are at it so that nobody has anything anymore and go forward!!!

Brilliant!!!

I suspect you may have misunderstood my position. I'm not in favor of any illegal immigrant receiving free healthcare. If someone intentionally sneaks into another country, they shouldn't have any right to that country's healthcare/education/whatever system. Free healthcare, if any, should be for legal citizens, in my opinion. Now, I'm not saying free healthcare is the best system there is - I just can see that the system in its current form is incredibly broken. Obviously nothing is truly free - someone will ultimately have to pay for healthcare services. But the government is absolutely in a position to significantly help with that.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: trollz

You don't have the right to go up to someone demand they labor for you. That's slavery.

It's not slavery if laboring for you is what that person is literally being paid to do during the normal course of their work schedule. If you go to a hospital and are seen by a nurse, that nurse is being paid to see you during her working hours. They're not calling in some other nurse who is off duty and telling her to come in and work for free.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: trollz

Name one country where the political elite are not treated better than the common person.

In American, it used to be you could work hard to earn a good life.

Vs other countries where you could never elevate to a higher class.

Vs other countries, you are out of luck if your not in the right political party/ruling class/religious class.

I'm not saying everyone is equal, because they're not by any means. But a person's wealth should not be the determining factor over whether or not they receive healthcare. Some wealthy people are unintelligent, unhealthy and have no value - their existence serves no purpose other than simply existing. Unless every citizen has access to healthcare equally, then you're forced to decide which groups of people get the right to better healthcare than others - and monetary circumstance isn't an ideal measure.
Honestly, if it was up to me, we would go by level of intellect. I don't think someone with an IQ of 75 who is destined to make a career of greeting people at the entry door of Walmart should receive the same top-notch medical care as someone who might be a geneticist or rocket scientist.

So, my point is... Our current system discriminates against certain people. Discrimination exists, we all understand that. If we can't provide equal access to healthcare, then discriminate in a way that serves a greater purpose - like increasing the IQ of the human population.


Edit: And yes, I believe eugenics is a good thing. I don't care if you call me a Nazi.

a reply to: Lumenari

I do not doubt that is what they claim..


But Obama care placed an 80/20 regulation on them..

Meaning they could only keep a 20% profit margin and had to give checks if they made more to customers..

Well I got a check every year, and they still pulled out of my state..


So seems to me20% profit wasn’t good enough for them..

a reply to: Petra137

I’m anti any industry takes a huge chunk of the profits and that doesn’t really preform a service in that field.. so it is really a parasite on a functional business..

originally posted by: JustJohnny
First off as a kinda disclaimer....


This is not some pet theory of mine.. just spitballing really..


I personally do not like even the concept of insurance ...

Not from the customer side really, but from the business model side..

See basically every insurance industry is based on NOT paying out to people who have paid in.

For example medical insurance...

Well assuming you pay your premiums your entire life, they will not even come close to the average “end of life” costs..

So if that is the case, how do they make a profit???


Easy... off denying services and people who pay in , that never take out..


So basically their business model is profiting off of people they did nothing for...

Aka a parasite..


From a religious/historical side, charging interest and having insurance was considered a hell worthy trespass for most of Christian history..



BUT MY MAIN REASON FOR THE OP...

what percentage of murders are for insurance money??

If insurance did not exist... how many people would still be alive, since there was no financial benefit for murdering them???


Now that last one is reaching for sure, but I’ve been on a true crime kick lately and the number of murders for insurance is pretty crazy.

Insurance is a financial product and absolutely a beneficial one.

The insurance company is betting you won't have a catastrophic incident and you as the consumer are betting you might.

First, insurance is for CATASTROPHIC incidents. In other words,insurance is designed to cover you in case of some unlikely, but financially expensive event occurs. For example, 100 people pay into an insurance fund each trying to protect themselves against some event. Statistically, only 1 or 2 of them may actually have the event occur. The cost of those 1 or 2 events is less than the contributions of the risk pool so the insurance company stays solvent.

We have car insurance because most people do not have the cash on hand to replace a car or worse, cover the medical bills of themselves or whoever they hit if they are at fault.

We have homeowner's insurance because most people cannot replace their home and belongings in the event of a fire, tornado, theft, etc.

