Miss Michigan won't wear a hijab lost her crown

a reply to: Oleandra88

M'kay....let's see if I get your point. You say:

"It is just as radical to try to force people to do that(trying that booth) via guilt or social pressure as it is to force women to wear a hijab. Because it is the very same mechanism that is used to keep that status quo alive in the countries that enforce this rule because of "group think" and social/religious pressure. 

In religious dominated countries, social and religious pressure is on the same vector because in those countries, social life is an intrinsic property of the religous ruled lifestyle"

Can I put this in Mickey Mouse terms for myself?

You state that a "try a hijab booth" (in America) is a way of forcing (American) people (through social pressure or guilt) to wear a hijab and is equal to how some countries force women to wear a hijab...

The "preceived" social pressure or guilt from a "try a hijab booth" is in fact the same method used by countries who force the wearing of hijabs as this is also based on social/religious pressure.

Then you explain a bit on how in religious dominated countries social and religious pressure are the same...

Maybe you need to explain to me again what exacly the dangers of a "try a hijab booth" are because I must be missing the point.

Peace

a reply to: operation mindcrime

No, I am not saying that at all. totally of track. Please delete your pre-asumptions about me and restart reading if you really want to understand or discuss with me. And not arguing for the sake of arguing and calling me "mrs smartypants" and such okay?

Because that makes you look like a rude person.

a "try a hijab booth" (in America) is a way of forcing (American) people (through social pressure or guilt) to wear a hijab and is equal to how some countries force women to wear a hijab...

I am saying belitteling, shaming, trying to install guilt and or shaming one for rejecting the idea of such a booth or outright refuse to try it is the same mechanism that is used in religious dominated countries (religious/social pressure to accept or reject something like the rest of the flock.

I put the emphasis there because the sentence got a bit long.

Yeah OperationMindcrime, you missed the point big time, from the very beginning!
Again, it is not the booth itself but people that belittle others for their decision NOT to try that.

And I really have no interest in discussing or arguing with you further. It is kind of dreading, repeating myself.

Have a nice day anyways.

Let me help you guys

Islam =/= America

You're Welcome

a reply to: Oleandra88

Hihi....you're funny when you are mad.

If you keep changing what you are trying to say this is going to become a long argument but what the heck...I got all night.

So now you are saying:

"belitteling, shaming, trying to install guilt and or shaming one for rejecting the idea of such a booth or outright refuse to try it is the same mechanism that is used in religious dominated countries"

I'll keep it short....where is former miss whatever belittled, shamed, installed with guilt?

Peace

a reply to: operation mindcrime

I was and still am not trying to change it, I tried to make it more clear to you by throwing in as much terms I could come up with that I connect to that.

You know what? I will write it off as a communication issue because if my #ty english okay? You will not get what my point is and I am tired repeating.

There has been a documentation about several muslim women in my country. Some came here from UAE, one converted to Islam. The one that fled the UAE could not understand the women that embraced Islam. A year later, the converty was on air again with a totally different opinion.

If you really want I can search for the documentation, it will not be in English but maybe I find a written summary that I can translate/you can translate yourself if you do not trust me.

A documentation about women who fled from the UAE to Germany to be free again. One said with tears in her eyes, she said it was the most freeing moment in her life when she could feel the direct air on her skin in Munich.

That is what women say who do NOT have the choice, regardless what you think you know about that culture. Have you even been to one of those countries with a majority of muslims? What do you really know about the culture from first hand experience?

a reply to: Oleandra88

First up, I'd be glad to see the documentation and my English, French, Dutch and German are perfect so if it's in any of those languages that won't be a problem.

Secondly, I am as blond hair, blue eyed as they come but I travel a lot and have seen and spoken with many cultures so my experience with women who wear a hijab is very mixed.

I know a lot of women who are forced to wear one, I know women who are not allowed to leave the house, I know about all the other atrocities that happen to women who are oppressed but.....

On the other side of the spectrum you have women who practice their religion in freedom and are not oppressed or forced and still choose to wear a hijab.

If you want to change the world change the things that should be changed. Banning the hijab does not seem like the best way of getting things done.

Peace

a reply to: operation mindcrime
Perfect, it is in German. I will now look for the documentation. Also I never said I want to ban hijabs. Most of what you think about me, I did not write.

