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Paradise or heaven - Where do we go when we die.

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posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:05 PM
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originally posted by: PhilbertDezineck

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: BrianFlanders

That is a pagan belief

We have a spirit within our body.

Death is the body, the spirit lives on.

You will be shocked once you die. Which I hope is when you are old.




What happens to the soul? We are a triune creation Spirit, Soul, and Body according to Jesus and Paul.

Eisegesis is never very convincing if one doesn't even quote or refer more specifically to the texts they are misinterpreting. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Eisegesis is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text. Definition from Merriam-Webster: "the interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one's own ideas."

I have a general idea which texts you are doing that with, or the person(s) who told or taught you what you just said about us being a "triune creation", and they don't teach what you are describing (or the way you chose to phrase that).

I guess it could be a motive for not actually quoting them, although it seems more force of habit (possibly subtly conditioned). Especially with it perhaps becoming slightly off-topic, which I guess could be used to justify that habit or pattern of behaviour of not supporting one's statements about biblical concepts with actual quotations, not really elaborating on the claims and statements. Or saying Biblical characters are teaching something but not even referring to the Bible texts where they supposedly teach such things (without a need to actually quote them so people can look them up for themselves).
edit on 31-7-2019 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 31 2019 @ 02:50 PM
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originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Klassified

Your general statement and poor attempt to generalize and put all Christians into one pot shows your hypocrisy.

Your antichrist statements now and in the past show a clear antichrist spirit.

...There's a reason there are so many denominations, and it usually boils down to interpretation, which goes right back to what i said. As Travis Walton put it...
"I've come to realize that the biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are compulsively filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true."


originally posted by: whereislogic
So, does that count for you as well then? That last description and what you end up making of the reality that there are so many denominations? Cause some people see it as evidence for every thing the Bible says about counterfeit versions of Christianity, false religion (Babylon the Great*) and its spiritual father, Satan.

Also keep in mind Satan's tactic of divide and conquer, which works better with more denominations and more religions. There's something for every sort of person to be attracted to or fall for, every sort of false idea or doctrine is promoted. Best way to trick as many people as possible into believing at least something that is a lie. It's a wilderness of ideas and teachings outside of true Christianity for people to get lost in and running around in circles chasing their own tails, and tales/myths for that matter (for a little play on words); see also 2 Timothy 4:3,4.
edit on 31-7-2019 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 1 2019 @ 04:29 AM
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originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
a reply to: Klassified

Your general statement and poor attempt to generalize and put all Christians into one pot shows your hypocrisy.

Your antichrist statements now and in the past show a clear antichrist spirit.

...There's a reason there are so many denominations, and it usually boils down to interpretation, which goes right back to what i said. As Travis Walton put it...
"I've come to realize that the biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are compulsively filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true."


originally posted by: whereislogic
So, does that count for you as well then? That last description and what you end up making of the reality that there are so many denominations? Cause some people see it as evidence for every thing the Bible says about counterfeit versions of Christianity, false religion (Babylon the Great*) and its spiritual father, Satan.


originally posted by: whereislogic
Also keep in mind Satan's tactic of divide and conquer, which works better with more denominations and more religions. There's something for every sort of person to be attracted to or fall for, every sort of false idea or doctrine is promoted. Best way to trick as many people as possible into believing at least something that is a lie. It's a wilderness of ideas and teachings outside of true Christianity for people to get lost in and running around in circles chasing their own tails, and tales/myths for that matter (for a little play on words); see also 2 Timothy 4:3,4.

I forgot to elaborate on that term "wilderness" that I used at the end there and how that ties in to the earlier term "Babylon the Great" (hence the reason I felt I needed to quote the whole thing again, sorry if it's a bit repetitive). This is the wilderness I was talking about, from Revelation 17:

3 And he carried me away in the power of the spirit into a wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored wild beast that was full of blasphemous names and that had seven heads and ten horns.
...
5 On her forehead was written a name, a mystery: “Babylon the Great, the mother of the prostitutes and of the disgusting things of the earth.”


Notice that both the wild beast and its rider, a woman, Babylon the Great (for short), are operating within this wilderness.



posted on Aug, 3 2019 @ 12:32 PM
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a reply to: whereislogic


Paradise moved to the common grave of mankind, described in the Bible as a symbolic place or condition wherein all activity and consciousness has ceased*?