We have life insurance so your family isn't having to beg on Go Fund me to pay for your funeral or worry about how they will support themselves in the event of an untimely death. I pay about $2k a year for a multi-million dollar life insurance policy and a disability policy. If I die before my time, I know at least my kids will have a couple of million to live on without me. Only an idiot does not prioritize life insurance when you are married with kids. The Iphone or whatever can wait.

All of these insurance products can be bought efficiently and cheaply.

Health insurance is a bit different because government meddling has completely fudged up the market. There is no free market to drive down prices because of over regulation. In addition, health insurance is not really insurance at all but really more of pre-paid medical services at this point.

Health insurance shoudl be covering CATASTROPHIC medical issues. You break a bone. Need an unexpected surgery. Cancer. Insurance should not be covering every little sniffle, cough, physical exam, etc. Those shoudl be paid out of pocket.

Think of it this way... how much would your car insurance cost if State Farm or whoever also had to pay for your car washes, tire rotations, oil changes, etc? To further complicate matters, you could only buy your car insurance from a handful of providers through your employer and everytime you changed jobs, you had to get a new car insurance provider with different coverage and costs. Not only that, you can't even use a cheaper or better car insurance provider in a different state. Finally, to make matters worse, even though you drive a SUV, your car insurance policy needs to cover you for motorcycles even though you don't ride one, because politicians have dictated minimum coverage for every policy even though you personally don't need it.

This is why health insurance is so screwed up.

Another point about denying claims. What people don't realize is there is a lot of insurance fraud. I mean people really have no idea. What is the first thing investigators do when looking into a murder? Start figuring out if there was a life insurance policy.

People cause car wrecks just to get an insurance claim. This is why dash cams have become so important.

I am not saying insurance companies are perfect, but you also have to look it to from their perspective as well. The general public is not as innocent as some people want to believe.

I cut through my thumb tendon a few years ago , pretty nasty wound , i was Lucky it restored for 90 %

total costs where around 10 k euros , i had to cough up 900 euros only , the rest the insurance took care of.


(Edit) until that incident i Always wondered why the heck these monthly premiums for nothing , until i actually needed it.

Looking back i was happy that during that nasty incident i didnt had to worry if i was able to afford everything , because i had enough on my mind already.

a reply to: Bluntone22

For sure people would still kill people for profit.. but how often would that not be available??

I think y'all are missing the point and the real issue entirely...

The problems with the healthcare industry isn't the insurance companies, and...

The problem with the insurance companies isn't the insurance companies.

The problem with the insurance companies AND the healthcare industry is...the civil legal system! (i.e. juries awarding massive, completely off the charts, settlements for civil lawsuits. Damage and punitive awards which are way, WAY, out of proportion to any present or future material loss. That's the problem. And why do juries award these massive damage awards??? Because they know the insurance companies will be the ones paying, and they have DEEP pockets!

Until the civil legal system is fixed to prevent these outrageously excessive damage awards nothing will change.

The insurance companies are going to immediately point to this the very second someone brings up the subject of insurance costs and or increased/excessive premiums.

And, the medical community is going to point to insurance costs the minute anyone brings up excessive healthcare costs.

There is absolutely no way you can fix the runaway costs in either of these two industries until you, through legislation, address outrageous damage awards. And, to start this discussion you can't start it with the low hanging fruit, you have to start the discussion right at the very most difficult part...how much is a life worth? This is the absolute crux of the issue.

If you don't start there, nothing will change. You have to start there because only then can you work backwards into establishing values for everything short of the upper limit. Otherwise, there is no way to contain the damages, which is exactly what we're seeing in this country right now. The United States ranks #1 in damage lawsuits world over, by orders of magnitude. This has got to STOP!

Otherwise...you might as well just suck it up. No use complaining about it, because nothing, and I mean nothing, will change!

originally posted by: Lumenari
As someone who has a wife that battled cancer for 3 years, I can give you about 1.2 million reason$ why I am just fine with it.

As someone who knows that mega-dose IV Vit C can cure almost all forms of cancer very quickly (of course it takes a series of IVs, not just one), as well as many other 'diseases', I am deeply offended by that 1.2 million figure. That is despicable.

originally posted by: Lumenari
I don't have vehicle insurance on my vehicles, I have a $50,000 bond that covers any vehicle I drive.

In Georgia, I believe the requirement is $1 million bond.