I do not have Muslim friends (as in, real friends) but I have been around a bit. I know a Syrian family that came here when I was very young, I think mid 90s. They are Muslims but they are total different from the Muslims I have met in Egypt on vacations/part of some tests. They were all friendly and nice to me but I also tried to adapt to their culture when I was there, after I was told how they think about naked skin in public (in general, it is not only the women). I always weared long throusers and long sleeved, closed tops. I could have joined them with some meals but I had the taxi already aranged via the board radio an hour before we arrived the harbor. I declined and my uncle went alone with them. I am not an hijab-o-phobe but I got the impression you think that.

Just write that to let you know I am aware of all this.

Off now to search for the documentation. I will do a nother post so you get a notify.

I wish I would have found it by now, I spent 20 minutes now and did not find it. Only a few minutes ago I found out the name of one of the three Muslima who spoke. Carla Amina Baghajati. I remember her attitude towards the Muslima from UAE and I remember how the women from UAE was kind of mortified by Carlas behavior.

I know it has several parts, it was aired over several evenings on one of the more popular TV channels. Also, I need to add, this discussion was not only about hijabs but burkas, too. It was around two years ago, in summer. I can tell you how the furniture was standing, where I was sitting and so on but I struggle to get the name of the tv show.

The logos color sheme was clay brown / dark beige with a rectangly shape in a perspective view.

If I just could find the women who fled from UAE but this could be because she feared retaliation back then. I have synesthesia, eventually I will find the info I am looking for, just give me a bit time please.

a reply to: Oleandra88

No worries I got all the time in the world...

On the subject of nijab vs burka...it does make a world of difference. There aren't many women I know who would wear a burka out of free will.

Peace

This is the women who fled:

www.jetzt.de...

A quick google translation for those who do not speak my language:

Rana Ahmad, 32, grew up in Saudi Arabia and was raised in a strictly Muslim way. Like all women in Saudi Arabia, she had to wear full veiling. Through family and religious police, she experienced oppression and sexual assault. When she began questioning Islam at the age of 26, her life changed radically. Because of the death penalty for atheism in Saudi Arabia, Rana fled to Germany in 2015 via Turkey, Greece and the Balkan route.

She has written a book about her moving story. "Women are not allowed to dream here" will be published on 15.01. in the btb publishing house. now: On the 19th of May 2015 you were standing at Istanbul airport - and you managed to escape. How did you feel? Rana Ahmad: I left the airport without my body veil and felt the sun on my body. I removed the niqab (the Muslim face veil, editor's note). I could enjoy the weather. I could laugh. I could dance and be crazy. I said to myself, "You did it, you did it, you did it!" It's something you can not imagine.

In Saudi Arabia, as a woman, you are a second-class person - and suddenly you are free. When did you realize that women in Saudi Arabia have less rights and freedom. That was at the age of 14 or 15 years. If my brother wanted to go outside with a friend, he simply asked my father. If I wanted to do something like that, I asked my mother and she either said no, wanted to go with me or say that my friends would have to come to our house.

In Saudi Arabia women are considered to be less valuable than men and impure. What did that do to you? When I first had my period, I asked my mother why I should not pray now. Then she said, "Because you are not pure and God will not accept you." I thought, "#! That's my God who created me and he does not find me in. "I felt bad. What would you have threatened if you had done something forbidden? First of all, as a woman you always accuse yourself when you have done something that is haram (forbidden in the sense of Sharia, editor's note).

For example, women also believe that it is their fault if they are raped or harassed. In case of misconduct one is sometimes beaten by his family. Sometimes they do not let you out of the house or give you any more money for the school. You write in your book that sexual assault in Saudi Arabia is extremely common. Why is that? If you separate women and men strictly from an early age, if there is no legitimate sexual freedom, and if you do not teach any sexual education, then it is quite clear how such a society works in terms of sexual matters. Many girls are abused or abused by their father, brother, or other family members.

I give up for today, but I kind of kept my unspoken promise and got you two of the three names for you to dig into.

Again, my original message was that everyone should be fine not wanting to try out a hijab booth. Because if those are socially pressured and questioned as racist, islamophobe or close minded *insert any peer pressure thing*, it empowers the same mechanisms that kept women like Rana Ahmad in their own personal hell.

And then you have Muslimas like Carla who was born in Germany, never had to live in such conditions or endure the physical and psychologic torture like Rana Ahmad did, trying to find a sentence from Rana that she can use to show all her pain in a good light.

Please understand that I can not eat as much as I I could puke because of this disgusting behavior.

"I can not eat as much as I want to puke." Max Liebermann - while watching the torchlight procession to Adolf Hitler's takeover on January 30, 1933"

This is how I felt when I saw Carla talking down Rana Ahmads story.