No, nothing of the sort is implied by me. You may believe that Sheol is a symbolic place of unconsciousness but that is not what the KJV NT scriptures teach. Luke very plainly explains the location of Sheol and the activity that has taken place in that realm of death. The spirits of the dead souls are very much conscious and active as they are today according to the NT scriptures.

The spirit of a soul is never asleep as is in unconsciousness. Unconsciousness applies only to the brain of the terrestrial body and not to the mind/spirit. The mind is never asleep and is never of the same substance as the brain. The mind/spirit is the transformer to the brain which controls the receptors of the terrestrial body. In death of the terrestrial body the receptors of the brain are destroyed simply because they are of the earth. The body returns to its source of earth and the mind returns to its source of spirituality.

Paradise is referenced three times in the KJV bible and all three times it is referenced, it pertains to the spiritual substance of creation. As it was moved from Gan Eden it was found to be in Sheol and known as Abraham's Bosom. After the first resurrection of the Adamic seed from Sheol to the kingdom of heaven it is now located in New Jerusalem of the third heaven and known as the kingdom of heaven.

Now learn a mystery of the ancients if you are interested. If not then throw it in the trash at your own loss. The reason that paradise was moved twice since Adam was banned from the Gan Eden is because the tree of life was and now is located in Gan Eden. All spiritual bodies must be fed from the tree of life for everlasting life and it is for that reason that the justified spiritual body must be nourished from the tree of life. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of life till it was taken from them. As the justified of the procreated creation died their spiritual bodies must be fed from the tree of life. As the kingdom of heaven was given and the justified were taken from Sheol to New Jerusalem, they too must be fed from the same tree of life. As you can now understand that is why paradise was moved to feed the justified celestial bodies the food of eternal life.

What was another reason in moving the justified from the terrestrial Sheol to the celestial New Jerusalem? Because eventually the terrestrial creation will vaporize into nothing from wince it was created. Even those in Hell will be removed and cast into another realm in the last day. To spare the justified spirits of being imprisoned, they were moved into the New Jerusalem which is detailed in Revelation.

You error in thinking that Jesus was spiritually unconscious.



posted on Aug, 3 2019 @ 05:29 PM
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a reply to: Seede


The reason that paradise was moved twice since Adam was banned from the Gan Eden is because the tree of life was and now is located in Gan Eden. All spiritual bodies must be fed from the tree of life for everlasting life and it is for that reason that the justified spiritual body must be nourished from the tree of life.


How long was the tree of life in the garden of eden after Adam and Eve were expelled?

Apparently it remained while the two Cherubs guarded the entrance to the place.

Do you believe it the original tree of life was uprooted or destroyed right before the deluge?

How does a earthly/phyical tree exist in a spiritual realm?

I am interested in your thoughts Seede.



posted on Aug, 5 2019 @ 01:21 PM
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a reply to: lostinspace


How long was the tree of life in the garden of eden after Adam and Eve were expelled? Apparently it remained while the two Cherubs guarded the entrance to the place. Do you believe it the original tree of life was uprooted or destroyed right before the deluge? How does a earthly/phyical tree exist in a spiritual realm?Text

According to the writings of Ezra Reviy'iy [4 Ezra] which is not a canonized literature but is an accepted Hebrew literature, we learn of this which is not included in written Torah. The Cepher Adam v'Chuah R'ishon is from the oldest rendition known today and is of Ethiopian origin. It was on the third day [era] of creation that the Creator's "Word" planted Gan Eden in the east of the earth and on the border of this world eastward beyond which towards the sun rising was nothing but the water of which no end could be seen.

That is not to say that Adam was created at this time because the scriptures tell us that it was another six days [eras] of creation before Adam was created. At this time of creation the earth was good and in all purity with no corruption. That is not to say that Gan Eden was of this earth because Gan Eden was a paradise of independent substance of which was not given to any creation till the day Adam was brought forth of this earth. Adam was formed from the purity of this earth but not of the substance of Gan Eden. Gan Eden is of spiritual substance whereas the earth is of created substance.