At first, when you said $50k, I thought I could actually manage that! - then I realized, the first time I got in a fender bender, I'd get sued because the other person got 'whiplash, and there goes my $50k.

Ugh...

originally posted by: Lumenari
Insurance costs are rising because someone threw pre-existing conditions into the risk pool.

and most people simply don't get that doing this completely changes the concept of 'Insurance to something else entirely. It is no longer Insurance.

Doing this is the same thing as passing a law requiring companies who sell home-owners insurance to sell an insurance policy to someone who calls them and says 'I don't have insurance now, have never needed it, but I need it now, because my house is burning down as we speak.'

No, just no. Insurance providers should never, ever be required to cover pre-existing conditions.

originally posted by: trollz
So let me get this straight... It's your human right to own a car and a house,

Yes - you and I have the Right to go out and earn the money to buy and then own these things.

But we don't have the Right to have them handed to us, free of charge.

but if you're suffering from a medical ailment, you have no right to treatment or relief.
That's some sound logic there.

Of course you have the Right to treatment/relief - you just have to pat for it, like you do the house, or the car.

If you live in a country where nobody has access to healthcare, then that sucks,

Yeah, good thing that isn't the case in America.

If you live in a country where everyone has access to the same healthcare, then that's great.

Maybe - it depends on the quality of the care.

But the problem is when whether or not you get healthcare depends on how much money you have. Something is wrong when excellent healthcare is offered to one group of citizens but another group of citizens can't even see a doctor because they can't afford it - and if they have a health emergency and go to a hospital instead of dying, they're now in debt for life.

I'm not denying the situation of a pre-existing condition that requires substantial ongoing costs to treat isn't a real problem, but polluting the Insurance pools with these people is not the solution.

The solution is simple - create a new Medicare Part E that covers people with pre-existing conditions.

So... Medicare for all? God no! Medicare for those who have a pre-existing condition and they simply cannot afford their ongoing health care costs? Ok... but...

There should also be conditions. They should be required to undertake some kind of formal health training - stop smoking, drinking sodas and eating white sugar and flour and garbage pre-packaged food like substances, and start eating real, nutritious foods.

originally posted by: trollz
I was told on the phone that just to talk to a clinician, NOT INCLUDING ANY TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR MEDICATION, but just to talk - would cost me several hundred dollars. I was given the option to set up a payment plan, or I could of course pay the entire price up front for like $100 less.

I guarantee you that that that cost did include the cost of looking at your condition and providing at least a preliminary diagnosis.

If you are going to claim otherwise, you'll have to prove it by providing the name of the clinic and their website so we can independently verify it. Otherwise it is pure BS.

I refused to pay several hundred dollars just to talk to someone, so I stayed home and hoped my eye wouldn't rot out.

So, now we know how much your eyesight is worth to you.

So, I'm sure you wouldn't scream loudly about how everyone else needs to pay for your $50,000 emergency room bill when you go there months later and they have to operate to save your brain from the massive infection that resulted from your decision not to treat your eye when it was a simple and easily treatable infection.

Imagine all the American citizens who can't afford to simply see a doctor.

So, you're saying you couldn't afford a few hundred dollars?

Maybe you should move to a socialist country where they will feel sorry for you.

originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
There is absolutely no way you can fix the runaway costs in either of these two industries until you, through legislation, address outrageous damage awards. And, to start this discussion you can't start it with the low hanging fruit, you have to start the discussion right at the very most difficult part...how much is a life worth? This is the absolute crux of the issue.

If you don't start there, nothing will change. You have to start there because only then can you work backwards into establishing values for everything short of the upper limit. Otherwise, there is no way to contain the damages, which is exactly what we're seeing in this country right now. The United States ranks #1 in damage lawsuits world over, by orders of magnitude. This has got to STOP!

Otherwise...you might as well just suck it up. No use complaining about it, because nothing, and I mean nothing, will change!

I understand what you are saying, but to clarify...

Surely you aren't saying that doctors and/or hospitals shouldn't be held responsible for someones death or permanent disability when it is due to some negligent action by someone at the hospital or the doctor?

Surely you aren't saying that if I'm in an accident and some idiot at the hospital didn't read my chart and gave me something that I was allergic to and I died, that they shouldn't be held financially responsible? My wife and children no longer have a husband/father/provider - so, surely you aren't saying they should just 'suck it up'?