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We should give Progressives EVERYTHING they want.

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posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 08:28 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Yang has been discussing replacing income tax with VAT taxes. Which in my opinion (however incredibly unlikely the robbers in DC would approve) is a far better approach and makes dodging taxes much harder. Even illegal workers have to pay.

So Democrats and Republicans would never vote for a fair system of taxation.

Personally I think the idea of VAT only taxation with a basic income makes logical sense and cleans up a lot of bureaucratic mess but again there is no way people getting 27k a year in benefits are going to want a 12k basic income.

Edit I am not in favor of a vat on top of income tax unless its drugs like marijuana, tobacco, alcohol, gambling etc.. Those taxes should be used for the damage inflicted to society and not state profit so the taxes don't create a black market.
edit on 24-7-2019 by luthier because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 08:35 AM
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A vat would be even more regressive than our current tax scheme and the wealthy elite would love it. I’d prefer a 9% tax on total income from all sources. That’s a fair burden and could cover al the social programs people need, and would lessen inequality as well.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 08:37 AM
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Naturally that projection would have to be with closed loopholes, and would have to apply to anyone doing business in the us, and would apply to all inheritance and capital gains as well.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 08:44 AM
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a reply to: pexx421

Wealthy elites love any form of taxation because they have the resources to hide money and cheat. Same as a percentage of the poor take advantage of welfare and food stamps. Elites buy stuff. They get taxed. They by more stuff...how much money are willing to pay on enforcement and beauracracy to research every elites income? That is all waste that can be directly given to people in a basic income. Flat taxes are better than current systems but we shouldn't make people want to hide income or deincentivize work. Income tax just isn't very efficient. People lie and enforcement is costly.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 08:49 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: pexx421

Wealthy elites love any form of taxation because they have the resources to hide money and cheat. Same as a percentage of the poor take advantage of welfare and food stamps. Elites buy stuff. They get taxed. They by more stuff...how much money are willing to pay on enforcement and beauracracy to research every elites income? That is all waste that can be directly given to people in a basic income. Flat taxes are better than current systems but we shouldn't make people want to hide income or deincentivize work. Income tax just isn't very efficient. People lie and enforcement is costly.



You should run for President on the Dire Straits platform. Get your money for nothing... and your chicks for free!



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 08:52 AM
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LA, San Fran, Chicago, NY. The liberals pretty much have everything they want in those cities already.

Just imagine the rest of the USA as Chicago.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 08:55 AM
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originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: pexx421

Wealthy elites love any form of taxation because they have the resources to hide money and cheat. Same as a percentage of the poor take advantage of welfare and food stamps. Elites buy stuff. They get taxed. They by more stuff...how much money are willing to pay on enforcement and beauracracy to research every elites income? That is all waste that can be directly given to people in a basic income. Flat taxes are better than current systems but we shouldn't make people want to hide income or deincentivize work. Income tax just isn't very efficient. People lie and enforcement is costly.



You should run for President on the Dire Straits platform. Get your money for nothing... and your chicks for free!


It's not for free you get taxed for it. I get taxed more than 12k a year.

We have a safety net right now giving much more free money than 12k a year. Why not give it to all Americans. If you loose your job or need to move it's a little help. If you make 35k a year at a crap job now you make 47k.

If you want 6 roommates and play videogames go for it. Those people already exist and take far more. With the edition of people who dont want to be there but the benefits stop if they get a job or go back to school...

Your argument doesn't make sense.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 09:15 AM
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originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: pexx421

Wealthy elites love any form of taxation because they have the resources to hide money and cheat. Same as a percentage of the poor take advantage of welfare and food stamps. Elites buy stuff. They get taxed. They by more stuff...how much money are willing to pay on enforcement and beauracracy to research every elites income? That is all waste that can be directly given to people in a basic income. Flat taxes are better than current systems but we shouldn't make people want to hide income or deincentivize work. Income tax just isn't very efficient. People lie and enforcement is costly.



You should run for President on the Dire Straits platform. Get your money for nothing... and your chicks for free!
And this is the problem with the republican paradigm. When we the people want something back from the money we pay into the system, it’s considered “free stuff”. But when corporations, shareholders and CEOs want a free lunch taken from the working people who produce it, it’s called “good business”. Backwards thinking.