The entire creation of this universe was neither known as terrestrial or celestial till sin entered its gates. This creation was a creation of purity equal to what we understand as heavenly. Evil was not created in these eras of producing this universe and this creation was not designed to be everlasting knowing [by the Creator] that it would eventually become corrupt. Gan Eden was planted upon this earth but not of this earth and Gan Eden was of an everlasting substance.

Adam was formed from this earth which, at the time he was formed, was as pure as Gan Eden. The foreknowledge of God was the reason that God planted Gan Eden. This entire universe was now aging except for the garden which God planted for Adam. Secular science [from NASA] states that as the world was first put into motion, one rotation of this world was but four of our twenty four hour understanding today. This means that the world rotated six times faster in its infancy then it does now. This means that the world will one day stop rotating and time will cease to exist.

As God then placed Adam in Gan Eden, Adam was to remain ageless and separated from the earth as long as he remained in the shelter of Gan Eden. To remain ageless it was necessary for Adam to exist in this ageless environment. At this time it was not because of evil that Adam was placed in the garden, it was to keep him ageless and not age as the universe was designed. Sin had not as yet been instituted to the minds of man and wife or in this ageless garden.

After evil was created and became knowledgeable, instilled into the minds of both man and wife and the act of transgression became a reality was when earth was declared no longer pure. Adam was earth and was given charge of all earth and in so being awarded this responsibility and being earth he was charged and sentenced with death. Adam was not the only portion of earth that was charged. All earth was charged and all earth must perish. This included the entire universe and all that is in this universe because the entire creation was earth. Therefore all earth must perish.

Death cannot associate itself with life. Gan Eden is life and cannot associate itself with death. Death is the opposite of life and only one can prevail as reality. As the result of this transgression became clear, it showed Moses that we are procreated earth beings but that the Creator in His wisdom created Adam in two parts and not as one part. This exposed not only wisdom but love from the Creator. Only one death applies to each portion of creation. One death for earth and one death for spirit. As the earth must perish, the Spirit can become justified.

As Adam and wife were evicted from the Gan Eden and being that the earth must perish, changed their substance from that of purity to that of evil. The trees of life and the environment of purity were no longer their existence. In this we are told, by Ezra, that Adam and Chuah became sick and near death and that the covering of light was taken from their bodies. In place of this covering of light they were given seven coats of skin of which we also have today in our procreation. So in effect Adam was formed, placed in Gan Eden, and finished as a terrestrial creation. After the curse was instilled in Adam and Chuah this world became terrestrial and after leaving Gan Eden Adam and Chuah became terrestrial.

From that time that death was instilled in earth and the creation must perish is when the Spirits of the procreation would be contained in Sheol. Gan Eden, being of Spirit, ministered to the justified dead of Sheol and became known as paradise.
As the Christ released the justified from Sheol, He also took paradise from Sheol to His kingdom of heaven where it is now in His New Jerusalem.
While it is of our teachings that man was created in the image of God, It is the last Adam that is meant and not the first.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.



posted on Aug, 5 2019 @ 10:47 PM
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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: whereislogic

Luke very plainly explains the location of Sheol and the activity that has taken place in that realm of death. The spirits of the dead souls are very much conscious and active as they are today according to the NT scriptures.


originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: PhilbertDezineck

Eisegesis is never very convincing if one doesn't even quote or refer more specifically to the texts they are misinterpreting.
...
I have a general idea which texts you are doing that with, or the person(s) who told or taught you what you just said about ["the location of Sheol and the activity that has taken place in that realm of death" and "the spirits of the dead souls are very much conscious and active as they are today according to the NT scriptures"], and they don't teach what you are describing (or the way you chose to phrase that). [Nor do they contradict or negate the Bible teachings that I already quoted about the dead. Such as Eccl.9:5, 10: “For the living know* [Or “are conscious.”] that they will die, but the dead know* [Or “are conscious of.”] nothing at all”, “for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave,* [Or “Sheol,” that is, the common grave of mankind. See Glossary.] where you are going.”]

I guess it could be a motive for not actually quoting them, although it seems more force of habit (possibly subtly conditioned). ...

Made some minor adjustments in my response to PhilbertDezineck, the rest counts pretty much the same, because the behavioural pattern is the same. If you were to quote the texts you are talking about, or refer to them by chapter and verse number, I could respond to them more specifically. That's not to say that I will, cause as I mentioned above, they do not contradict or negate the clear/unambiguous statement at Eccl.9:5 that the dead "are conscious of nothing at all", which clearly already contradicts your statement that the dead ("dead souls") are conscious and active. You are just teaching the same philosophy/idea and doctrine about death that the Babylonian theologians were teaching and promoting: “Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556. I.e. "death" isn't really "death" (Satan: "You certainly will not die" at Genesis 3:4), just like Stephen Hawking's, Richard Dawkins' and Lawrence Krauss' usage of the word "nothing", where "nothing" isn't really "nothing" anymore.

1 Timothy 6:20

Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge.”

I guess it's convenient when promoting or expressing one's eisegesis to just completely ignore the Bible texts that directly contradict it (such as Eccl.9:5,10 in this case), pretend they don't even exist or weren't quoted as if they do not require a response as to why it's perfectly fine for you to directly contradict them without even quoting a text that supposedly (in your eyes) teaches the opposite of what those texts teach about the dead (or the supposed "spirits of the dead souls" as you put it).

Death

Definition: The ceasing of all functions of life. After breathing, heartbeat, and brain activity stop, the life-force gradually ceases to function in body cells. Death is the opposite of life.

Is there a spirit part of man that survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (RS, NE, KJ, and Dy all render the Hebrew word neʹphesh in this verse as “soul,” thus saying that it is the soul that dies. Some translations that render neʹphesh as “soul” in other passages use the expression “the man” or “the one” in this verse. So, the neʹphesh, the soul, is the person, not an immaterial part of him that survives when his body dies.) Details about the word “Soul”.

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ruʹach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that ruʹach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.)

Eccl. 3:19-21: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the man over the beast, for everything is vanity. All are going to one place. They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all returning to the dust. Who is there knowing the spirit of the sons of mankind, whether it is ascending upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending downward to the earth?” (Because of the inheritance of sin and death from Adam, humans all die and return to the dust, as animals do. But does each human have a spirit that goes on living as an intelligent personality after it ceases to function in the body? No; verse 19 answers that humans and beasts “all have but one spirit.” Based merely on human observation, no one can authoritatively answer the question raised in verse 21 regarding the spirit. But God’s Word answers that there is nothing that humans have as a result of birth that gives them superiority over beasts when they die. However, because of God’s merciful provision through Christ, the prospect of living forever has been opened up to humans who exercise faith, but not to animals. For many of mankind, that will be made possible by resurrection, when active life-force from God will invigorate them again.)

Luke 23:46: “Jesus called with a loud voice and said: ‘Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit [Greek, pneuʹmaʹ].’ When he had said this, he expired.” (Notice that Jesus expired. When his spirit went out he was not on his way to heaven (see also the Bible texts quoted in the video I linked earlier called "Why do we die? ..." for further evidence from the Bible that this is true, when discussing Luke 23:43). Not until the third day from this was Jesus resurrected from the dead. Then, as Acts 1:3, 9 shows, it was 40 more days before he ascended to heaven. So, what is the meaning of what Jesus said at the time of his death? He was saying that he knew that, when he died, his future life prospects rested entirely with God.

Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, ruʹach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Notice that the Hebrew word for spirit is ruʹach; but the word translated soul is neʹphesh. The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render ruʹach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”)

Spirit

Definition: The Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek pneuʹma, which are often translated “spirit,” have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and that causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired utterances originating with an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s active force, or holy spirit.
edit on 5-8-2019 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 5 2019 @ 10:56 PM
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when alive thoughts quickly turn to fantasy land, yeah I'll go to a fantasy land that blows away with the arrival of death I suppose, doubt I'll see anything in the presence of nothing.



posted on Aug, 6 2019 @ 12:20 AM
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a reply to: Seede

Have you ever heard the expression:

"I think, therefore I am." (Cogito, ergo sum is a Latin philosophical proposition by René Descartes)

When speaking about existence. The inverse or reverse would then imply that if I don't think, or no longer have any thoughts, I am not, i.e. I no longer exist. With that in mind, let's highlight one of the Bible texts I quoted in my previous comment regarding "death", the opposite of life rather than "a passage to another kind of life" (contradiction alert!) as the Babylonian theologians taught and the majority of modern-day influential figures in Babylon the Great teaches, promotes or believes nowadays and as you have expressed and argued for:

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (The Hebrew word here translated “spirit” is a derivative of ruʹach. Some translators render it “breath.” When that ruʹach, or active life-force, leaves the body, the person’s thoughts perish; they do not continue in another realm.)