If I produce 100k from my work this year, and my company takes 50k of it. Then over the next 10 years my productivity goes up to 600k a year, and the company takes 500k of it? That’s theft. If I pay 20k in taxes and that money is spent subsidizing Amazon or chevron or gm who pay no taxes? That’s theft. We need affordable healthcare. We don’t need amazon or gm or chevron.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 09:33 AM
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originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: pexx421

Wealthy elites love any form of taxation because they have the resources to hide money and cheat. Same as a percentage of the poor take advantage of welfare and food stamps. Elites buy stuff. They get taxed. They by more stuff...how much money are willing to pay on enforcement and beauracracy to research every elites income? That is all waste that can be directly given to people in a basic income. Flat taxes are better than current systems but we shouldn't make people want to hide income or deincentivize work. Income tax just isn't very efficient. People lie and enforcement is costly.



You should run for President on the Dire Straits platform. Get your money for nothing... and your chicks for free!
And this is the problem with the republican paradigm. When we the people want something back from the money we pay into the system, it’s considered “free stuff”. But when corporations, shareholders and CEOs want a free lunch taken from the working people who produce it, it’s called “good business”. Backwards thinking.

If I produce 100k from my work this year, and my company takes 50k of it. Then over the next 10 years my productivity goes up to 600k a year, and the company takes 500k of it? That’s theft. If I pay 20k in taxes and that money is spent subsidizing Amazon or chevron or gm who pay no taxes? That’s theft. We need affordable healthcare. We don’t need amazon or gm or chevron.


So let me see if I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that if your company makes a profit from your labor that you consider that theft, even though you could quit and start your own business at any time? But you don't see the government taking half your earnings through taxes that you are forced to pay or go to jail as theft?



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 09:36 AM
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a reply to: MRinder

Seems like a red herring. He said 9 percent not 50.

Does this company use roads, lights, the power grid, shipping lanes etc?



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 09:42 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: MRinder

Seems like a red herring. He said 9 percent not 50.

Does this company use roads, lights, the power grid, shipping lanes etc?


Well currently they are taking at least 50% when you count all taxes, so how do you plan to give UBI of 12k dollars to everyone plus government paid for healthcare when we are already running a deficit every year without raising taxes?

Of course they use roads, lights, power grid, etc. On the flip side I am sure their tax returns are just following the letter of the tax laws.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 10:22 AM
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originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: pexx421

Wealthy elites love any form of taxation because they have the resources to hide money and cheat. Same as a percentage of the poor take advantage of welfare and food stamps. Elites buy stuff. They get taxed. They by more stuff...how much money are willing to pay on enforcement and beauracracy to research every elites income? That is all waste that can be directly given to people in a basic income. Flat taxes are better than current systems but we shouldn't make people want to hide income or deincentivize work. Income tax just isn't very efficient. People lie and enforcement is costly.



You should run for President on the Dire Straits platform. Get your money for nothing... and your chicks for free!
And this is the problem with the republican paradigm. When we the people want something back from the money we pay into the system, it’s considered “free stuff”. But when corporations, shareholders and CEOs want a free lunch taken from the working people who produce it, it’s called “good business”. Backwards thinking.

If I produce 100k from my work this year, and my company takes 50k of it. Then over the next 10 years my productivity goes up to 600k a year, and the company takes 500k of it? That’s theft. If I pay 20k in taxes and that money is spent subsidizing Amazon or chevron or gm who pay no taxes? That’s theft. We need affordable healthcare. We don’t need amazon or gm or chevron.


So let me see if I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that if your company makes a profit from your labor that you consider that theft, even though you could quit and start your own business at any time? But you don't see the government taking half your earnings through taxes that you are forced to pay or go to jail as theft?


Does that look like what I said? I believe I pointed out clearly, and I’ll spell it for you, that across the USA, businesses arbitrarily giving themselves more of the money generated by the increased productivity that I create while giving nothing in return? Where we have little power to do anything about it because they lobbied legislation destroying workers rights and representation? That’s theft.