When you die, your thoughts perish, you cease to exist. That is the plain teaching of the Bible, God's very own words about the subject.

Satan and Babylon the Great says: 'you don't really die, the real you including your thoughts, emotions, etc., keeps on living in another form; death isn't really death, the opposite of life, but a passage to another kind of life; so death = life' (a blatant contradiction akin to 'nothing = something', or 'The Son is God, The Father is God, The Holy Spirit is God, yet these are not 3 Gods but 1 God'; although the last one is more subtle, tricky and cunning, not as blatant)

Whose teachings do you wanna follow or trust about it? (a self-reflective and rhetorical question for anyone here; no answer needed cause the answer is already given in the beliefs/opinions/ideas one expresses regarding death and the notion of an afterlife. It therefore becomes obvious where one's allegiances and trust currently lie, or spiritual source of information)

Context for the video above:

The End of False Religion/Babylon the Great is near!
edit on 6-8-2019 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 6 2019 @ 01:26 PM
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a reply to: whereislogic

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

I do agree with that scripture. Moses’ book confirms this as in Genesis 1:26 as it is written. “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.“ --

God formed man from earth substance and man was formed in the image of God’s “Word”. But after sin came into man and man was cursed, man’s likeness to the Creator ceased. To believe otherwise would be as to say God’s likeness became evil.

Psalms 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

I also agree with Psalms 146:4 - The breath/Ru’ach is explained as in Gen 2:7 - “And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

As physicality ceases to function and the brain’s sensors are damaged, all thoughts/brain activity in physicality do cease. But the mind/Ru’ach is that source of energy which transmits to the brain and is not damaged. The two are two independent sources of substance with two distinct purposes of existence of a soul/body. My sources are both biblical and medical as you can understand. To be clear is to say the brain is earth and does cease to function but the mind is spirit and does not cease to exist.




Not until the third day from this was Jesus resurrected from the dead. Then, as Acts 1:3, 9 shows, it was 40 more days before he ascended to heaven. So, what is the meaning of what Jesus said at the time of his death? He was saying that he knew that, when he died, his future life prospects rested entirely with God.


Was Jesus in the tomb three days and three nights? How could you know this when the tomb was sealed with a seal and temple guards placed on 72 hours watch?

Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Luke 23:42-43
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus being in the tomb three days and three nights would not allow Him time enough to also be in Sheol three days and three nights.

Eph 4:9-10
(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Psa_68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Your understanding of scriptures are not as the doctrine of James teaches.

edit on 6-8-2019 by Seede because: Add reply



posted on Aug, 7 2019 @ 12:50 PM
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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: whereislogic

As physicality ceases to function and the brain’s sensors are damaged, all thoughts/brain activity in physicality do cease. But the mind/Ru’ach is that source of energy which transmits to the brain and is not damaged. The two are two independent sources of substance with two distinct purposes of existence of a soul/body. My sources are both biblical and medical as you can understand. To be clear is to say the brain is earth and does cease to function but the mind is spirit and does not cease to exist.

Too bad that you couldn't support any of those ancient Pagan Babylonian, Egyptian and Greek ideas (the bolded parts) with a clear and unambiguous text from the Bible, warranting the claim that your source for these ideas is biblical. I have a feeling the problem lies in the fact that it clearly states that when you die your thoughts do perish. No caveats added such as "but the mind is spirit and does not cease to exist" (i.e. the mind and its thoughts remain, the exact opposite of what the Bible actually says happens when you die) or anything like that (without requiring some serious eisegesis first and conveniently ignoring that it would contradict what it actually says and spells out for ye, unambiguously, not allowing for an interpretation that tries to fit it into an idea that expresses the exact opposite, that your thoughts do not perish, obscuring that it's the opposite by talking about "your mind" instead of "your thoughts", for those who do not notice the implication I just spelled out in the phrase "the mind and its thoughts remain"; which is the more accurate and detailed description of what you are arguing for and to demonstrate better how it contradicts Ps 146:4 where it's speaking about "his thoughts do perish").

Btw, ru'ach doesn't mean "mind" and "soul" doesn't mean "body" (conflation is the treatment of two different concepts as one. For example: "Comparing apples to oranges". As mentioned in the list for fallacies of ambiguity on the Conservapedia webpage for "Logical fallacy"*). Ru'ach as used in the texts I was quoting from refers to the "spirit/active lifeforce" that allows a person to be alive as opposed to being dead. When a person dies, that spirit/active lifeforce "goes out" (Ps 146:4) of that person, and their minds, including their thoughts, "perish", i.e. cease to exist; just like the person ceases to exist. Otherwise, they wouldn't be appropiately referred to as being dead (after all "the dead are conscious of nothing at all" as Eccl. 9:5 puts it). If their minds continue to exist, they are technically still alive (as I heard a televangelist call it: "the real you" keeps on living and existing; when talking about the soul as the spirit part of man that continues its existence after the death of the physical body, i.e. your mind continues to exist as you put it, swapping out "soul" for "spirit/mind" doesn't really change the essence of that Pagan philosophy, developped further and further starting in Babylon, and spreading to Egypt, Greece and Persia, and from there across the world, especially once Plato started promoting it and his popularity grew amongst ancient philosophers and theologians).

*:

... This communications revolution has led to information overload, as people are inundated by countless messages from every quarter. Many respond to this pressure by absorbing messages more quickly and accepting them without questioning or analyzing them.

The cunning propagandist loves such shortcuts—especially those that short-circuit rational thought. Propaganda encourages this by agitating the emotions, by exploiting insecurities, by capitalizing on the ambiguity of language, and by bending rules of logic. As history bears out, such tactics can prove all too effective.
...

Source: The Manipulation of Information: Awake!—2000

Not that medical sources really matter in this situation, but I think the majority of those working in health care, especially in medical research, would not claim the same things you claimed, in particular about "two independent sources of substance with two distinct purposes of existence of a soul/body" and that after death the mind (and by implication its thoughts) does not cease to exist. And those who would claim such things would probably indicate their statements have more to do with their religious beliefs rather than the science, scientific data or conclusions from experiments. Of course, I can imagine there being exceptions, that even manage to get articles published about it in well respected supposedly "scientific" magazines. But like I said, it doesn't matter when one claims they got it from the Bible or that it's taught in the Bible. Especially if it's shown that the Bible teaches the exact opposite, that when you die, your thoughts (by implication, your mind*) dies or perishes with you (as a person), as I've shown and demonstrated quite clearly/unambiguously. *: also when considering that the dead are not conscious and have no knowledge and no wisdom as mentioned at Eccl. 9:5,10. Neither is there any "planning" going on in "the Grave"/Sheol/the common grave of mankind, where you are going when you die (verse 10). So the dead also do not 'plan', which would require foresight which in turn requires knowledge and being conscious of at least something, not "nothing at all" (verse 5), so that makes perfect sense. No interpretations or eisegesis required, just taking the biblical texts at face value. It's so clear and straightforward, that it's not really open to interpretation as people use that expression (of course, technically one can still do it as you're doing, and it's done a lot, but to some people it's immediately clear what's going on here, to these people, it's not open to personal interpretation, it's not as ambiguous as some people try to make it to hide or ignore that they are contradicting the plain teachings of the Bible with their erronuous interpretations to somehow fit it in to what they want to believe about it, or just blatantly ignore what it says and switch to another text, pretend the text poses no issue for what they're arguing for, for example; restating their original claims, perhaps slightly rephrased to make it less obvious again that they are directly contradicting the text they are supposedly 'responding' to).
edit on 7-8-2019 by whereislogic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 8 2019 @ 11:37 AM
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a reply to: whereislogic


I have a feeling the problem lies in the fact that it clearly states that when you die your thoughts do perish.

Genesis_2:7 tells us - "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Before God gave man a spirit of life he was an unconscious soul without life but he was still a soul.

Strong's Number H5315 matches the Hebrew נֶפֶשׁ (nephesh),
which occurs 753 times in 683 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

Yes as the Nephesh/H5315 dies and loses all consciousness the thoughts of the terrestrial brain do perish in this terrestrial realm.