On the other hand, the govt charging me taxes, and providing something in return for it, that would cost way more if I had to pay private corporations to do it? No, that’s not theft.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: MRinder

Wow. I don't even know where to start. I won't bother with your drivel for now except for #11. Nobody is advocating late-term abortion. That's a false right-wing propaganda.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 10:43 AM
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originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: pexx421

Wealthy elites love any form of taxation because they have the resources to hide money and cheat. Same as a percentage of the poor take advantage of welfare and food stamps. Elites buy stuff. They get taxed. They by more stuff...how much money are willing to pay on enforcement and beauracracy to research every elites income? That is all waste that can be directly given to people in a basic income. Flat taxes are better than current systems but we shouldn't make people want to hide income or deincentivize work. Income tax just isn't very efficient. People lie and enforcement is costly.



You should run for President on the Dire Straits platform. Get your money for nothing... and your chicks for free!
And this is the problem with the republican paradigm. When we the people want something back from the money we pay into the system, it’s considered “free stuff”. But when corporations, shareholders and CEOs want a free lunch taken from the working people who produce it, it’s called “good business”. Backwards thinking.

If I produce 100k from my work this year, and my company takes 50k of it. Then over the next 10 years my productivity goes up to 600k a year, and the company takes 500k of it? That’s theft. If I pay 20k in taxes and that money is spent subsidizing Amazon or chevron or gm who pay no taxes? That’s theft. We need affordable healthcare. We don’t need amazon or gm or chevron.


If your productivity goes up to $600k and you are only making $50k, then you need to quit and find a new job.

I work in sales on commission. We literally have people who make as little as $30k /yr up to around $2 million / yr doing the same exact job. Most Wall Street workers you guys hate so much are compensated with bonuses based on revenue / profits.

I don't know of any job where a worker can generate that kind of money and is not compensated for it. You are talking out of your back side. If a worker can miraculously go from producing $100k to $600k, they'd either be promoted or poached by a competitor.

I get calls literally EVERY SINGLE DAY from competitors in my industry trying to get me to bring my book of business. I'm above average in my industry, but hardly a "rock star".



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 10:46 AM
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originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: pexx421

Wealthy elites love any form of taxation because they have the resources to hide money and cheat. Same as a percentage of the poor take advantage of welfare and food stamps. Elites buy stuff. They get taxed. They by more stuff...how much money are willing to pay on enforcement and beauracracy to research every elites income? That is all waste that can be directly given to people in a basic income. Flat taxes are better than current systems but we shouldn't make people want to hide income or deincentivize work. Income tax just isn't very efficient. People lie and enforcement is costly.



You should run for President on the Dire Straits platform. Get your money for nothing... and your chicks for free!
And this is the problem with the republican paradigm. When we the people want something back from the money we pay into the system, it’s considered “free stuff”. But when corporations, shareholders and CEOs want a free lunch taken from the working people who produce it, it’s called “good business”. Backwards thinking.

If I produce 100k from my work this year, and my company takes 50k of it. Then over the next 10 years my productivity goes up to 600k a year, and the company takes 500k of it? That’s theft. If I pay 20k in taxes and that money is spent subsidizing Amazon or chevron or gm who pay no taxes? That’s theft. We need affordable healthcare. We don’t need amazon or gm or chevron.


So let me see if I understand what you are saying. Are you saying that if your company makes a profit from your labor that you consider that theft, even though you could quit and start your own business at any time? But you don't see the government taking half your earnings through taxes that you are forced to pay or go to jail as theft?


Does that look like what I said? I believe I pointed out clearly, and I’ll spell it for you, that across the USA, businesses arbitrarily giving themselves more of the money generated by the increased productivity that I create while giving nothing in return? Where we have little power to do anything about it because they lobbied legislation destroying workers rights and representation? That’s theft.

On the other hand, the govt charging me taxes, and providing something in return for it, that would cost way more if I had to pay private corporations to do it? No, that’s not theft.


Well based on your answer i would have to say it looks exactly like what you said.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 10:51 AM
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originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: MRinder

Seems like a red herring. He said 9 percent not 50.

Does this company use roads, lights, the power grid, shipping lanes etc?


Well currently they are taking at least 50% when you count all taxes, so how do you plan to give UBI of 12k dollars to everyone plus government paid for healthcare when we are already running a deficit every year without raising taxes?