[note that H5315/Nephesh is not Ru'ach.] ----

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. H5315

1Corinthians 15:42-49
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

As the soul/Nephesh dies it is the Spirit/Ru'ach that returns to God and given a spiritual body but it returns to God in the kingdom of heaven which is the third heaven of our understanding. Read the chapters 21 and 22 of Revelation to understand. Now if you subscribe to the Judaic resurrection, you will not understand Jesus' resurrections as He has given to His sheep in His Revelation to John. As Solomon authored Ecclesiastes there was no kingdom of heaven or Spiritual body as yet offered to our creation just as Luke has shown us. Even though this is true the Spirits/Minds of of the dead souls did have consciousness.

Hebrews 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

It is not the Soul/Brain or Nephesh that is judged because it has ceased to function but it is the Spirit/Mind or Ru'ach that stands in judgment. This is all biblical as taught by the brother of Jesus and is not of the Sumerian/ Babylonian teachings.
The grave is a Hebrew concept of the soul that has perished before the concept of Sheol was taught and is the doctrine of ancients who fed and watered their dead. As Jesus taught His doctrine to Luke, the Judaic doctrine was gradually abandoned by the Nazarene's.

It seems to me you are very confused in trying to mix two distinct covenants and doctrines of different cultures into one thought. You are not dividing the word of God accurately. The Judaic theology is but one general resurrection while Jesus' doctrine is three resurrections with one accumpolished and two more to be accumpolished.



posted on Aug, 8 2019 @ 07:19 PM
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a reply to: Seede

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I appreciate the effort you made to enlighten me.

You could say the garden of eden was heaven on earth. If that statement is true, then the animals were invited to heaven briefly when Adam was instructed to name all of the different kinds of species.

On a different note. You mentioned a scripture earlier in a post of yours that mentioned Jesus being in the heart of the earth for 3 days after he was killed. What is your take on why the scripture mentioned "the heart of earth"? Does Sheol reside at the center of the planet or in the earth's core? Everyone knew Jesus was in a tomb in the rockface near the surface of the earth. Why say in the heart of planet earth?



posted on Aug, 11 2019 @ 10:22 AM
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a reply to: lostinspace


You could say the garden of eden was heaven on earth. If that statement is true, then the animals were invited to heaven briefly when Adam was instructed to name all of the different kinds of species.

There is a tradition that says Adam was but an hour old when he gave names to those creatures of both land and air. This was before being placed in Gan Eden according to L. Ginzberg of Legends Of The Jews. If true then the names of beasts and fowl were given out side of Gan Eden.



[On a different note. You mentioned a scripture earlier in a post of yours that mentioned Jesus being in the heart of the earth for 3 days after he was killed. What is your take on why the scripture mentioned "the heart of earth"? Does Sheol reside at the center of the planet or in the earth's core? Everyone knew Jesus was in a tomb in the rockface near the surface of the earth. Why say in the heart of planet earth?]Text

The prophecy concerning Jesus was said by Jesus in Matthew.

Matthew 12:39-40
But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So in effect the people wanted proof that He [Jesus] was who He said He was and that these things that He has done were done from the Father of Abraham and not Satan.
Because of their disbelief, Jesus told them that they would not get that proof till He [Jesus] was dead for three days and three nights and then reappear whole and unscathed once again just as Jonah was dead and reappeared.

Jesus did die on that fourteenth day of the Jewish month of Nisan, at about three pm in that Wednesday afternoon. The new day would start in about three more hours at about six pm. Jesus would be assumed dead twenty four hours of Thursday, twenty four hours Friday and twenty four hours Saturday the regular Sabbath.

The Nazarene [James The Just and brother of Jesus] teaches us that it was during those three hours of the 14th day of Nisan that the earth shook and opened the path for His descent into Sheol. Jesus had resurrected during those three hours of that Wednesday after being placed into the tomb of His uncle Joseph and His disciple Nicodemus. Before the new day of Thursday would start, Jesus and Dismas [the repenting thief] had descended into the paradise of Sheol [Abraham’s Bosom] and would be there three days and three nights.

Mat 27:50-54
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

As Jesus accomplished His mission of releasing the justified from Sheol He gave them the celestial bodies of everlasting life in His kingdom of heaven. After His mission in the center of this earth was accomplished He then ascended from Sheol with another earth quake to appear to this world just as He prophesized.

Mat 28:1-2 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Now what I meant by the heart of the earth is -----
If all is true of what I have said then Jesus could not have been dead for three days and three nights. If His mission was to be in Sheol [paradise] for those three days and three nights then He could not have lain in a tomb for three days and three nights nor could He have been killed on a Friday and risen on a Sunday as is presented by some religions.

The KJV scriptures tell us that Jesus did not simply lay dead and unconscious for seventy two hours but Had a purpose in introducing the kingdom of heaven to this creation through His new covenant of celestial everlasting life. That was His mission in appearing to this creation from the onset.

All of this creation from that time to the end of this world do not descend into Sheol. As people die they are immediately judged and the righteous ascend into the kingdom of heaven while the unjust will continue to descend into Sheol/Hell . Paradise was taken from Sheol during the seventy two hours of Jesus' mission and is now in the kingdom of heaven. Paradise is necessary for everlasting life and always has been.



posted on Aug, 22 2019 @ 07:42 PM
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a reply to: Seede

Thanks for the reply.

Louis Ginzberg - The Legends of the Jews, is a fascinating piece of literature. I have read only small portions of that work. Today I read more passages about the creation revolving around Adam and Eve. As you have said, it looks like it supports the theory that paradise was at one time with Sheol. This was the place where man went after he died.

Chapter 2: Adam and Eve in paradise
"The Garden of Eden was the abode of the first man and woman, and the souls of all men must pass through it after death, before they reach their final destination. For the souls of the departed must go through seven portals before they arrive in the heaven 'Arabot. There the souls of the pious are transformed into angels, and there they remain forever, praising God and feasting their sight upon the glory of the Shekinah. "

www.sacred-texts.com...

Please don't take offense but I have a hard time believing the content in the LOTJ. I prefer to use the bible as the basic source of truth and then see what content in LOTJ complements that line of thought. I feel the Rabbis of old distorted the real history with their oral stories.

For example, the following passage from LOTJ has truth within it but it is in error at the same time.

"The flood was produced by a union of the male waters, which are above the firmament, and the female waters issuing from the earth. The upper waters rushed through the space left when God removed two stars out of the constellation Pleiades. Afterward, to put a stop to the flood, God had to transfer two stars from the constellation of the Bear to the constellation of the Pleiades. That is why the Bear runs after the Pleiades. She wants her two children back, but they will be restored to her only in the future world."

At face value this is interesting but it makes no sense in relation to earth and the flood. The Pleiades is too far to effect the earth so there must be missing details and or errors in the oral story. You can find the answer only if the spirit reveals it.



posted on Aug, 25 2019 @ 11:54 AM
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a reply to: lostinspace


"The flood was produced by a union of the male waters, which are above the firmament, and the female waters issuing from the earth. The upper waters rushed through the space left when God removed two stars out of the constellation

I also have many problems with rabbinic philosophy. The heavenly host of this universe does not have souls nor spirits of everlasting life and have no order of authority given by its Creator. In lite of this it is not true to imagine that stars or any form of heavenly body can have the ability to want her two children back nor will they be restored to her only in the future world.

As is taught by both Jesus and His brother Jacob [James the Just] this creation of this universe [which is earth] will vaporize back to the Creator.

2Peter_3:10,12
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? The doctrine of the Jews is not the doctrine of Jesus.

Now as far as upper waters and lower waters in the great flood of Noah are concerned there is some truth in this portion of Ginzberg. Always remember that Ginzberg wrote only from tradition and much of what he wrote is not in accord with the Tanakh or Torah.

The KJV scriptures tell us that as the firmament [our space of air] was created and the waters were divided, it left this world in a canopy of water both below and above our world. This canopy lasted for near on 1600 years of time or till that canopy of water began to become the first water [rain] to ever fall on this world. It took forty days and forty nights for that canopy to empty itself upon this earth. As the universe was exposed to Noah and the worlds shelves of plates were broken by the weight of the waters, the world became over seventy percent water covered and much larger or heaver.

Genesis 1:5-7
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

In effect then, it is scriptural that the waters above did produce the first rain upon this earth and that this exposed this world from a closed to an open environment. It also changed the laws of physics of this world such as had been enjoyed as a greenhouse and had influenced the longevity of life. So in that sense I agree somewhat with rabbinical teachings but not completely. In my opinion the rabbis should only expound that of the prophets and not create a Talmud of opinions. Jesus never taught through rabbinical teachings.




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