Of course they use roads, lights, power grid, etc. On the flip side I am sure their tax returns are just following the letter of the tax laws.


The ubi cancels beuracratic cost. Like I said welfare and disability are incredibly inefficient.

The. There is the case of companies like Amazon who can use loopholes by "reinvestment" .

What happens to a town in Michigan when 50k people are layed off? How inefficient is unemployment?

12k is also unlikely to be put into bank accounts judging by the american consumer credit mode. So its again put into the economy. The middle class in particular would benefit for a change. While also giving money to buy upgrades etc..

It highly unlikely 12k is going to make people who currently want to work stop working to live in poverty. They will however get a boost.

Of coarse it could all be a wash. I do know having percentage algorithms dont require billions in salary to delegate however.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 11:00 AM
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originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: MRinder

Seems like a red herring. He said 9 percent not 50.

Does this company use roads, lights, the power grid, shipping lanes etc?


Well currently they are taking at least 50% when you count all taxes, so how do you plan to give UBI of 12k dollars to everyone plus government paid for healthcare when we are already running a deficit every year without raising taxes?

Of course they use roads, lights, power grid, etc. On the flip side I am sure their tax returns are just following the letter of the tax laws.


The ubi cancels beuracratic cost. Like I said welfare and disability are incredibly inefficient.

The. There is the case of companies like Amazon who can use loopholes by "reinvestment" .

What happens to a town in Michigan when 50k people are layed off? How inefficient is unemployment?

12k is also unlikely to be put into bank accounts judging by the american consumer credit mode. So its again put into the economy. The middle class in particular would benefit for a change. While also giving money to buy upgrades etc..

It highly unlikely 12k is going to make people who currently want to work stop working to live in poverty. They will however get a boost.

Of coarse it could all be a wash. I do know having percentage algorithms dont require billions in salary to delegate however.


The problem is even with UBI, the welfare state will still continue. You will always have the idiots who blow their $12k on blow and hookers. Then what? Is the progressive left going to let them starve?

I could get behind the UBI, if there were NONE. ZIP. NADA. welfare programs at the federal level. Move it all to the state and local level. If people screw up their UBI grant, then let them deal with their local community.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 11:18 AM
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originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: pexx421

originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: pexx421

Wealthy elites love any form of taxation because they have the resources to hide money and cheat. Same as a percentage of the poor take advantage of welfare and food stamps. Elites buy stuff. They get taxed. They by more stuff...how much money are willing to pay on enforcement and beauracracy to research every elites income? That is all waste that can be directly given to people in a basic income. Flat taxes are better than current systems but we shouldn't make people want to hide income or deincentivize work. Income tax just isn't very efficient. People lie and enforcement is costly.



You should run for President on the Dire Straits platform. Get your money for nothing... and your chicks for free!
And this is the problem with the republican paradigm. When we the people want something back from the money we pay into the system, it’s considered “free stuff”. But when corporations, shareholders and CEOs want a free lunch taken from the working people who produce it, it’s called “good business”. Backwards thinking.

If I produce 100k from my work this year, and my company takes 50k of it. Then over the next 10 years my productivity goes up to 600k a year, and the company takes 500k of it? That’s theft. If I pay 20k in taxes and that money is spent subsidizing Amazon or chevron or gm who pay no taxes? That’s theft. We need affordable healthcare. We don’t need amazon or gm or chevron.


If your productivity goes up to $600k and you are only making $50k, then you need to quit and find a new job.

I work in sales on commission. We literally have people who make as little as $30k /yr up to around $2 million / yr doing the same exact job. Most Wall Street workers you guys hate so much are compensated with bonuses based on revenue / profits.

I don't know of any job where a worker can generate that kind of money and is not compensated for it. You are talking out of your back side. If a worker can miraculously go from producing $100k to $600k, they'd either be promoted or poached by a competitor.

I get calls literally EVERY SINGLE DAY from competitors in my industry trying to get me to bring my book of business. I'm above average in my industry, but hardly a "rock star".


Why do you act like this is unfamiliar or unheard of? This is exactly what has happened to our whole economy over the last 30 years. Productivity has gone up massively, and yet all the increased profit from that productivity has been completely taken by the owners, management, etc.
for me, I’m not talking out of my ass. My field 20 years ago pulled in about 100k for the hospital annually. Now I pull in about 1mil a year for the company. But my pay is not 10x what this position paid 20 years ago. Now, extrapolate this to society because that’s what all the statistics clearly show. As to quitting and going it alone, sure. Except for all the barriers the big boys put into place to keep competition from cropping up via lobbied legislation of regulations and such that are a pittance to a large corporation but insurmountable to a wage peon. It’s the same in agriculture, dairy, medicine, telecoms, oil, etc. But I’m sure you’ve never heard of any of this.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 11:21 AM
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originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: MRinder

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: MRinder

Seems like a red herring. He said 9 percent not 50.

Does this company use roads, lights, the power grid, shipping lanes etc?


Well currently they are taking at least 50% when you count all taxes, so how do you plan to give UBI of 12k dollars to everyone plus government paid for healthcare when we are already running a deficit every year without raising taxes?

Of course they use roads, lights, power grid, etc. On the flip side I am sure their tax returns are just following the letter of the tax laws.


The ubi cancels beuracratic cost. Like I said welfare and disability are incredibly inefficient.

The. There is the case of companies like Amazon who can use loopholes by "reinvestment" .

What happens to a town in Michigan when 50k people are layed off? How inefficient is unemployment?

12k is also unlikely to be put into bank accounts judging by the american consumer credit mode. So its again put into the economy. The middle class in particular would benefit for a change. While also giving money to buy upgrades etc..

It highly unlikely 12k is going to make people who currently want to work stop working to live in poverty. They will however get a boost.

Of coarse it could all be a wash. I do know having percentage algorithms dont require billions in salary to delegate however.


The problem is even with UBI, the welfare state will still continue. You will always have the idiots who blow their $12k on blow and hookers. Then what? Is the progressive left going to let them starve?

I could get behind the UBI, if there were NONE. ZIP. NADA. welfare programs at the federal level. Move it all to the state and local level. If people screw up their UBI grant, then let them deal with their local community.


I agree...

I also completely offer that as a problem and have no idea if it could work.

It is however theoretically a far more beneficial safety net for the total people of the country and should allow doogooders opportunity to donate their ubi.

It also may be a different pressure form society knowing for sure people are getting money. Welfare and disability are constantly being used as leverage against people so its unknown who gets what. Does crazy uncle Jim get welfare or is he too out of his mind to do the constant paperwork.

Or the person who wants to do good and work but 30k plus child care doesnt make sense...

It isn't magic. It's just possibly better.

Or not. Paying 3 people to get someone a disability check seems pretty stupid though. Or having to pretend your hurt until you are finished moving to the new job.



posted on Jul, 24 2019 @ 11:21 AM
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a reply to: luthier


The ubi cancels beuracratic cost. Like I said welfare and disability are incredibly inefficient.

So giving welfare and disability to a subset of people is more inefficient than giving it to everyoone?


The. There is the case of companies like Amazon who can use loopholes by "reinvestment" .

Should companies not be allowed to deduct their costs of doing business and not be able to decide what are the best decisions for their companies long term health?


What happens to a town in Michigan when 50k people are layed off? How inefficient is unemployment?

Seems relatively efficient. Companies pay into the fund and money is paid to employees when they are laid off. Then once laid off the company is charged additional fees based on the cost of their former employees unemployment.



12k is also unlikely to be put into bank accounts judging by the american consumer credit mode. So its again put into the economy. The middle class in particular would benefit for a change. While also giving money to buy upgrades etc..

What kind of upgrades are we talking? Like the kick ass Bose speaker package upgrade for a new car or upgrades to first class seats on a flight? This money is also taken out of the economy to pay for the UBI and taxes on the added economic activity will not replace all the money that is spent on UBI. It's impossible. It's what I like to refer to as Progressive math.


It highly unlikely 12k is going to make people who currently want to work stop working to live in poverty. They will however get a boost.

This money has to come from somewhere unless you just plan on running up deficits and printing more money so it's hard to see where this net boost is coming from. It's just shuffling around money.



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